Green Dave
Well-Known Member
Im running 2 Black Dog BD220 pulls over 200w 1st grow with them so not dialed in yet but look good so far
Led Users Unite!
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660nm420
Active Member
My first ISIS cost $399 a couple months ago. My second ISIS cost $450 a couple weeks ago. HATE to say it but price is going up because demand is going up.
mrcameleon
Member
I have the BD360 ($1,100 flowering model) and it does everything my 400w hps did with ease and then some, minus the heat and bulb changes.
You're going to luv your BD light. They are expensive, but very well worth it.
puffenuff
Well-Known Member
Just one out of many companies, not reflective of the industry. I think the company that sells the isis is undergoing major changes...last time I checked them their website had been drastically changed and I cant find any of their other models besides isis fx-1 and magnum 357...so maybe their price increase has something to do with that? Maybe they made some upgrades? No one else is raising prices so I still think my forecast is somewhat accurate
Yeah prices are gonna go yup as companies finally switch to 3w diodes, and many are making it so their panels can only lose 1 LED at a time. Imagine though for companies that have already been doing this the prices won't go up (unless everyone switching puts strains on supply).
puffenuff
Well-Known Member
I was referring to the prices of the panels currently available now, not the models where companies are upgrading from 1w to 3w...obviously there's going to be a price increase from 1w to 3w...
Sry, I wonder what their excuse is then for charging even more for outdated tech?
sierrajames
Member
not everyone is switching to 3W, the company I bought from has 1W diodes that blow away 3W diodes
And 1W is not outdated tech lol, you spread a lot of misinformation around here jdizzle22
dunit
Active Member
I haven't seen any completed journals with 1W panels that pulled decent gpw. The couple times I've seen someone take a PAR meter to 1W and 3W diodes the 1 watters drop off very quickly over distance which is why I think that they just don't pull decent numbers. Probably do okay with SCROG or something with a shallow canopy if you parked them right on top of the plants but I suspect that would be the extent of their capabilities.
I ran panels with 2W CREE LED's. And yes I mean all CREE LED's. Procyon 100's, they were retardedly expensive but I bought into the whole marketing behind CREE being the only LED's to consider. My current lights with 3W bridgelux and epistar LED's blow them out of the water.
I think that the traditional weakness of LED is the penetration but that higher wattage of individual diodes is going a long way to cure that. It will be interesting to see how the panels with 5W diodes perform but I'm guessing they'll penetrate better than 3 watters and re-invent the game all over again.
Grumpy Old Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Price is also going up because the components are imported and the dollar is worth less and less each day.
astroastro
Active Member
sierrajames has it nailed. The approx. 1mm^2 (40 - 45mil^2) LED die is the most efficient, widely available die out there. In engineering parlance, it is commonly called a '1W die'. It is true that the die can be injected with current which would exceed 1W, however when reading a specification like the Bridgelux NLX-5 or-6 spec, you need to pay close attention to the caveat notes stipulating thermal conditions- it is not so easy like a chunk of aluminum and a fan to make this happen.
Why does this efficiency thing matter (?)- when you inject current thru the P-N junction of the LED it produces two things- light (photons) and heat (phonons). The ratio between the light and heat produced determines the 'efficiency' of the die. A more efficient die produces more light and less heat for every Watt you shove thru it- a good thing. A less efficient die produces less light and more heat per Watt injected- a not so much good thing. You will have to have a better cooling system and still get less radiant output power out of a fixture made with inefficient dies- this whole thermal management thing with LED's is very important. The problem gets even more complicated with lateral (or planar) dies like Bridgelux/ Epistar on sapphire vs. vertically structured dies like Cree. Lateral dies suffer from significant 'current crowding' at the die electrode, which results in uneven heat distribution across the die and therefore uneven electroluminescence.
Anyway- back to the subject. The sales and marketing teams of these LED sellers in the US have won the battle as everyone is talking about 'Watts'. This Watt figure of merit tells you nothing of the relative efficiency, radiant output power, or wavelength content of the fixture and allows them to tell you that these small multi-chip arrays (small MCPCB's with 4 or 6 or whatever little, teeny tiny chip LED's) are in fact '3W' or '5W' LED's. It is a marketing scam that tells you nothing about the relative quality of the fixture- except that they are not using quality LED dies. These little 'chip' LED's are not very efficient at generating light- you pay for the lapse in quality in your electrical bill. I guess you stuff enough of them on there you can say whatever you want to- '3W' or '5W' or '10,000W'- whatever you want to.
The parts alone required to make quality light fixture using a premium, highly efficient die like Cree would cost more per Watt than what some of these things are retailing for on the Internet- that's the truth- even coming out of China. I am in China now. The price for the Cree die, like most things, is reflected in the cost to produce and the price the market is willing to bear- there is a reason why Cree costs what it does and Epistar and Everlight cost what they do- Cree is filling a market spot where performance matters and the others (not all, but many) are filling a market position where cost matters. As a photon delivery device, a 4 or 5 year old unit made from quality components would perform 'almost' as well a new unit made of similar components, whereas a cheap one... no one knows. With LED's, you get what you pay for- if you're in it for the long run a quality fixture would pay for itself several times over in it's serviceable lifetime, a cheap one gonna be hitting the trash can sooner rather than later. It depends what your objectives are.
Why does this efficiency thing matter (?)- when you inject current thru the P-N junction of the LED it produces two things- light (photons) and heat (phonons). The ratio between the light and heat produced determines the 'efficiency' of the die. A more efficient die produces more light and less heat for every Watt you shove thru it- a good thing. A less efficient die produces less light and more heat per Watt injected- a not so much good thing. You will have to have a better cooling system and still get less radiant output power out of a fixture made with inefficient dies- this whole thermal management thing with LED's is very important. The problem gets even more complicated with lateral (or planar) dies like Bridgelux/ Epistar on sapphire vs. vertically structured dies like Cree. Lateral dies suffer from significant 'current crowding' at the die electrode, which results in uneven heat distribution across the die and therefore uneven electroluminescence.
Anyway- back to the subject. The sales and marketing teams of these LED sellers in the US have won the battle as everyone is talking about 'Watts'. This Watt figure of merit tells you nothing of the relative efficiency, radiant output power, or wavelength content of the fixture and allows them to tell you that these small multi-chip arrays (small MCPCB's with 4 or 6 or whatever little, teeny tiny chip LED's) are in fact '3W' or '5W' LED's. It is a marketing scam that tells you nothing about the relative quality of the fixture- except that they are not using quality LED dies. These little 'chip' LED's are not very efficient at generating light- you pay for the lapse in quality in your electrical bill. I guess you stuff enough of them on there you can say whatever you want to- '3W' or '5W' or '10,000W'- whatever you want to.
The parts alone required to make quality light fixture using a premium, highly efficient die like Cree would cost more per Watt than what some of these things are retailing for on the Internet- that's the truth- even coming out of China. I am in China now. The price for the Cree die, like most things, is reflected in the cost to produce and the price the market is willing to bear- there is a reason why Cree costs what it does and Epistar and Everlight cost what they do- Cree is filling a market spot where performance matters and the others (not all, but many) are filling a market position where cost matters. As a photon delivery device, a 4 or 5 year old unit made from quality components would perform 'almost' as well a new unit made of similar components, whereas a cheap one... no one knows. With LED's, you get what you pay for- if you're in it for the long run a quality fixture would pay for itself several times over in it's serviceable lifetime, a cheap one gonna be hitting the trash can sooner rather than later. It depends what your objectives are.
sierrajames
Member
huh? are you talking about penetration? I wasn't.
And penetration doesn't matter if someone knows how to correctly place and move the lights throughout the grow.
And just because you havent seen a grow journal with a decent gpw doesn't mean anything
If anyone has seen a grow by Rumpleforskin, it would help to see my point. He used 1W LED and had terrible results because he treated the light like an overhead HID HPS. The lower half of the plant was worthless, because no light penetration.
No light penetration is not a weakness of LED, IMO, because if you expect to hang it above your canopy like an HPS you don't understand the difference between led and hid. So the weakness is in the grower, not the light.
And penetration doesn't matter if someone knows how to correctly place and move the lights throughout the grow.
And just because you havent seen a grow journal with a decent gpw doesn't mean anything
If anyone has seen a grow by Rumpleforskin, it would help to see my point. He used 1W LED and had terrible results because he treated the light like an overhead HID HPS. The lower half of the plant was worthless, because no light penetration.
No light penetration is not a weakness of LED, IMO, because if you expect to hang it above your canopy like an HPS you don't understand the difference between led and hid. So the weakness is in the grower, not the light.
dunit
Active Member
Penetration doesn't matter for growing pot? I have a limited space I can grow in so if I use a light with no-penetration I am limited to the amount of pot I can grow in a finite area. Basically I'm looking to get at least a pound out of a 4x4 area and I can't do that unless I have lighting that gets a decent amount of penetration. As for lining the walls with 1w LED's, I suppose I could do that but I'd end up with three to four times as many panels and associated costs (although 1W panels are cheaper but not 75% cheaper)
As for the lack of grow journals not meaning anything......I think it means everything.
Did anyone believe Bin Laden was dead until they saw pictures?
There is so much marketing BS in this industry, including social media marketing that involves seeding forums, that until someone puts lights over plants and keeps a detailed journal for all to follow....
.....everything else is just talk....and all the hot air in the world won't grow weed
sierrajames
Member
did you even read my post?
Right, because of your limited space, trying to penetrate with a 1W diode would be dumb.
But some people have a LOT of space tho..so whats your point? that you won't benefit from a light with low penetration?
and yes, just because there isn't a grow journal showing amazing results isn't going to change my mind. Research, reading, etc. that is what I base my decisions on,
Right, because of your limited space, trying to penetrate with a 1W diode would be dumb.
But some people have a LOT of space tho..so whats your point? that you won't benefit from a light with low penetration?
and yes, just because there isn't a grow journal showing amazing results isn't going to change my mind. Research, reading, etc. that is what I base my decisions on,
1w diodes may be more efficient at producing more light and less heat, but they are not better for growing with than 3w diodes run at 1.5 or 2w as they have a less penetration (you have to keep the LED closer because the power of the light drops very quickly). That said, I know you can grow quality pot with 1w panels, but you can much more easily grow higher quality pot with something better. I know some companies try to deceive people with 3w diodes that are really just three 1w in the same... dome? But that seems very rare to me
Does anyone here really believe a panel of 1w diodes at 2ft could grow better cannabis than a 3w diode panel at 2ft? I'm pretty sure if one is obviously better than the other this distance, its better for growing!
astroastro
Active Member
'Penetration' is measurable. It is a function of generated light intensity and subsequent light containment over the photosynthetically active portions of the plant- producing a lot of light and then directing the light to the plants- not allowing the light to escape out the sides. This whole 'lens' thing people talk about is at best a marginal solution to the problem when using an LED with a Lambertian radiation pattern.
sierrajames
Member
"but they are not better for growing with than 3w diodes run at 1.5 or 2w as they have a less penetration"
well, that is a matter grower skill, and technique. if the plant was grown to where penetration was not needed, well then that 1W would grow just as well, for less money, as the 3W
well, that is a matter grower skill, and technique. if the plant was grown to where penetration was not needed, well then that 1W would grow just as well, for less money, as the 3W
astroastro
Active Member
Dunit....
Over what size canopy area? I appreciate all your posts, but I have to say, with absolutely no disrespect intended, I believe at 2ft stand-off distance it can be done with true 1W LED's. I say that because these 3W and 5W so called LED's are not what you think they are or what they are being touted as by the sellers.
What do I think they are that I'm wrong? I haven't seen anything explained about why it would be easier to grow with 1w diodes than 3w diodes which obviously put out more light (but perhaps not as efficiently for how much heat). I'll admit I don't know as much about this stuff as I should, but I haven't seen anyone explain how a 1w diode can grow better than a 3w diode running at 2w?
I don't doubt that 1w can grow and someone who knows what they are doing can grow as well as others. But I have serious doubts that a 1w diode can grow better than a 3w (I haven't even seen 5w yet where do people see that?). If they can be the same wavelength, how can it grow better with significantly less power?