high pressure aero diy skid...need help with electrical

boodadood · Oct 2, 2011

foresakenlion said:
BD if we were anal about the 100 psi being directly behind the mister could we use as an example a 200 psi pump + accumulator to regulators @ 100 psi before the solenoid directly mounted to the mister, this could potentially overcome a lot of issues in custom scenarios by giving leaveway.

not sure i follow ya on this one...why would you want to put a 100 psi differential across the regulator?

foresakenlion said:
BD your description was very helpful, to me and I'm sure it will be to others.

no prob...i like to be clear about these things to avoid over spending and wasted time

foresakenlion said:
20" isn't enough to allow your strain to potential, all but the smallest plants will want more height. Scrog them if you go this route to avoid overgrowth issues.

I always scrog in the current tent i have...i pretty much have to even using 5 gallon buckets...i dont really thread the growth in and over the screen, i just sort of use the screen to LST them under it, if that makes any sense

foresakenlion said:
If you search your local stores they sell these yard waste tub/buckets, usually with rope handles on them for around a dollar, they have a good depth over a foot, and more than a foot in diameter, add a cover and there you go.

i know exactly what youre talking about...ive used them to ice kegs of beer before!

foresakenlion said:
Long term though, and for my upgrade, I'm thinking those sanitation tubs with the drains pre-installed are very nice, and fish and reptile terrariums, especially have the depth. But all the pre-fabricated solutions are expensive, sans the above if valid.

Cyclinders would make excellent chambers, I found some MET classification, ABS and PET sewer pipe w/ large diameters, while on the hunt for larger orfice couplers, after being inspired to use them by PF. I've seen them before used with neoprene, but never had an occasion to incorporate. My list of couplers got nuked though by a HD crash, so after I compile that I'll make sure to update the thread, for the worlds edification.

More tradtional methods of building flood tables could be adapted easily, simply build your frame out of the materials of your choice, they don't need to be strong since this isn't really a table but a chamber, and it won't be storing mass amount of water, this of course could be accomplished by raising the table and DTW, or two pumps, each connected to their own triple float switch array, for triple redundancy on the switches, and double on the pumps. However, I have no experinece w/ though I am lead to believe, two sumps would achieve the same redundancy and function. DTW is the easiest obviously but, to automate it you still need the above, so to each his pleasure on that one.

The darkness of our chambers hasn't been discussed, darker is most definitely better, perhaps not to see residues, but to reduce the growth of algae, and therefore effluent, that's what the slime is, be it from the beneficial microbes, or the plant its self, H2O2 can be used safely as it will not harm beneficials, they will merely metabolize the free radical oxygen.

PF reflectix will darken your chamber & block 98% of the IR if you insulate w/ it, should solve your issues.

Speaking of reflectix, BD, having bought tents, I advise you to simply go buy 1" framing posts, braces or not depending on your screw skills, some stiff sheeting ply wood or otherwise, some reflectix, or other insulation, the spray quick stuff foam works great, but you'll never get it off what you put it on. Basically frame it, put the reflectix and you've got your insulation and reflector, or put your backing up, having filled the inside with whatever insulation, then use flat white w/ extra titanmium dioxide from the art supply store, either way is more affordable and less conspicious, the flat white with the extra td, can actually get your reflectivity into the higher ninety-nine percentile, far less expensive than hammered aluminum and cheaper

BD you will repay your investment quickly, especially with CO2 enrichment, you can run your temps higher with the plants krebs cycle maximized.

Don't know if you guys have seen these ShelfLink, and Blitz 2x4 kits around, but definitely check them out, I did a double take when I saw them, as there's so many times in this hobby you need a sturdy piece of furniture.

thanks for the input lion...ive moved away from the wood design at this point, too much of a PITA and just asking for problems IMO...usplastics.com has many options to choose from...most are very expensive however which is how i ended up on the rubbermaid brute trash bins...i was originally thinking about the grey ones that you see everywhere but i saw the white ones and thought of light reflection instead of absorption...the white root chamber will be cooler than the grey root chamber as the grey will hold more heat...but the white ones may also let too much light through and help propagate algae/slime growth...these things are important to consider when choosing the right root chamber so thank you for bringing the topic up

BD

boodadood · Oct 2, 2011

foresakenlion said:
Guys having a problem finding a pressure switch, have the one that BD mentioned but it's 1/4" and all my other components I've sourced so far are 3/8" inch to this point, found Aquatecs PDF, none of the model numbers sync with anything I actually find being sold, is the PSW 240 comparable to the PSW 100X they define in their PDF?

the aquatec models numbers have an X in them on the PDF...if you want 1/4" connections the X turns into a 2...if you want 3/8" connections, the X turns into a 3

if youre looking at the PSW X100 and you want it in 3/8" then you're looking for the PSW 3100

BD

boodadood · Oct 2, 2011

r0m30 said:
Short answer - No, the PSW240 is not comparable to the x100.

Long answer......
Yes the PDF is a little confusing. They list them as PSWx40 thru PSWx100. What you need to do is replace the "x" with a "2" for 1/4 inch quick connect fittings and a "3" for 3/8 inch quick connects. The 40-100 is the pressure that they come preset from the factory. So:
PSW240 - 1/4" quick connect preset to 40 PSI (adjustable from 30-60 PSI)
PSW340 - 3/8" quick connect preset to 40 PSI (adjustable from 30-60 PSI)

PSW280 - 1/4" quick connect preset to 80 PSI (adjustable from 70-110 PSI)
PSW380 - 3/8" quick connect preset to 80 PSI (adjustable from 70-110 PSI)

What they don't tell you is that the deadband is preset to ~20PSI. And the pressure range they list is the cut in pressure.

You don's say what pressure you're planning on running but you need to chose the model that fits your desired pressure (the PSWx100 is really hard to find). I'm running a PSW280 and have it adjusted to cut-in @ 100PSI and cut out at 120PSI .

I'd guess you would want either the PSW380 or the PSW3100. As for sources of the PSW380, Freshwater claims to have them (I'll refrain from a rant as TB has had good luck with them) and there are a few sellers on ebay that also have them. I've yet to find anyone that sells either size of the PSWx100.

i think i just answered his question have you already answered it! whoops! thats what i get for going one at a time like an old man

boodadood · Oct 2, 2011

lion, some people have had bad experiences with freshwatersystems.com...just a heads up...and you list the aquatec psw and link to the dywer

i also ran across the TeeJet PRV...im hesitant to go for it...looks cheap...the stainless ones on ebay that Trichy found look better built and dont cost that much either

BD

PetFlora · Oct 3, 2011

BB: The heat literally destroyed the root hairs in the course of a day, so sadly, the images are only in my mind. As to the swivel arm, it's all part of the design. Indispensable to me.

One of the biggest lessons I have learned (and the most recent) is that the table top needs good heat insulation from the lights. In my case, the heat was penetrating into the pod chamber and cooking the roots. This, probably more than the ambient heat, has held me back. DOH This is where the DIY Rubbermaid top fails, but is easily resolved by replaciing it with stiff insulated material to make a new table top, or maybe just a layer of Reflectix.

Regarding off the shelf pods, whichever one you are looking at, turn it over. Use the bottom as your top. Just keep the open portion close to the floor so light doesn't get inside and you have saved a bunch of time. I am not doing this, but it occurred to me*. Plus most off the shelf containers are wider at the bottom than the top, so flipping them over provides mature roots (and mist) with more room.

* I use mortar mixing tubs under my pods as a safety valve to contain any spills. They are < $8 at HD/Lowes. They are black, so you could turn a large garbage can upside down over them and use them for your runoff. Use a small shop vac to suck it up. hth

foresakenlion · Oct 3, 2011

For the pressure gauge after the accumulator, is the connection male or female? all I can find is NPT as a description, all my line runs as diagrammed are 3/8 JG up to this point, need to know to source a mid point fitting.

Here's the thing guys, I'm running kelp, kelp includes nearly all elements in some amount, radioisotopes, gold, silver, etc, I'm not so sure about stainless not reacting with the rarer elements, better to go with the plastic, last I checked stainless steel isn't food grade anything.

Again can't recommend yED enough, my diagram mock up in this vs visio was infinitely faster, and that's pathetic considering this is free, and that is a fortune. yED FTW.

I'm if-y on Ebay anything because of rotating availability, but I'd be open to it, it's just everytime you change one component you spend a lot of time switching connections.

For example check these out

I'm going to assume this is a male, and figure it out, line it up and post.
http://www.betavalve.com/PDFs/RPF_push_fit_valves.PDF

inline John Guest Solenoids, no idea where to buy.

I'm going to post the diagram once I get it where I think I need to be, I'd thank yous to give it a once over point out any errors. Then once it's perfected, I'll post it in the other aero threads to help the other new people. Proper credit given where due of course.

boodadood · Oct 3, 2011

lion, i just mentioned in TB's thread that the connections are male NPTs on the gauges...i also mentioned the grainger gauges could very well contain wetted brass/bronze parts and ive sinced moved away from using them...i need to find an all stainless gauge...food grade process equipment is often stainless...usually their manufacturing specifications are much tighter than non-food grade equipment made from other stainless steels...there are also tons of plastic food grade parts as well...thats neither here nor there but i thought i would point it out jic

i also ran into those beta valves in my sourcing travels and couldnt find a vendor to buy from either...right now my bill of materials has the STC valves..the 2P series...part number 2P025 1/4....they are cheaper than the stainless ones TB picked up but im hoping they have a nice build to them seeing how the stainless ones he posted look so nice...im using 4 valves so going to the stainless valves would run me a few extra bucks i dont feel like parting with at the moment...but who knows i may just pull the trigger on em anyway when it comes down to it

i use AutoCAD for all my 2D work and AutoDesk Inventor for the 3D...the yED program looks pretty nifty for making flow charts to use in presentations etc but im wondering how much "M.E.P." detail it actually has...looking forward to your post

BD

Trichy Bastard · Oct 4, 2011

boodadood said:
ok so it all starts with the 20 gallon rubbermaid brute trash bins..the white ones...im going to install 2 misters in each bin and have 2 bins...i checked the dimensions and even if i put them on cinderblocks to drain the bins, i will still have about 20" each for the top of the plant and the root mass...i know its not much but its what im workin with here...im going to scrog..if that helps we'll see...but im hoping the extra diameter of the trash bins allows the roots to hang freely and the mist to circulate well inside...i can always play with the timing or hook up some sort of exhaust system to vent out mist on a timer if it gets too stuffy in there

anyway, i take a bulkhead push to connect fitting and install it for each mister location...inside the bin i use a stem adapter to male npt to get me to a reducing coupling that i can screw the mister into...on the other side of the bulkhead is some tube leading to the valve...the valve will have a male npt x push to connect adapter fitting...im thinkin i would mount the valve directly under the bulkhead and use a small piece of tube to connect the two, getting the valve as close as possible

on the other side of the valve (not shown) would be tubing to a tee...that tee would have another identical valve/mister/tube assembly coming into it, using the same length tubes, with the back end of the tee heading back to another tee

that other tee would have the same exact double valve/mister/tube assembly coming into the other side of it with the back end going back to the regulator

im going to use 3/8" push to connect fittings from mcmaster because they are cheaper than JG, still rated for 150 psi, and easier for me to get

i actually have some tees and male adapters on the way already

i really appreciate all the feedback you guys are giving me on this shit...i know i keep flipflopping my design around but i want to get it right and i have some limitations i need to remember...that i wish i could forget!

even if i dont get the best lookin HPA roots out of the 20 gallon tubs, i can at least get my feet wet with hpa and look to improve on things for the future

thanks again all

BD

All good, and amazing pics again- so professional

... Anyway, just don't forget that your prime focus is being able to keep the correct amount of mist on the roots, the chamber size, and everything else are pieces of the equation... Do you plan to have your misters so low? In the sidewalls should be fine, but up near the top will likely be best so gravity can help the mist disperse. The mist is so fine- that it does not come out with force and shoow out as much as you'd think. As the roots grow down, the will also block the misters causing those lower areas to get soaked, and the upper portions to get dry the way I imagine it.

Trichy Bastard · Oct 4, 2011

foresakenlion said:
Guys having a problem finding a pressure switch, have the one that BD mentioned but it's 1/4" and all my other components I've sourced so far are 3/8" inch to this point, found Aquatecs PDF, none of the model numbers sync with anything I actually find being sold, is the PSW 240 comparable to the PSW 100X they define in their PDF? If not, or if you just have the stats of it please share. Otherwise I'm going with BD's suggestion for simplicity.

I highly suggest to those that try to build one of these download yED or another diagramming software, lay out your system, and all the connections, otherwise you'll be a-wash in a see of connections.

You don't need a PS with a larger diameter. It's just a short run of dead end tubing to sample the pressure from. If the fluid had to pass through it and on to the misters, I'd be concerned, but this is not the case at all. Just get an adaptor and don't worry. A ps with 1/32 inputs would work fine just to sense pressure

...

boodadood · Oct 4, 2011

Trichy Bastard said:
All good, and amazing pics again- so professional ... Anyway, just don't forget that your prime focus is being able to keep the correct amount of mist on the roots, the chamber size, and everything else are pieces of the equation... Do you plan to have your misters so low? In the sidewalls should be fine, but up near the top will likely be best so gravity can help the mist disperse. The mist is so fine- that it does not come out with force and shoow out as much as you'd think. As the roots grow down, the will also block the misters causing those lower areas to get soaked, and the upper portions to get dry the way I imagine it.

i have access to the cad programs at home thru my job....inventor is very easy to use and has alot of the fittings premade in their library so its a point and click assembly...pretty cool and makes things crystal clear to me in an area that i have no specific experience in...i deal with plumbing horseshit all day at work but this is plumbing horseshit that will take my green hobby to a new level...i need to get it right the first time, at least the basic system components, cuz the limited budget im dealing with...every time i turn around my current rdwc grow i make changes that run me around 100 bucks or so...not bad for pretty much rebuilding the entire plumbing system each time...with the HPA its different...without the proper equipment up front, small changes down the road will lead to large expenses...we dont need a fortune teller for that one...so i appreciate the acknowledgement of my efforts and i hope its helping others out there that may not have the visual concepts down of what they may need in their system designs

the misters shown are so low because im planning on having a mister on each side of each bin...one up high right under where the net pot will be stationed and another down lower on the opposite side...the one shown is the lower one...perhaps too low as shown and a couple of more inches in height would be nice...i think a little R&D would be in order anyhow once i get the equipment in house...ideally id like to get things in and get them connected...tinker around with it and get the system dialed in...then actually go about installing it...and finally making the system tweaks necessary to get it into operation...id hate to make holes in things to find out the locations are off..then im either plugging holes or buying new shat...and ive already learned that lesson the hard way once before!

im watching your thread as well and im excited to hear you'll be putting things together soon...i think we're all anxiously awaiting it to be quite honest...lol

im still a bit out of purchasing on my end...it looks like the big stuff will end up going on order around the end of october for me

(

cheers

BD

PetFlora · Oct 5, 2011

HEADS UP: I have been battling a problem with a microbe colony taking up residence in my DMfit filter. They seem to grow over night, as every morning my plant would be wilted, and the run off jug almost empty. Checking the filter, it would be partially clogged. It seems since it is small it doesn't take a lot to interfer with the amount of nutes getting through during the feed cycles. I have run a cycle of H2O2 and used fresh mixed nutes, but the problem has persisted, and my plant has suffered.

BRAIN FART: I am going to try to incorporate my large (~ 6") 200 mesh in-line filter inside the rez. I had stopped using it (between rez and pump) because every time I opened it to clean the filter, it would leak, but that would not be a problem inside the rez.

The Rez bulkhead has a quick fit on both sides, so I simply cut the 1/4 tubing to fit. That was easy, though it runs from end to end, so I put a 1/4" elbow on it. Will see what it does to prevent the microbes from blocking the DMfit filter, which is between rez and pump. The DMfit may now be redundant.

Trichy Bastard · Oct 6, 2011

boodadood said:
i have access to the cad programs at home thru my job....inventor is very easy to use and has alot of the fittings premade in their library so its a point and click assembly...pretty cool and makes things crystal clear to me in an area that i have no specific experience in...i deal with plumbing horseshit all day at work but this is plumbing horseshit that will take my green hobby to a new level...i need to get it right the first time, at least the basic system components, cuz the limited budget im dealing with...every time i turn around my current rdwc grow i make changes that run me around 100 bucks or so...not bad for pretty much rebuilding the entire plumbing system each time...with the HPA its different...without the proper equipment up front, small changes down the road will lead to large expenses...we dont need a fortune teller for that one...so i appreciate the acknowledgement of my efforts and i hope its helping others out there that may not have the visual concepts down of what they may need in their system designs

the misters shown are so low because im planning on having a mister on each side of each bin...one up high right under where the net pot will be stationed and another down lower on the opposite side...the one shown is the lower one...perhaps too low as shown and a couple of more inches in height would be nice...i think a little R&D would be in order anyhow once i get the equipment in house...ideally id like to get things in and get them connected...tinker around with it and get the system dialed in...then actually go about installing it...and finally making the system tweaks necessary to get it into operation...id hate to make holes in things to find out the locations are off..then im either plugging holes or buying new shat...and ive already learned that lesson the hard way once before!

im watching your thread as well and im excited to hear you'll be putting things together soon...i think we're all anxiously awaiting it to be quite honest...lol

im still a bit out of purchasing on my end...it looks like the big stuff will end up going on order around the end of october for me (

cheers

BD

You're quite right about getting it right the first time to save money in the end- I also had came to this conclusion, and have witnessed others who tried to short cut and still are paying for it. If you place both misters in the same areas around the pod, but both on top you will get the best results. The mist is like a fog that disperses, and slowly floats down with gravity- you actually can use the gravity to your advantage, so it doesnt make sense to have any misters on the bottom- not to mention how the roots will obstruct the mist from the lower misters once they grow. Ironiclly people often report that the plants getting the most indirect mist do the best, so keep that in mind if it helps. You want to visualize filling the chamber equally with a fine fog, rather than shooting a spray directly at your roots- True hpa differs in this respect from other methods, but you do not want any droplets to form on the roots as much as reasonably possible. The droplets form a film that blocks all the efforts to make the 50 microm mist- as atomizer once said -it makes no sense to throw a bucket of paint on a canvas after you just airbrushed it- right?

foresakenlion · Oct 6, 2011

BD for example if you had an 800 psi tank, run to a manifold feeding 7 pressure regulators set @ 100 psi then you could run 7 units or 70 misters as an example off one central tank, you could accomplish the same thing with more pumps but an 800 psi misting pump is only around $300, John Guest's suggested hydrostatic pump is only around $300

boodadood · Oct 6, 2011

Trichy Bastard said:
You're quite right about getting it right the first time to save money in the end- I also had came to this conclusion, and have witnessed others who tried to short cut and still are paying for it. If you place both misters in the same areas around the pod, but both on top you will get the best results. The mist is like a fog that disperses, and slowly floats down with gravity- you actually can use the gravity to your advantage, so it doesnt make sense to have any misters on the bottom- not to mention how the roots will obstruct the mist from the lower misters once they grow. Ironiclly people often report that the plants getting the most indirect mist do the best, so keep that in mind if it helps. You want to visualize filling the chamber equally with a fine fog, rather than shooting a spray directly at your roots- True hpa differs in this respect from other methods, but you do not want any droplets to form on the roots as much as reasonably possible. The droplets form a film that blocks all the efforts to make the 50 microm mist- as atomizer once said -it makes no sense to throw a bucket of paint on a canvas after you just airbrushed it- right?

so what about misters that are about 6" from the bottom of the barrel and facing down, spraying towards the bottom of the bin...that way the only thing traveling upwards is the ultrafine mist that is bouncing around...the puddled water on the bottom can be separated by screen...what do you think?

boodadood · Oct 6, 2011

foresakenlion said:
BD for example if you had an 800 psi tank, run to a manifold feeding 7 pressure regulators set @ 100 psi then you could run 7 units or 70 misters as an example off one central tank, you could accomplish the same thing with more pumps but an 800 psi misting pump is only around $300, John Guest's suggested hydrostatic pump is only around $300

you could run 70 misters off of one 100 lb tank if you wanted to...keeping each one in parallel and still using only one regulator and the same size pump that we're already talking about...you dont need more pressure because you have more misters...you need more flow...and in the case of an accumulator tank system such as we've all been discussing, that just means a larger expansion tank....the pump is pumping the tank...the flow to the misters is a matter of your line size, line distance, and the flow rate at the given pressure you would like to run at

running at 800 psi is silly and doing it with 1000 regulators is even more nonsensical....you can feed a 1" pipe the has 3/8" tubes coming off it to feed a crap load of misters, with the tube lengths all being around the same lengths, and all misters will see the same pressure...or close enough to it...and the misters we are talking about are 80-100 psi...going up to something like 800 psi is a completely different class of plumbing and there are so many negatives for absolutely no positives

BD

Trichy Bastard · Oct 7, 2011

boodadood said:
so what about misters that are about 6" from the bottom of the barrel and facing down, spraying towards the bottom of the bin...that way the only thing traveling upwards is the ultrafine mist that is bouncing around...the puddled water on the bottom can be separated by screen...what do you think?

The mist doesn't really travel up so well, fine as it is, it is still affected by gravity. Cavadge quickly went back to the drawing board as his roots barely got wet when he tried misting from below initially.

Was going to respond to forsakenlion's comment, but you already explained it. Furthermore, high pressures cause heat which I believe in turn causes calcium to precipitate and buildup/clog inner components. The higher pressure equipment other than just the pump (accumulator, stainless steel lines, etc) is very expensive, and the pressure would be unwieldly to work with. Imagine the water hammer effect would be quite an issue. Since the mist nozzles we use have a very low flowrate, we can put quite a bit of them even on the 1/4 JG line without penalty.

foresakenlion · Oct 8, 2011

Nah not really, at those larger scales there's water hammer arrestors and all kinds of equipment BD knows about that could sort the issues we're dealing with, it's just on this scale the issues need different equipment. Would be cost prohibitive, seemed to work for John Guest though.

Trichy Bastard · Oct 8, 2011

foresakenlion said:
Nah not really, at those larger scales there's water hammer arrestors and all kinds of equipment BD knows about that could sort the issues we're dealing with, it's just on this scale the issues need different equipment. Would be cost prohibitive, seemed to work for John Guest though.

John Guest achieved higher pressures in the unregulated side of his system, but used a pressure regulator to reduce the pressures to his nozzles probably to around 100-120psi or so. He was not sending those high pressures to his nozzles. The pressure differential allowed him to go even longer between manual pump sessions due to the fact that the higher pressures in his accumulator translated into a bigger charge to feed the regulated side. The higher your unregulated pressure is than your final regulated output pressure, the smaller your accumulator can be while still going the same amount of time between pump cycles.

I have read that some commercial aeroponics systems use higher pressures than we do, but I don't really understand if there are any actual benefits to it. I can only see drawbacks in my understanding of things, but perhaps they have a reason, otherwise I wouldn't understand why they'd go to the extra trouble. If the pressures we use- create the mist in the optimal range, then that's all we need in my mind; anything else is just excessive and unnecessary. If anyone knows of any additioonal benefits of higher pressures, I'd be curious to hear why. Don't forget that high pressure water is very eroding, and you'll be going through mist nozzles quite fast at higher pressures. As soon as the orifice starts to widen, the mist gets progressivley coarser, and you are not getting the optimal droplet size or flowrate any longer.

high pressure aero diy skid...need help with electrical

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