I honestly believed.

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
No, you clearly did not read it.

Just shut up.
no i clearly DID read it, and it makes no sense without an all-powerful state adn the power of violence to sieze the "means of production".

nothing currently stops anyone from forming their own collective commune or whatever if they so desire, but the key to your "source authority" wikipedia on your imaginary "ploitical philosphy" is TAKING successful "menas of production" and turning them over to the collective (which is totally NOT the state... somehow)

your shit was disjointed, rambling, contradictory and made assumptions on the willingness of the owners of property to meekly surrender it. it was pure crap. like most wikipedia anarcho-________ism pages.
it was most likely written by a first year poli-sci major who is just entranced by the dream of utopian paradise.
in other words, a dipshit.

MY source is the well accepted Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital. not a wikipage full of meaningless drivel.

perhaps this is why your latest witty rejoinder is "just shut up".

also thanks fro bumping smok3y1 from the "most retarded juvenile and ludicrous reply i ever got" dais. wear your gold medal with pride mes ami.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
i have to wonder how they will wrest controll of the farms, mills, factories and mines from the current owners without some form of organized militant action... which would invariably lead to a "government" since as mao said, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."

certainly these bourgeois capitalist pigdogs will not simply turn over their property to the proletariat because they see the wisdom of submission to "scientific marxism" and anarcho-_______ism is the wave of the future.

sounds like we will need some radicalized armed revolutionaries to put some capitalist pigdogs up against the wall... for the good of the revolution.

now all we need is a leader.

one with a really cool beard.

like a goatee or maybe some HUGE muttonchops.
I think you're conflating the anarcho-libertarian idea with 19C Marxism. What I cannot tell is if you're doing this out of mirth or actual misapperception. In any case, it gets a bit old saying how you metaphorically hate turkey and back that by bringing a long string of anti-beef arguments. Jmo. cn
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
I think you're conflating the anarcho-libertarian idea with 19C Marxism. What I cannot tell is if you're doing this out of mirth or actual misapperception. In any case, it gets a bit old saying how you metaphorically hate turkey and back that by bringing a long string of anti-beef arguments. Jmo. cn
i looked into all these anarcho-________isms, and they are all really just good old fashioned marxist thought in a pretty new party dress.

none of them work as "political theories" without the basic foundation of marxism and the various communist internationals to shore up their structure.

and the basic STRUCTURE of all of them precludes anarchy.

they all wind up sounding like a lawyer's interpretation of what anarchy would be, if the lawyers made the anarcho-rules.

they all revolve around the utopian dream of a stateless world collective based on the utopian ideals which were terribly popular in the 19th century, but they all bear the distinctive hallmarks of Marxist utopia. predominantly the presumption of noble self-sacrifice for the good of the community as a natural human trait.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
no i clearly DID read it, and it makes no sense without an all-powerful state adn the power of violence to sieze the "means of production".

nothing currently stops anyone from forming their own collective commune or whatever if they so desire, but the key to your "source authority" wikipedia on your imaginary "ploitical philosphy" is TAKING successful "menas of production" and turning them over to the collective (which is totally NOT the state... somehow)

your shit was disjointed, rambling, contradictory and made assumptions on the willingness of the owners of property to meekly surrender it. it was pure crap. like most wikipedia anarcho-________ism pages.
it was most likely written by a first year poli-sci major who is just entranced by the dream of utopian paradise.
in other words, a dipshit.

MY source is the well accepted Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital. not a wikipage full of meaningless drivel.

perhaps this is why your latest witty rejoinder is "just shut up".

also thanks fro bumping smok3y1 from the "most retarded juvenile and ludicrous reply i ever got" dais. wear your gold medal with pride mes ami.
So rudimentary and facile. Your arguments always come attached to obvious flaw, it is clear you have been misled, indoctrinated for a lifetime and shown how to think by herd mentality.

OK, I think an example is due.

So, medicine, here is a market dominated by supply, where demand will always out weight supply. Now imagine if there were an herbal medicine that every single person could grow themselves. Also, imagine if said plant had 40,000+ other uses. This plant would be a means of production controlled by the masses which would obviate every bit of demand, balancing supply and giving people freedom from coercive control of means of production, no violent redistribution needed.

Oil, another market dominated by supply where a small few private individuals own the means of production of a finite resource. This is an easy fix, and within a generation the coercive control of this means of production could be alleviated giving the PEOPLE who demand energy independence from it. Technology solves this with out the need for any violent redistribution.

Last but not least by any means, I posit that the perpetrators of this perpetual control of resources and means of production are in fact the ones committing violent redistribution.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
i looked into all these anarcho-________isms, and they are all really just good old fashioned marxist thought in a pretty new party dress.

none of them work as "political theories" without the basic foundation of marxism and the various communist internationals to shore up their structure.

and the basic STRUCTURE of all of them precludes anarchy.

they all wind up sounding like a lawyer's interpretation of what anarchy would be, if the lawyers made the anarcho-rules.

they all revolve around the utopian dream of a stateless world collective based on the utopian ideals which were terribly popular in the 19th century, but they all bear the distinctive hallmarks of Marxist utopia. predominantly the presumption of noble self-sacrifice for the good of the community as a natural human trait.
This is one point (after I modify it a bit) where I emphatically agree with you. I consider the other political philosophies, e.g. the belief that unfettered market capitalism is somehow a good thing, to also be utopian. To me the hallmark isn't in any way restricted to the Marxists; they are merely the utopians with the hottest PR staff. But every political philosophy after Macchiavelli ( and many before) has assumed the human capacity for betterment as a basic requisite ... and left the reservation by then positing a universal human urge for betterment as its basic engine. Not ethe term "progressive" ... the ideology that we're "better than all that" is plain.
However I believe that human nature undoes utopias rather than supports them. Five thousand years of recorded history fail to contradict that belief. cn
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
However I believe that human nature undoes utopias rather than supports them. Five thousand years of recorded history fail to contradict that belief. cn
I believe in the inherent good of most people, it is the minority who corrupt that make life a struggle for existence.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I believe in the inherent good of most people, it is the minority who corrupt that make life a struggle for existence.
I believe that most people ... almost all ... have good in them. I also have seen groups left to their own devices breed despots. The best solution gets pushed out by the strongest, and it's my observation of the human condition that strong and good don't easily share a table. Strong equals above reproof or effective guidance, and too few people have a moral compass that is both internal and hard to corrupt.

And there's the kicker as I see it. None of the utopian concepts has an answer for human corruption, the universal spoiler of what could be (if only people saw wisdom, or any of a myriad true but impotent gripes). cn
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
I believe that most people ... almost all ... have good in them. I also have seen groups left to their own devices breed despots. The best solution gets pushed out by the strongest, and it's my observation of the human condition that strong and good don't easily share a table. Strong equals above reproof or effective guidance, and too few people have a moral compass that is both internal and hard to corrupt.

And there's the kicker as I see it. None of the utopian concepts has an answer for human corruption, the universal spoiler of what could be (if only people saw wisdom, or any of a myriad true but impotent gripes). cn
Intelligence apparently has not been a useful evolutionary adaptation thus far. Don't be a pessimist, the task of realizing it is up to us as a species to get our shit straight is nearly impossible, but not completely.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Intelligence apparently has not been a useful evolutionary adaptation thus far. Don't be a pessimist, the task of realizing it is up to us as a species to get our shit straight is nearly impossible, but not completely.
Oh intelligence has been very useful, esp. in clearing a new continent of noisome megafauna. But I do not consider it to be the heart of the matter. Intelligence and honor don't correlate very well imo. cn
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
So rudimentary and facile. Your arguments always come attached to obvious flaw, it is clear you have been misled, indoctrinated for a lifetime and shown how to think by herd mentality.

OK, I think an example is due.

So, medicine, here is a market dominated by supply, where demand will always out weight supply. Now imagine if there were an herbal medicine that every single person could grow themselves. Also, imagine if said plant had 40,000+ other uses. This plant would be a means of production controlled by the masses which would obviate every bit of demand, balancing supply and giving people freedom from coercive control of means of production, no violent redistribution needed.

Oil, another market dominated by supply where a small few private individuals own the means of production of a finite resource. This is an easy fix, and within a generation the coercive control of this means of production could be alleviated giving the PEOPLE who demand energy independence from it. Technology solves this with out the need for any violent redistribution.

Last but not least by any means, I posit that the perpetrators of this perpetual control of resources and means of production are in fact the ones committing violent redistribution.
you example is a plant. vegetation may be what you THINK of as "the means of production" but it aint. the "Means of Production" is timberland, mines, farms factories, mills, and other industry. not a fucking plant. seeds dont do dick for you if you dont have the dirt to plant it in, or the water to make it grow. under all collectivist forms of society (even the ones that claim to be without government) the "means of production" is NOT PLANTS, it's the land, natural resources, and industry, not your backyard garden.

your example is specious for other reasons as well.

"Medicine" is not particular drugs or medications. it is grounded in the knowledge and wisdom of the practitioners (doctors). many physicians have stated their belief that cannabis (your obvious thinly veiled example) can treat certain symptoms, but the lack of extensive and reliable clinical trials makes further claims dubious at best.
the practice of medicine is ALWAYS a supply side economy. theres a lot more people who want a doctor's service than there are doctors to service them. unless there is some means to weed out those who simply Desire medical service from those who Require it, those who Desire service will invariably bump some who Require, with potentially lethal results. stop by an emergency room sometime and count the number of dumbasses in there with kids with the sniffles or a minor cut on their finger.

medical training is also time consuming, arduous expensive and unpleasant.those who endure this process rightly deserve compensation for their skill, native talent and hard won expertise. that means you gotta call them Doctor, they get the awe and attention of the opposite (and sometimes the same) sex, and often make a packet. without these carrots, you'd need a big ass stick studded with rusty nails and broken glass to force somebody to got to medical school and take the internships.

likewise, developing a new drug or medical technology is expensive, time consuming laborious and requires not only doctors ($$$) but chemists ($$$) engineers ($$$) research facilities ($$$$) and somebody to run these organizations ($$$$$$$) without the potential for profit ($$$$$$), who would do this? mother theresa? the local soup kitchen volunteers? the salvation army? the net result is, artificial hearts, organ transplants, and wonder drugs like the new aids treatments, vaccines for deadly illnesses, and yes, even viagra would never exist without capitalism. capitalism is the carrot that drives technology forward, not out of some mysterious sense of philanthropy, but good old fashioned self-interest.

capitalism comes with a curse though, the curse of avarice. when enough is not enough, and skill daring and cleverness doesnt pay off like you want, then we get the devious, duplicitous and nefarious assholes who try to get rich off lies, manipulation, deceit and theft.

like william randoph hearst, dupont chemicals, harry ainslinger and herbert hoover who conspired together each pulling the rope for their own reason but all in a common direction, to ban cannabis.

the capitalism curse does not intimate that marxism is free of it's own problems, like for example, the death of dreams, the institutionalization of indolence, and the unavoidable problems of inequality in allocation of "shared" resources by those who do the dividing.

anarcho-________ism is even less savory. it eliminates the main deterrent to strongman dictatorships and local fiefdoms, the armed state. without the state as protector and guide there will be no commerce save that which can be conducted within the confines of an armed camp. there will always be some asshole who decidees he can do better for himself by taking shit from others, and in the anarcho-_______ist fairytale, he can operate with impunity.

and finally, the real reason cannabis is "illegal" today.

hearst wanted to protect his investment in pulp timber, for cheap paper under his personal control.
dupont was afraid that their new wonder fibers wouldnt sell with the new cheaper hemp fiber technologies
ainslinger was deeply invested in both organizations, but mostly he was just a self-righteous asshole and a religious zealot
herbert hoover just wanted these dickheads to support his next campaign.

THATS why cannabis is semi-sorta-kinda-almost-but-not-quite illegal.

drug companies arent afraid of cannabis legalization, but they will certainly profit from it if possible, but no matter how you slice it, cancer, heart disease, communicable diseases, and cosmetics are where the money is at. they dont need to make glaucoma medications or muscle relaxants to compete with cannabis, their addictive pills are already in the game for them. cannabis is the hop-head's choice, and even in california we couldnt get a full legalization measure passed.

muy facile.
su forma de pensar es incorrecta
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
you example is a plant. vegetation may be what you THINK of as "the means of production" but it aint. the "Means of Production" is timberland, mines, farms factories, mills, and other industry. not a fucking plant. seeds dont do dick for you if you dont have the dirt to plant it in, or the water to make it grow. under all collectivist forms of society (even the ones that claim to be without government) the "means of production" is NOT PLANTS, it's the land, natural resources, and industry, not your backyard garden.

your example is specious for other reasons as well.

"Medicine" is not particular drugs or medications. it is grounded in the knowledge and wisdom of the practitioners (doctors). many physicians have stated their belief that cannabis (your obvious thinly veiled example) can treat certain symptoms, but the lack of extensive and reliable clinical trials makes further claims dubious at best.
the practice of medicine is ALWAYS a supply side economy. theres a lot more people who want a doctor's service than there are doctors to service them. unless there is some means to weed out those who simply Desire medical service from those who Require it, those who Desire service will invariably bump some who Require, with potentially lethal results. stop by an emergency room sometime and count the number of dumbasses in there with kids with the sniffles or a minor cut on their finger.

medical training is also time consuming, arduous expensive and unpleasant.those who endure this process rightly deserve compensation for their skill, native talent and hard won expertise. that means you gotta call them Doctor, they get the awe and attention of the opposite (and sometimes the same) sex, and often make a packet. without these carrots, you'd need a big ass stick studded with rusty nails and broken glass to force somebody to got to medical school and take the internships.

likewise, developing a new drug or medical technology is expensive, time consuming laborious and requires not only doctors ($$$) but chemists ($$$) engineers ($$$) research facilities ($$$$) and somebody to run these organizations ($$$$$$$) without the potential for profit ($$$$$$), who would do this? mother theresa? the local soup kitchen volunteers? the salvation army? the net result is, artificial hearts, organ transplants, and wonder drugs like the new aids treatments, vaccines for deadly illnesses, and yes, even viagra would never exist without capitalism. capitalism is the carrot that drives technology forward, not out of some mysterious sense of philanthropy, but good old fashioned self-interest.

capitalism comes with a curse though, the curse of avarice. when enough is not enough, and skill daring and cleverness doesnt pay off like you want, then we get the devious, duplicitous and nefarious assholes who try to get rich off lies, manipulation, deceit and theft.

like william randoph hearst, dupont chemicals, harry ainslinger and herbert hoover who conspired together each pulling the rope for their own reason but all in a common direction, to ban cannabis.

the capitalism curse does not intimate that marxism is free of it's own problems, like for example, the death of dreams, the institutionalization of indolence, and the unavoidable problems of inequality in allocation of "shared" resources by those who do the dividing.

anarcho-________ism is even less savory. it eliminates the main deterrent to strongman dictatorships and local fiefdoms, the armed state. without the state as protector and guide there will be no commerce save that which can be conducted within the confines of an armed camp. there will always be some asshole who decidees he can do better for himself by taking shit from others, and in the anarcho-_______ist fairytale, he can operate with impunity.

and finally, the real reason cannabis is "illegal" today.

hearst wanted to protect his investment in pulp timber, for cheap paper under his personal control.
dupont was afraid that their new wonder fibers wouldnt sell with the new cheaper hemp fiber technologies
ainslinger was deeply invested in both organizations, but mostly he was just a self-righteous asshole and a religious zealot
herbert hoover just wanted these dickheads to support his next campaign.

THATS why cannabis is semi-sorta-kinda-almost-but-not-quite illegal.

drug companies arent afraid of cannabis legalization, but they will certainly profit from it if possible, but no matter how you slice it, cancer, heart disease, communicable diseases, and cosmetics are where the money is at. they dont need to make glaucoma medications or muscle relaxants to compete with cannabis, their addictive pills are already in the game for them. cannabis is the hop-head's choice, and even in california we couldnt get a full legalization measure passed.

muy facile.
su forma de pensar es incorrecta
You claim it is not a means of production, and stop there, and you're wrong. Aside from that, your distortion of my argument is that rant about doctors, I was talking about supply. Then you proceed to further premise my argument by expanding upon the industries affected and the demands obviated by it. Furthermore, whether it is a means of production or not is of little use, since it still empowers the masses from dependence upon a privately owned and controlled (coercive) means of production. I like how you chose not to even touch the oil example.
 

deprave

New Member
This is one point (after I modify it a bit) where I emphatically agree with you. I consider the other political philosophies, e.g. the belief that unfettered market capitalism is somehow a good thing, to also be utopian. To me the hallmark isn't in any way restricted to the Marxists; they are merely the utopians with the hottest PR staff. But every political philosophy after Macchiavelli ( and many before) has assumed the human capacity for betterment as a basic requisite ... and left the reservation by then positing a universal human urge for betterment as its basic engine. Not ethe term "progressive" ... the ideology that we're "better than all that" is plain. However I believe that human nature undoes utopias rather than supports them. Five thousand years of recorded history fail to contradict that belief. cn
I consider the belief that government is a divine force for good as utopian, I consider it utopian to believe that men can put on blue suits and gain magic powers.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
You claim it is not a means of production, and stop there, and you're wrong. Aside from that, your distortion of my argument is that rant about doctors, I was talking about supply. Then you proceed to further premise my argument by expanding upon the industries affected and the demands obviated by it. Furthermore, whether it is a means of production or not is of little use, since it still empowers the masses from dependence upon a privately owned and controlled (coercive) means of production. I like how you chose not to even touch the oil example.
herbie's seed bank is NOT a means of production it is a market. the hemp growers who sell seeds are not a means of production, they are capitalists, the seeds themselves are not a means of production. they are seeds. the farms greenhouses and growrooms used to produce the plants ARE the means of production, and thats wht youre talking about nationalizing... err.... collectivizing.... errr... seizing.... ummm.... ok how exactly is this shit supposed to happen again, without violence, coercion or the threat of prison or violence?

the means of production is defined as this:

"Means of production refers to physical, non-human inputs used in production—the factories, machines, and tools used to produce wealth[SUP][1][/SUP] — along with both infrastructural capital and natural capital. This includes the classical factors of production minus financial capital and minus human capital. They include two broad categories of objects: instruments of labour (tools, factories, infrastructure, etc.) and subjects of labour (natural resources and raw materials). People operate on the subjects of labour, using the instruments of labour, to create a product; or, stated another way, labour acting on the means of production creates a product.[SUP][2][/SUP] When used in the broad sense, the "means of production" includes the "means of distribution" which includes stores, banks, and railroads.[SUP][3][/SUP] The term can be simply and picturesquely described in an agrarian society as the soil and the shovel; in an industrial society, the mines and the factories."

~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production

i dont usually go to wikipedia but hey. they are the accepted source authority for your other citations so i figured you would feel more comfortable with something familiar. no mention of agricultural crops, seeds or plants in there at all. unless you want to try and include timber and forests as "plants" rather than natural resources. but that would be kinda silly.

your first example was so shaky and unstable i felt the need to dismantle it piece by piece so you could see the problems.

oil is a whole other kettle of fish. it requires heavy industry, massive outlays of cash and a vast network of refineries, distribution networks and attendant industries that it is not simply an oil well and the oil it pumps, further, oil is the source of products, not the product itself, except to the oil extractor. the rest of the world uses oil to make shit, uses that shit to make other shit, and then the average joe uses that tertiary or quaternary shit to handle his shit. you will be unable to offer any mechanism where oil extraction can be done by cottage industries or by collectives, so the only reasonable solution to the oil conundrum is seizing the oils industry from it's many owners, nationalizing it and placing it in the hands of a bureaucracy. while this solution would be elegant, effective and appealing on a visceral level (cuz executives dudes are dicks) it is NOT compatible with our constitution unless the US government pays them fair market value for their shit, and the US aint got that kind of cash.

your collectivist peaceful absorption of all society into a stateless utopian anarcho-_______ist dreamland with no actual anarchy is untenable illogical and downright impossible.

nothin stops you from starting a commune though.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
the government built and owns the interstate program for the SOLE PURPOSE of facilitating troop transportation through the nation.

highways are NOT for the people, highways are, and always have been an aid to control, and the fast transportation of military forces to maintain order for the purposes of government.

you may enjoy the interstate system but now that air transport is the fastest and easiest method to deliver military forces to the target region, you may have noticed a considerable reduction in the construction and maintenance of motorways in the US.

thats why shallow thinkers believe roads are built for their enjoyment and for commerce, which are in fact SIDE EFFECTS of the highway's primary purpose.

also inb4 you deliberately try to conflate rural and residential access roads, and local market roads with the interstate program, highways, and in fact EVERY major transportation building program (including railways) since time began.

rome built roads to transport legions, not to help sheepherders bring their flocks in for shearing, and shit hasnt changed one whit since then.
I know why the interstates were built, doesnt change anything about my counterexample.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
herbie's seed bank is NOT a means of production.
Why do you insist on poor analogies? You obviously aren't that dumb. You should stop emulating Bill O'Reilly.

It doesn't matter if that which obviates the demand for a coercive privately controlled means of production is a means of production or not itself. What matters is that it empowers and renders independent those who demand the supply. It obviates demand.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
To the bolded 1:
I see every society larger than the village unit as being necessarily hierarchic. Humans have always had kings and have them now. Even the village unit has an executive. From this it stands to reason that everybody being (and holding his neighbor as) equal is not the human way. it is unnatural and thus a utopian sentiment.

To the bolded 2: I have never seen an experiment devised to test this. Every treatment of the quantum mind/body problem i have read is a hugely daring extrapolation from quantum locality/observability phenomena (the double slit is the classic example) over a long metaphysical bridge spun of a blend of "holographic universe" abstractions and sheer power of wish.
I have seen no signs of particle or other quantum theory itself moving to test the premises. I've done some reading in physics, and would have no clue in re how to design the experiment. And without a test mode, this "theory" drops down even past "hypothesis" (which is a serious "test me!" proposal in the vernacular of the scientific method) into outright reverie. My opinion. cn
I'm talking about the experiments on the observer effect but I don't claim to be an authority by any means. I vaguely remember something about it being a confirmation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principal. I also watched a documentary and I made sure it wasn't from New Age kooks. I also notice that the only reply regarding this is from a chemist and it ends with "my opinion". I think it is ok to go with it as a premise to my argument, but I disagree with objectivist philosophy even with out this premise.
 
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