Large study shows no correlation between psychedelic use and mental illness

ukdave said:

Yes but there's a difference between suggesting people stick with proven meds they come here to grow, than advising them to stick with reality altering hallucinogens that may or not one day be proven useful as a mainstream medicine. In an ideal world none of us would need or want any drugs. But it aint.

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"hallucinogens" as you call them have already been proven useful by academia. Hell, even the Ontario Provincial Police in Canada are using ayahuasca to treat PTSD.

ukdave said:

Yes but there's a difference between suggesting people stick with proven meds they come here to grow, than advising them to stick with reality altering hallucinogens that may or not one day be proven useful as a mainstream medicine. In an ideal world none of us would need or want any drugs. But it aint.

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This is the area for that very thing.

"Proven" meds? Psilocybin mischievous are at least as old..
And proven as pot.

What is it about pot evangelism? "No drugs can possibly be good...except marijuana"

* THC * said:

"hallucinogens" as you call them have already been proven useful by academia. Hell, even the Ontario Provincial Police in Canada are using ayahuasca to treat PTSD.

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Be careful of what you want to believe. No the Ontario Provincial Police in Canada are not using ayahuasca to treat PTSD, that is an misrepresentation of reality. To be more precise, two officers are self medicating using ayahuasca, the other 20,000 are using alcohol, cocaine, crack, and other substances of their choosing to eliminate the compulsions, which are rooted in fear. They more than likely went on a trip to Peru, to visit a company taking its 'medicinal service' to a global audience, its being promoted by YouTube bloggers and in forums it seems. Brian Rose an example of someone who is a proponent having gone to a place where it is taken in a safe environment to take ayahausca, where every aspect of the entire experience was well thought out. It needs to be, because as a commercial enterprise they can't have customers jumping out of windows, and freaking out because some open milk cart started breathing rather loudly. So the company gives them some love beforehand and then quite frankly, hopes for the best. They say don't knock it until you tried it, I have, but never in a safe well thought out environment, with a good emotional starting point I will say that. On one occasion I was carted off to prison for the next nine months covered in bruises with my pockets stuffed full of Evo Stick glue I'd just stolen from a shop. The owner kindly lured me with a peacock style display of glue sticks. They softened me up and threw me into the lions den. The police that night seemed to think I was a punch bag, rather than sick, because they are sick, so many are sick.. - Education education, education, with actual facts is the way to go. We can't go round banning everything, but lets keep seat belts in cars aye.

canndo said:

This is the area for that very thing.

"Proven" meds? Psilocybin mischievous are at least as old..
And proven as pot.

What is it about pot evangelism? "No drugs can possibly be good...except marijuana"

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Psilocybin is a classical psychedelics which are thought not to be useful or safe for people with illnesses such as schizophrenia. Notice how every study says these type of 'reality' altering drugs are only beneficial in a safe environment, which likely includes tiny dosages, a trained psychotherapist, food, heat, nice people, etc etc. "No drugs can possibly be good...except marijuana" is not what I said, its what you said in order to paint an inaccurate picture of me, however, I will say that without evangelism to address the balance people will do stupid things, like telling a cannabis first timer its fine to smoke a 1 gram of GG4 in a pipe. Education, education, education.

ukdave said:

Psilocybin is a classical psychedelics which are thought not to be useful or safe for people with illnesses such as schizophrenia. Notice how every study says these type of 'reality' altering drugs are only beneficial in a safe environment, which likely includes tiny dosages, a trained psychotherapist, food, heat, nice people, etc etc. "No drugs can possibly be good...except marijuana" is not what I said, its what you said in order to paint an inaccurate picture of me, however, I will say that without evangelism to address the balance people will do stupid things, like telling a cannabis first timer its fine to smoke a 1 gram of GG4 in a pipe. Education, education, education.

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We agree on the education part.

As far as medical trials and possible therapy, actually, the doses are far higher than one might usually opt for in a non medical situation.

There is a difference between education and "don't take any drug but (fill in the blank). I've seen people pontificating about the dangers of pot over three and a half fingers of glenfedich. Pot smokers commonly opine on the dangers of alcohol while they suck down their fifth blunt that day as unmotivated as turnips.

Coke users put down heroin. Heroin users point at tweekers missing teeth.

But I have yet to talk to anyone more evangelical than pot smokers. According to them it cures everything from baldness to hang nails.

Most of the pot smokers I know or know of are habitual users. Weekenders, daily users, some several times a day.

Most of the Hallucinogenic users might, MIGHT use them once a month.

Many "grow out of it" and gradually halt their use. I rarely see this with smoke.

canndo said:

As far as medical trials and possible therapy, actually, the doses are far higher than one might usually opt for in a non medical situation.

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Thanks, am enjoying the conversation. Its not really a statement you or I can prove so I'll take that as something you want to believe.

canndo said:

There is a difference between education and "don't take any drug but (fill in the blank).

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Actually I'm saying take any drug you want its your life, it is prohibition that obstructs education for people who want to try Cannabis, in the UK anyway. However that's an ideal, not what is necessarily right for an uneducated masses today. Most mature people just want what is good for their kids on balance, and that is usually what is best for society. Sometimes what is best for everyone is not black or white, its grey.

canndo said:

I've seen people pontificating about the dangers of pot over three and a half fingers of glenfedich. Pot smokers commonly opine on the dangers of alcohol while they suck down their fifth blunt that day as unmotivated as turnips. But I have yet to talk to anyone more evangelical than pot smokers. According to them it cures everything from baldness to hang nails.

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I don't doubt this, because all of our heads are being filled with misinformation. People put out what they genuinely believe, but sometimes forget to fact check. We all do it from time to time, it just slip out. I read somewhere that we believe first, like thinking we know what someone is like having only just met them. Apparently we decide if we like people in the first ten minutes or something like that.

canndo said:

Most of the pot smokers I know or know of are habitual users. Weekenders, daily users, some several times a day.
Most of the Hallucinogenic users might, MIGHT use them once a month.
Many "grow out of it" and gradually halt their use. I rarely see this with smoke.

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Most weed smokers I know are the same, however every single person I've ever known to take hallucinogens stopped for good, broke their legs, or ended up like me, very sick, in prison instead of hospital. Cannabis smokers I know typically take time off when they don't need it or they can't get high because their THC receptors are saturated. For example a close friend just lost his dog about 2 months ago, an every day smoker. He stopped smoking weed with immediate effect because he knows it exaggerates his emotions, so is for now a bad idea, but not everyone has that degree of control. Some Cannabis users may only wish to spice up their love life. Whereas Hallucinogen users are not usually looking for a cure for ptsd, they are looking for a mind blowing experience, in search of that elusive something, typically a God experience, and so they go down the wrong road looking for a state of Nirvana and end up greeting their own demons along the road. Real addicts don't decide what or when to use, their compulsions decide for them. Its not a decision for them.

ukdave said:

Taking hallucinogens is a great way to mess with your reality, and to confuse yourself, from experience its a 'really' bad idea, you are more likely to experience the horrors than a spiritual experience, especially if you are already anxious and depressed, so don't do it, don't listen to the hype. Take it from a former Glue sniffer and LSD user, its not worth it, your own brain will punish you. There is a big push to sell hallucinogens as some sort of medicine, its not, I ended up looking anorexic. Stick to weed. Just because Bill W had a spiritual experience using the Bella Donna treatment does not guarantee you will also experience euphoria, you are more likely hallucinate being in a snake pit is my experience. they used to print tiny pictures of 'superman' on the lsd tabs back in the day, the guy upstairs took one, believed he was superman and broke both his legs trying to fly out the window, You have been warned.

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Wow, this sounds like some straight up 80' s Just Say No scare tactics. I'd guess your issues started with glue. I'd imagine alot of people have had some bad trips after frying their brains huffing glue habitually. You're probably not the best voice on this matter. Thanks for sharing tho...

ukdave said:

Be careful of what you want to believe. No the Ontario Provincial Police in Canada are not using ayahuasca to treat PTSD, that is an misrepresentation of reality. To be more precise, two officers are self medicating using ayahuasca, the other 20,000 are using alcohol, cocaine, crack, and other substances of their choosing to eliminate the compulsions, which are rooted in fear. They more than likely went on a trip to Peru, to visit a company taking its 'medicinal service' to a global audience, its being promoted by YouTube bloggers and in forums it seems. Brian Rose an example of someone who is a proponent having gone to a place where it is taken in a safe environment to take ayahausca, where every aspect of the entire experience was well thought out. It needs to be, because as a commercial enterprise they can't have customers jumping out of windows, and freaking out because some open milk cart started breathing rather loudly. So the company gives them some love beforehand and then quite frankly, hopes for the best. They say don't knock it until you tried it, I have, but never in a safe well thought out environment, with a good emotional starting point I will say that. On one occasion I was carted off to prison for the next nine months covered in bruises with my pockets stuffed full of Evo Stick glue I'd just stolen from a shop. The owner kindly lured me with a peacock style display of glue sticks. They softened me up and threw me into the lions den. The police that night seemed to think I was a punch bag, rather than sick, because they are sick, so many are sick.. - Education education, education, with actual facts is the way to go. We can't go round banning everything, but lets keep seat belts in cars aye.

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My point is that even the police, being one of the most indoctrinated when it comes to drugs, are opening up their eyes to the mounds of scientific evidence.

ukdave said:

Thanks, am enjoying the conversation. Its not really a statement you or I can prove so I'll take that as something you want to believe.

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"Compared with low-dose, high-dose psilocybin produced greater acute and persisting effects. At 6 months, compared with LD-SS, both high-dose groups showed large significant positive changes on longitudinal measures of interpersonal closeness, gratitude, life meaning/purpose, forgiveness, death transcendence, daily spiritual experiences, religious faith and coping, and community observer ratings."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5772431/

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press_releases/2006/griffithspsilocybin.pdf

natureboygrower said:

Wow, this sounds like some straight up 80' s Just Say No scare tactics. I'd guess your issues started with glue. I'd imagine alot of people have had some bad trips after frying their brains huffing glue habitually. You're probably not the best voice on this matter. Thanks for sharing tho...

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No its not a scare tactic, its called 'a personal opinion', take it or leave it but don't punish me for having one. People who devalue others so readily are called Narcissists, look yourself up. The addiction to glue was a symptom not a cause, when you have been there see it and done it you will understand.

ukdave said:

No its not a scare tactic, its called 'a personal opinion', take it or leave it but don't punish me for having one. People who devalue others so readily are called Narcissists, look yourself up. The addiction to glue was a symptom not a cause, when you have been there see it and done it you will understand.

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I'm very familiar with addictions. Your opinion comes off like everyone who does hallucinogens is going to end up like yourself. When in fact, you stated yourself when you tried them you werent in a "safe well thought out environment " or without a "good emotional starting point"

You're welcome to your own opinion but maybe try and realize that not all are going to have terribk consequences. A lot of people on this board are experimenting with microdosing with shrooms but you probably wont hear about that. Just the negatives.

* THC * said:

My point is that even the police, being one of the most indoctrinated when it comes to drugs, are opening up their eyes to the mounds of scientific evidence.


"Compared with low-dose, high-dose psilocybin produced greater acute and persisting effects. At 6 months, compared with LD-SS, both high-dose groups showed large significant positive changes on longitudinal measures of interpersonal closeness, gratitude, life meaning/purpose, forgiveness, death transcendence, daily spiritual experiences, religious faith and coping, and community observer ratings."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5772431/

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press_releases/2006/griffithspsilocybin.pdf

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Thanks I'll have a look at those studies to see what I'm not missing.

If the goal is to achieve all of those emotions, (some of which are not even provable, e.g. spiritual experiences), there is a much less risky way, its called joining a high quality community, and doing service for others. There are no shortcuts to a state of well being, you have to put in the work, LSD is not a shortcut, its an experiment, those who feel compelled to use it likely have underlying issues. Ask Syd Barret. Also two coppers who tried it does not speak for the police services as a whole, that would be propaganda. I saw a video once where the army did a study, the soldiers were completely immobilised by LSD on the battlefield, they could not fight. So yes if you want to incapacitate the Police, tell them its a good idea to take LSD. Give a hallucinogen to an addict and he will want more. Even Brian Rose after taking the ayahuasca treatment went on to take lsd on his return. Then he went on to drink urine on his youtube channel as that too he felt is medicinal, 'cheers' he said like a proper alcoholic. People who are sick can't always see it themselves.

Syd Barret likely already had a mental illness and went on a weekend long acid trip.

Nobody is saying hallucinogens arent dangerous. But in low doses over a period of time, they may be helpful and a person is at a far less risk of having a bad experience.

Thanks, am enjoying the conversation. Its not really a statement you or I can prove so I'll take that as something you want to believe.

ukdave said:

Thanks, am enjoying the conversation. Its not really a statement you or I can prove so I'll take that as something you want to believe.

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Well, there is this.

"Perhaps unsurprisingly, researchers noted that the reported positive effects increased as higher doses were given, but also that there was a sharp increase in the negative aspects at the very highest dose. At the highest dose (30 mg/70 kg, p.o. - meaning "per oral" or by mouth), 78 percent of the volunteers were reporting one of the top five most spiritually significant happenings of their lives but those suffering anxiety, stress and fear episodes increased by six times, so that around a third of those participating in the study showed signs of psychological struggle.
By contrast, only one of the volunteers receiving the second highest dose (20mg/70 kg, p.o.) reported having negative issues, and all benefited from positive experiences, although with less intensity than at the highest dose. Critically, even the lowest amount used in the study resulted in notable and long-lasting positive changes in the attitudes, behavior, overall satisfaction and spiritual beliefs of the subjects during the period of study. These changes were also noticed by family members and friends."

So the highest dose was 30 mg per 70kg.
That's maybe 35 to 40 for an adult male, wouldn't you say? Now cubensis strength is between .6 and 1 percent. So that means these test folk are taking about an eighth of an ounce of the most potent cubensis.
Nearly twice that of the weaker stuff (most of it is the weaker stuff). No one is going to argue that, say, 4 or 5 grams is not close to or at heroic dose levels.


And another

"
Dr. Roland Griffiths (Dr. Griffiths is also responsible for a well-known study about the effects of psilocybin on patients diagnosed with terminal cancer, as well as several other seminal psychedelic and addiction studies). In this study, 18 healthy volunteers were given four tiers of psilocybin dose and encouraged to lie down in a comfortable environment with headphones. The study’s aim was to evaluate volunteers’ subjective experiences—positive and negative—at different doses.
The highest dose tested was 30 mg of psilocybin per 70 kg participant weight (mg per kg is a typical clinical measure of dose for drugs of all kinds). This is roughly equivalent to a 155 lb individual taking slightly less than 5 g of dried psilocybe cubensis, a typical psychedelic mushroom—quite a strong dose. "

This isn't what I want to belive, this is knowing the state of research and the molecule itself.

It is always fascinating to me that people don't respond with "gee, imagine that" or "Yeah, I guess you were correct" "sorry for my implications that you were wrong".

Just dead air, from a well known member. But I guess that is to generally be expected.

Pity.

MrEDuck said:

My experience is people don't start taking drugs like that unless something is wrong.

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Actually, I'll only indulge if I'm in great head.....no " baggage ".

No correlation, my experience seems different, but maybe i didn't tried hard enough... did anyone tried vapin DMT 5-MeO, while waiting both for shrooms and lsd to kick it..... where does that beams me to... might i bootstrap from this planque length a simulation into a new life i just make up in my head and live there happily, literally jump right into another dimension... while in this physical dimension the hardware (my residue computer) get moved to the nuthouse... sure, anytime, it's possible. Hopefully im gone for ever and dont wake up in the nuthouse one day....... Just one call and i can have all kidn of sedatives, llithium to shut the shit down, so i must not witness.

Maybe im already in, fracks!!! What if im full of lithium and valium, laying in a nuthouse connected to a neuralink that simulates this life

I must break this mind! Or i go crazy.... wait a minute, now im maximally confused..... what mental sickness of the cataloque fits me? EVERY. I can pick one.... borderline, shizophrenic, choleric,psychopath, sociopath.... i managed to fit in all those patterns... thanks got i my hands onto the delics.

Did the delics made me so.... Nooooo.... because i am what i am, i choose for this to be my FUN, i was a maniac before.... why would youchoose to consume such for the fun of it.... there is no sane reason to do so! This is lunacy...knock knock!

Taking them is like holiday, not for meeting the gods or find enlightenment....just entertaining, from what?
Whats in my head all day? You wont believe it! Just metaphoricly some kind of this ADHD-jerk:
So I do beer, I do weed, I do shrooms, I do LSD, i look for the DMT.... but whatever the hell I do.
Reality catches me back..... and I hate it for that.... why am I so complicated.
Why cant I just believe in fairytales, demons, reptilian shapeshifters, chemtrails, santa clause and the toothfairy.... it simply dont work for me.

I have no problem with psychedelics.... i have problem the reality keeps coming back! Seeing all the real problems with sharp mind. Im fed up human crap! Im done with the species, Im just bored like hell.
I intend to shoot myself into nirvana and stay there forever ... but it dont work

I say hello to the cartoonish friends i pull from the wall out of thin air... but even when I WANT..... at some point the leave! Damnit.... reality back again.

Just to give you a brief view of some "correlation"....

Listen.... take a journey through these podcast of James Kent.... and if you finished it..... tell me again theres no correlation.

This is must hear for psyhconauts.... know the dangers! THERE IS CORRELATION..... a lot of it... you must be blind not to see those cases! They are very famous. Each episode features tragic cases of mental illness due to psychedlics use!

Well, I guess I’ll throw my hat in the ring with my own experiences.

Psychedelics are not toys, and those who take high doses for leisure will soon find themselves in hot water.

I took psychedelics for pure leisure, and far above what would be considered “recreational” doses. I liked the eye candy, but what I did not expect was the headspace I head to accept afterwards.

The more you use psychedelics, I’m not talking tolerance, your headspace will change even while sober. If your one to take extended 3+ day trips, they will linger with you the rest of your life. I don’t believe this is the case with lower reasonable doses though.

I have good experience with LSD, DMT, Psilocybin, and a handful of phenethylamines. What they have taught me is do not take large doses when bored, you will be punished.

I think lower doses are also more therapeutic than high doses. I have pushed a half OZ of shrooms before and all I discovered was what it was like to forget who you are for a month. That’s an extremely bad outcome, but one that can happen when you tinker too much with your literal consciousness.

These are great and wonderful medicinal tools, and with all that said I believe I would not be alive were it not for psychedelics, good or bad.

Choose your psychedelic carefully, some are much more forgiving than others. I wouldn’t trade my dmt, lsd, and mushroom experiences for anything on this earth.

Technicallly any trip changes you for the rest of the life, same as "thinking about stuff" without a trip.... it's normal. The brain reorderns all the time. If you came across something that you can't get your head around with your knowledge, and finally you get it in your head, then a magic happens, you have changed personally completely. Now you argue different, see it different, know it different and react different in future, anything the matter you enlightened yourself plays into.

Galileo Galilei just said after prooving it scientificaly: "And yet it is moving"
Half a century later.... every human inside the civilisation changed their mind!

The psychedelics can speed up your neural reconfiguring, they kind of initiate reorganising processes what involves making more connections between your neurons, and more of it, because the trip adds up a lot of information that has to be filtered from your head. Beware that while you throw JUNK at your head.... choose wisely what you spent you time with durign and after the trip! It did not finished completey only because the visual halucinations weared off.... then the trip really begins at first for your brain! Beware that! The "after-glow" time! This can take week monthes, so you should wait for the next until you feel really ready, not pop them in a row. Jesus Christ! But dont believe him if you see him trippin

Obviously this can be danger, if you believed in fairtales, demons, shapefiters and conspiracies before, or just beeing very religious and then focus on that on a trip.... guess what, you going to see them everywhere, aliens, or jesus, or elvis, and that might not leave for the rest of your life when you burn THAT in your brain for 3 days, like seeing the mermaids you believe in. They then stay... because you believed in them, if you know it's just not real and want them to NOT LEAVE, stay in the fun, they be gone soon! Thats what our brain does.... it understand it's not real and eliminates it from the vision, but if you actually believe it... fuck it and fuck you, you are fucked then!.... If you stend 3 days on LSD playing grantourismo on the playstation.... your in a race driving the rest of your life, your hands look like you holding a controller, the rest of your life, i know one that had that trip, just sit there in the park on a bank, always gaming.... beware what to spend your time with! Thats why you want somebody to keep an eye on you to change your subjects, not to get stuck on something! You should not repeat things. Switch what you pay attention on... that helps a lot for protection!

When I use them, I just have this splinter in my head, to just not believe ANYTHING, its just fun. You dont take them to connect to your ancestors, to show you who you are, or to help you with your life..... it's just fun. And only when I accept it to be only that, and do it only for that reason, like Steve-O, to enjoy some fun outside the reality, anything just wears off.

Thats my experience. And it's not like I do them often... and of course my last post was kinda extremely sarcastic... of course I dont do it for the reason to land in the nuthouse and i dont mix them, just played it to show you how insane that would be . I respect it and most of the times, I plan to use them, I have them, then I wanna take them, and I dont do it, procrastinate it HALF a year, dont feel ready, not feelt good... I asked myself the last moment, "you really want?" Most of the times, my inner self ansers: "No, not yet, need more preparation time". Then I leave it and get back to it later

When something is boggling me badly, problems in family whatever.... I leave it! Surely! I dont want to CAUSE mental illness, depression, like if my father just died... i dont throw LSD to conenct to him, dude, that would be crazy mental illness before, to do that at all for such kind of reason, in that kind of moment..... WTF... no correlation? But causation!

It works good for me in avoiding bad trips of having them not wear off.

Think about what you believe in before, your ideologies, what you wanna have it for? You get that consequences! Doing it for fun, beeing earth-grounded, nothing boggling your mind, no problems atm, and having someone having an eye on you... is the safest. Recreational use? Yeah you WANT it to CHANGE you, to re-create you, you put a meaning to it before taking them.... and you get that out, thats why you should think at least twice... wisely! BEFORE popping them! I never do that on purpose, i just want my brain to get disctracted and feel it waving like that. I dont trust the information. Dont believe the high! Its just brain holliday. Thats safe for me.... and honestlky one trip and long pauses between is best. My last post was just sarcastic, in case you didn't get it.

Still i really reocmmend you the podcast of Kent, Dosenation. It is really great podcast about the dark sides psychelics.

It made me humble and think more about the actual dangers, learn from that people Kent shows and how to avoid them. The dangers are absolutely real.... there isnt correlation, but causation, if you do them wrong! Absolutely! Theres people making holes in their skulls because of psychedelics!! Correlation CAUSATION does exist! Please anybody DONT go down that rabbit hole! Stay in reality, stay sane! I used to be shizophrenic, but we're OK now, thx Cubensis! It was not the cause of it, but it brought it on the table, and It helped me figuring it out and manage it. I have just different contrary opinions in me, everyone has that, but it's just one voice. Mine. Psychedelics helped me discover my sanity

And if you see yourself getting more sane each time, believing less bullshit each time, less fairytales, less mermaids, riddling out the contrary opinions inside you seeking for the truth of it, that other people just live with and get along with not finding out... then you are on the right way of doing. Then you see what crazy insane stuff the guys actually really believe in that never popped psychedelics, like the religious people, that the saviour is coming.... or the commercialists like believing in this devastating finance-system feeding the radical economics of mankind destroying our habitate to be "sane" but it's just a wicked entity out of human control!

* THC * said:

"hallucinogens" as you call them have already been proven useful by academia. Hell, even the Ontario Provincial Police in Canada are using ayahuasca to treat PTSD.

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Yeah, There are many studies out about the positive effects for depression and other mental illness: