Liberals Hate Success

jeff f · Jan 1, 2010

Heads Up said:
Let's get some real life in this thread. Hating on rich people is so abstract, most of this discussion is based on bs. Most people do work for a living. There are not throngs of people sitting around waiting for a handout from the rich, that's just silly.

I've been at the same place for going on two and a half years. My boss is a republican. We all had to sign 1099 forms to work for the guy, that makes us independent contractors, he pays no taxes on us, yet he treats us as his employees. We don't bid on the work, he pays us all an hourly wage. He provides our tools and clothes. To sum it up, he is our employer. He wants all the benefits of having us as employees without any of the responsibility. He has no workman's comp insurance on us, he pays nothing into our social security and he also cheats the government out of their fair share.

I work five sometimes six days a week. I have missed a total of four days in over two years and have never taken a vacation. I also have not had a raise in over two years. I'm dependable, on time and I actually care about the quality of work I produce, yet a raise in nowhere in sight. Instead of a raise we get the line, you should be happy you have a job.

That's the real world of business.

oh, where to begin...

econ 101. your boss puts you on the books, thats what you want? for the sake of discussion i am going to say you make 10/hour to keep the math simple.

your boss pays you 10 becuase a/thats what he can afford or b/there is help available at those wages. its one of the two.

as soon as he puts you on the payroll. he has to immediately get insurance on you. minimum construction insurance is about 500/worker/year for liability.specialty insurance, often required, gets eceedingly higher. he will directly deduct these from your hourly wage unless he is exceedingly nice. and your boss doesnt sound that way.

he then has to provide workmans comp which varies by area but it usually runs over 30% and i have paid as much as 38%.

then he has to take unemplyment fund money from your check and in some places, not all, the employer has to match that.

then he gets hit for 3.5 percent social security and so do you.

so take that wage of yours and figure out all the things that are going to have to come off your check. and depending on the size of the company and what state, he may have to provide you with health insurance. if so, he wont take that out of your wage cuz it is 2 expensive. he will more than likely add up the total bill, divide the number by average salary and then lay off that many of your fellow workers.

and worst case scenario, he will close his company, take what money he can get out of it and close. on a company of 10 or less "employees" i can tell ya this is the most likely scenario.

i been in the business for 30 years. your employer is doing you a huge favor by 1099 you. you should kiss him.

i used to do subbing for another contractor who prefered to pay by the hour. no problem because he was paying me under the table for $15. his accountant told him to put me on the books, dumb because i begged him not to, and it would cost him a group extra. not including the money HE lost in increased taxes and insurance, my take home pay was less than $10/hour and i lost about 15 grand in tax write offs for my equiptment.

next day i said, ho bud, i am putting in my 2 weeks. he begged me to stay, i wanted to but his accountant insisted i stay on the books.

the accountant was last seen in a small innertube about 100 yards above niagra falls...completely duct taped

PadawanBater · Jan 1, 2010

JustAnotherFriedDay said:
mhmmmm. liberal/conservative is just the stance you take on issues. they cant be used to completely categorize someones ideology.

if someone is mostly liberal on political ideals then they are far left. if a person is far left they are blind to success by those who came before us.

if someone is mostly conservative on political ideals then they are far right. if a person is far right then they are blind to failures by those who came before us.

the middle is RIGHT where you want to be...its called using good judgment on a case by case basis.

What does a perfect balance of intuition and conscience and education and experience get us? Perfect wisdom.

both sides are right on at least one matter.

in a perfect world, we'd all be liberal on issues that need work and conservative on what already works.

so yes, if you feel the need to categorize someones political ideals, use far right and far left.

JustAnotherFriedDay said:
if 1 is far left and 10 is far right than I'm a 7...just to give you an idea of how i could be categorized politically. however, to categorize someone at all is just too damn vague...theres always exceptions

Dude, brilliant post! I agree with every point made.

I'd consider myself a 4 on your scale. I lean more to the left on most issues, but apply the exact same logic you laid out to coming to a conclusion about any of them.

+rep

jeff f · Jan 1, 2010

ViRedd said:
Heads up ...

Rick is right ... your employer is breaking the law. As an independent contractor, your employer cannot require you to do anything. By this I mean, require you to attend meetings, what time to show up for work, what time to leave work or set your hours. You should turn this son-of-a-bitch in to the proper authorities. I'm sure the IRS would love to know his game. And by the way ... if there are monies owed to the IRS, you may be elgible for a 10% reward of all monies recovered. Same applies to the State Franchise Tax Board.

not necessarily true vi. without knowing his exact business i can tell you that in the home building business its almost a given that nobody but a very select few individuals will be employees. most will be subcontractors.

now if the boss is giving vacation times, denying days off, ect. then he is more than likely illegal. but if you report him and you are wrong, you will be looking for work and you will be blackballed by every contractor in the area. not saying its right, just saying thats how it is.

if i have an employee who causes me trouble, every contractor who asks me about them gets the truth.

make your choices wisely.

JustAnotherFriedDay · Jan 1, 2010

PadawanBater said:
Dude, brilliant post! I agree with every point made.

I'd consider myself a 4 on your scale. I lean more to the left on most issues, but apply the exact same logic you laid out to coming to a conclusion about any of them.

+rep

Good to see we can agree on how we go about disagreeing.

things can always be broken down more and more to a point where opinion is so specific two cannot be exactly similar.

I'm sure deep to their core even Bush/Cheney had some opposing views.

laughingduck · Jan 2, 2010

Contract labor will make a huge comeback, because this will be the only way for small buisiness to make any money. I also believe goverment could take the 50% in taxes that are waisted in the beuracracy to pay for free healthcare and give everyone a tax break.
Oh yea, liberals are folks that think they pay taxes, they have never exurted themselves to make enough money to really feal the pain of paying taxes. (45% tax rate makes me feal raped on payday)

JustAnotherFriedDay · Jan 2, 2010

laughingduck said:
Contract labor will make a huge comeback, because this will be the only way for small buisiness to make any money. I also believe goverment could take the 50% in taxes that are waisted in the beuracracy to pay for free healthcare and give everyone a tax break.
Oh yea, liberals are folks that think they pay taxes, they have never exurted themselves to make enough money to really feal the pain of paying taxes. (45% tax rate makes me feal raped on payday)

My uncle is a contractor. he used to be a multi millionaire but has had to resort to selling most everything he has. thankfully he still has his home. he was sitting on 17 homes ready to be sold off when shit hit the fan in 08

i really, really hope contract labor makes an awesome comeback. my uncle used to take my boating to the san juans! was so fun! now he cannot do that anymore.

very random and is irrelevant to what u said but i had to throw it out there. contractors are hurtinggggg

medicineman · Jan 9, 2010

JustAnotherFriedDay said:
My uncle is a contractor. he used to be a multi millionaire but has had to resort to selling most everything he has. thankfully he still has his home. he was sitting on 17 homes ready to be sold off when shit hit the fan in 08

i really, really hope contract labor makes an awesome comeback. my uncle used to take my boating to the san juans! was so fun! now he cannot do that anymore.

very random and is irrelevant to what u said but i had to throw it out there. contractors are hurtinggggg

And so are about a million latinos, because in the last 20 years or so, they have stolen all the construction jobs in the housing industry. What, you work for 25.00 an hour, I can find a hundred latinos that will work for much less, Now the average housing construction wage is around 10.00. Who do you think benefited from this? Your right, the contractors. The price of houses never came down untill the collapse.

Johnnyorganic · Jan 9, 2010

medicineman said:
And so are about a million latinos, because in the last 20 years or so, they have stolen all the construction jobs in the housing industry. What, you work for 25.00 an hour, I can find a hundred latinos that will work for much less, Now the average housing construction wage is around 10.00. Who do you think benefited from this? Your right, the contractors. The price of houses never came down untill the collapse.

And how many of those Latinos are legal immigrants?

Furthermore, which party favors immigration "reform?"

Welcome back, Meddie

medicineman · Jan 9, 2010

Johnnyorganic said:
And how many of those Latinos are legal immigrants?

Furthermore, which party favors immigration "reform?"

Welcome back, Meddie

What, you're not calling me names and yelling at me. Hey, I'm not blind. I worked construction for years, as a carpenter. Made 25.00 an hour in the 70s and 80s + Benefits, Union of course. Actually some of the blame can be laid at the feet of the tradesmen themselves. When they started pieceworking and making 4-5 times as much in a day busting ass, they set the stage for the "latinos" to come in and challenge them for their jobs. II'll tell you this, those "latinos" work their asses off for 10.00 an hour, and pretty soon, all those pieceworking whities were gone. No more union in the tracts. See Greed fucked them in the arse. No-one asked for citizenship papers, but they (the contractors) knew damn well what the score was, Phony SS cards and Drivers Licenses and all.
Gotta run.

ViRedd · Jan 9, 2010

jeff f said:
not necessarily true vi. without knowing his exact business i can tell you that in the home building business its almost a given that nobody but a very select few individuals will be employees. most will be subcontractors.

now if the boss is giving vacation times, denying days off, ect. then he is more than likely illegal. but if you report him and you are wrong, you will be looking for work and you will be blackballed by every contractor in the area. not saying its right, just saying thats how it is.

if i have an employee who causes me trouble, every contractor who asks me about them gets the truth.

make your choices wisely.

Thanks for the input, Jeff. I was relating the independent contractor status with the business I'm in, which is real estate. Don't know much about the contruction end of things. I know that in the RE business, the broker/owner cannot even require his/her agents to buy business cards.

jeff f · Jan 9, 2010

JustAnotherFriedDay said:
My uncle is a contractor. he used to be a multi millionaire but has had to resort to selling most everything he has. thankfully he still has his home. he was sitting on 17 homes ready to be sold off when shit hit the fan in 08

i really, really hope contract labor makes an awesome comeback. my uncle used to take my boating to the san juans! was so fun! now he cannot do that anymore.

very random and is irrelevant to what u said but i had to throw it out there. contractors are hurtinggggg

you aint kidding. thats the only reason i do any work for the state (about 20 hours per week). my phone used to ring off the hook even through winter. now....whew....if it isnt an emergency, people arent getting it done.

the whole illegal immigrant part of it. not really sure. my heart tells me, god bless them for working hard for very little pay. my head tells me that paying illegals 10 bucks for a 20 dollar job is wrong. a lot of issues on both sides.

jrh72582 · Jan 9, 2010

jeff f said:
the whole illegal immigrant part of it. not really sure. my heart tells me, god bless them for working hard for very little pay. my head tells me that paying illegals 10 bucks for a 20 dollar job is wrong. a lot of issues on both sides.

Why? Aren't you a capitalist?

Well, I can tell you why, but you never listen. I've asked you to respond to my Maslow argument 4 times now, but you won't. Why?

ViRedd · Jan 9, 2010

There's nothing wrong with Paying $10 an hour to get a job done. What's wrong is that the $10 per hour is being paid to trespassers who have broken the law in order to get the job. Those $10 jobs should be going to low-income, inner-city folks who are legally here in the United States. You know ... the inner-cities where unemployment is reaching 30% any beyond??? http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=119695

CrackerJax · Jan 9, 2010

ViRedd said:
There's nothing wrong with Paying $10 an hour to get a job done. What's wrong is that the $10 per hour is being paid to trespassers who have broken the law in order to get the job. Those $10 jobs should be going to low-income, inner-city folks who are legally here in the United States. You know ... the inner-cities where unemployment is reaching 30% any beyond??? http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=119695

That's exactly right. You don't reward cheaters. There's a front door, use it.

Remember when you go to the theatre and you're waiting in line outside for 30 minutes and you watch somebody cut in line?

It's no different. If it was one or two, you might shrug it off, but if it's 50 ppl and now you have to wait even longer or the movie sells out because of them ... don't tell me you wouldn't get peeved.

Cheaters aren't supposed to prosper. Not in a healthy society.

We don't have a healthy society.

jrh72582 · Jan 9, 2010

CrackerJax said:
Cheaters aren't supposed to prosper. Not in a healthy society.

We don't have a healthy society.

I've never seen an immigrant prosper by anyone's standards. Who are you kidding?

Remember, the biggest trick the rich played on the middle class was to convince them to blame the poor for their problems rather than the rich. Are you that gullible?

Johnnyorganic · Jan 9, 2010

medicineman said:
What, you're not calling me names and yelling at me. Hey, I'm not blind. I worked construction for years, as a carpenter. Made 25.00 an hour in the 70s and 80s + Benefits, Union of course. Actually some of the blame can be laid at the feet of the tradesmen themselves. When they started pieceworking and making 4-5 times as much in a day busting ass, they set the stage for the "latinos" to come in and challenge them for their jobs. II'll tell you this, those "latinos" work their asses off for 10.00 an hour, and pretty soon, all those pieceworking whities were gone. No more union in the tracts. See Greed fucked them in the arse. No-one asked for citizenship papers, but they (the contractors) knew damn well what the score was, Phony SS cards and Drivers Licenses and all.
Gotta run.

Sort of hard to yell over the internet UNLESS YOU DO IT LIKE THIS!

When is the last time I called you a name, Meddie?

Specific example please.

RickWhite · Jan 9, 2010

jrh72582 said:
I've never seen an immigrant prosper by anyone's standards. Who are you kidding?

Remember, the biggest trick the rich played on the middle class was to convince them to blame the poor for their problems rather than the rich. Are you that gullible?

Man, people really have a way of allowing their words to tattle on their true beliefs.

So the poor middle class ought to blame the rich for their problems instead of blaming the poor for their problems? How about taking some of the responsibility for their problems upon themselves?Evidently, that is a concept of which you are unfamiliar. Quite telling really.

I personally become inspired when I see a rich man. And although I may never get there, I'm going to do my best and be happy with what I have achieved. Of course I am always open to advice from them.

Or, you can piss and moan about who aside from you is responsible for your problems. Not very productive IMO.

hanimmal · Jan 9, 2010

Vi, Cj, And RW, I cannot believe this but I am with you (except the immigrant part but that is minor). People do need to take responsibility for their own lives, and the wealthy should be respected for working hard and smart to get to where they are. Also Vi I am with you that the inner city people should be getting those jobs at minimum wage over illegal immigrants.

The only thing I will disagree with is that there is no reason that it is the mexicans fault. They are doing the thing we should admire, working hard being fiscally responsible (saving and buying only what was needed). But I will go as far and say that is actually bad for the economy.

We need the jobs we have to be here and buy goods here. I don't begrudge them, because if nothing else those builders are making more and are going to spend it in america so that is fine. But if their wages stayed here in the states it would mean that we had even that much more money circulating and the economy would be that much better.

But in reality those jobs need to be filled, and any contractor would take an english speaking inner city person (well maybe not a crackhead) over someone that they cannot communicate with any day of the week. And if people from the poor american communities are not willing to work those jobs for the wage they offer then the mexicans may as well.

jrh72582 · Jan 9, 2010

RickWhite said:
Man, people really have a way of allowing their words to tattle on their true beliefs.

So the poor middle class ought to blame the rich for their problems instead of blaming the poor for their problems? How about taking some of the responsibility for their problems upon themselves?Evidently, that is a concept of which you are unfamiliar. Quite telling really.

I personally become inspired when I see a rich man. And although I may never get there, I'm going to do my best and be happy with what I have achieved. Of course I am always open to advice from them.

Or, you can piss and moan about who aside from you is responsible for your problems. Not very productive IMO.

Slippery slope. Try again. My contention holds because you failed to address it - stop dropping arguments.

The middle class (as in working, you moron) tend to blame the poor more than rich, when the rich have designed a system to screw the middle class in the ass. Between politicians, corporations, and lobbyists, a system has arisen that fucks everyone but the rich. But yet the middle will blame the poor, assuming they can't get ahead because of illegals and social security, when the real reason is wholly otherwise. Now respond.

CrackerJax · Jan 10, 2010

No one is blaming the Mexicans for trying to improve themselves. There are already ways set up for them to enter this country LEGALLY, so I don't care how you slice the pie ... it's still tastes sour.

There are tons of ppl every year who WORK their butts off to get here the right way. It is not fair to them. It's not fair to the USA as a whole.

Solution? Mexico needs to create enough jobs at home so most of the men don't leave. It is partly their fault (Mexican Govt.) for not utilizing the manpower they have. You don't see millions of Americans climbing outside the country working illegally in Canada do you? Why's that?

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