Lost In A Sea Of Nutrients? Advanced Nutrients, Canna etc.

I was once an AN fan boy. Its sad really. I htink back and get very angry, at them, at myself, I was so nieve.

99.9999% of cannabis growers are hobbyists. Very few of us have technical training from a college or university in horticulture or botany. An un-educated customer base is a vulnurable customer base. Generally speaking we dont have the knowledge to read through the bullshit, the fancy labels, the fancy names, flashy websites etc. It is far easier to sell an un aware person something they dont need for a high price than it is soemone in the know. For this reason the "cannabis specific" market has flourished, producing sub par nutrients and selling them for outrageous premium prices.

You will grow fine herb with AN. However it will cost you far more money per ounce and you wont get the results of a superior Fertilizer. On top of that you will be overwhelmed with needless addiitves, which is fine when everythings fine. But when things go wrong and deficiencies start to show or your plants just plain go downhill it becomes much more complicated to diagnose when you are cooking a nutrient soup. Its hard to fix an issue when you have 8 additives, where do you start?

The government and companies like AN have one thing in common. They want you to beleive that Cannabis is some super special, almost synthetic plant, that has to be grown in a special way using special chemicals. The reality is just the opposite. Its just a plant, like any other (minus the cannabinoids odviously). Educate yourself about the inner workings of plants in general and you will be 2000 times the grower than if you just wander into a store and buy the most expensive, most colourful bottle of snake oil.

Motherhugger said:

If you have to choose just one, I would go with Advanced Nutrients.

A simple setup includes:

Sensi A&B
Big Bud
Voodoo Juice
B-52
Overdrive

Now, you can go with fewer nutes too, but that's a good base regimen.

If you have to cut back, go for it. Things will still work out well.

Good luck with your grow!

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I have used that line up myself, here are my thoughts wether anyone cares or not

Sensi A/B is a cheapo 2 part base that doesnt even come close to supplying all the micro nutrients a plant needs. In soil and hydro if you dont use additives you will experience defficiencies at some point.

Big Bud is a molasses base bloom booster. It is almost identical to bud candy but has a slightly higher fertilizer content and less "other crap". Its nothing special, there are about 90 other competing products that are just as good, slightly worse, or slightly better.

Voodoo is good stuff, but its a total rip off. Not only is it expensive per litre but it also has a terrible mixing ratio. When it first came out it was 7 ml per litre!! Now its something like 2ml per litre. For the record if somehting calls for a ratio of more than 1ml or 2ml per GALLON ( 4 litres in a gallon) it is needlessly diluted.

B-52 is funny. I have never seen a single independent university or college study proving that B-vitamins and hormones administered through the root system do anyitng at all for a plant. I have used this product and other B-vitamin products and never seen a thing. There is a reason why commercial fertilizer companies don't sell B-vitamin/hormone supplements.

Overdrive- same as shooting powder etc... Its just a blast of P and K.

After AN, what ferts do you use?

Imaulle said:

the people who go to college and get a real education in horticulture use Dyna-Gro

I highly recommend you get the following

dyna-gro foliage pro - http://www.hydroponics.net/i/133215
dyna-gro bloom - http://www.hydroponics.net/i/133534
dyna-gro pro-tekt - http://www.hydroponics.net/i/133537
dyna-gro mag-pro - http://www.hydroponics.net/i/133535

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quote from other thread

Actually Imaulle, that's a quote from this thread. If you say it enough it might become true?

Dyna-Gro is not the end-all, be-all of fertilizers, and I've never had an honest-to-goodness horticulturist recommend it. Like everyone else, they've all got their own favorite thing.

Coals said:

Sensi A/B is a cheapo 2 part base that doesnt even come close to supplying all the micro nutrients a plant needs. In soil and hydro if you dont use additives you will experience defficiencies at some point.

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There's an old adage about carpenters and tools... I've grown several times with nothing but Sensi A/B and never had a single deficiency. I'm no growing god, so it's clearly not some extraordinary ability on my part. There's nothing wrong with the fert.

Coals said:

Big Bud is a molasses base bloom booster. It is almost identical to bud candy but has a slightly higher fertilizer content and less "other crap". Its nothing special, there are about 90 other competing products that are just as good, slightly worse, or slightly better.

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Laughable. Bud Candy is a flavor enhancer combined with a carbohydrate source. It is quite literally Carbo Load and Sweet Leaf combined. That is in no way similar to the contents of Bud Bud, which is IMHO the best bloom booster out there. Just my 2c.

Coals said:

Voodoo is good stuff, but its a total rip off. Not only is it expensive per litre but it also has a terrible mixing ratio. When it first came out it was 7 ml per litre!! Now its something like 2ml per litre. For the record if somehting calls for a ratio of more than 1ml or 2ml per GALLON ( 4 litres in a gallon) it is needlessly diluted.

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That's a bit of an over-generalization. If you're talking about bargain basement unchelated nutrients then yeah, you can bottle at those concentrations. If you're talking about proper hydroponic nutes with multiple chelation and pH buffers you can't concentrate them that far without creating insoluble precipitates.

Coals said:

B-52 is funny. I have never seen a single independent university or college study proving that B-vitamins and hormones administered through the root system do anyitng at all for a plant. I have used this product and other B-vitamin products and never seen a thing. There is a reason why commercial fertilizer companies don't sell B-vitamin/hormone supplements.

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I don't know anyone who's ever had measles, mumps, or rubella, but that doesn't mean the vaccine we get for them doesn't serve a purpose. (And yes, I realize the difference is that vaccines are proven to work. But simply because something hasn't been proven doesn't mean it doesn't work.) Even if there's a 99% chance I'll never be exposed to the disease, I'd still rather get a vaccine against something capable of the damage they can do.

As I said, it's a little bit of a mis-matched metaphor so please don't restate the errors I've already pointed out. B vitamins don't directly prevent diseases and so on, I understand. The point is that in an otherwise healthy plant you're not likely to see much benefit from B-vitamins. However, they do help alleviate stress in plants and make them more resilient to problems that might occur. Sort of like a person who takes their vitamins every day - you may not run faster, see farther, or really measurably beat out another person (assuming both eat a reasonably healthy diet). But the person with the better vitamin intake would be less likely to get sick as frequently given the same exposure to disease vectors.


It's equally easy to say B-vitamins help plants as it is to say they don't help plants, and it's damn hard to test outside a lab.

I don't put all that much faith in what hasn't been proven one way or the other, especially when there's studies like this out there: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8386344.stm
That study says skunk strains carry a 7-fold increase in risk of psychosis. Do you believe that?

Coals said:

Overdrive- same as shooting powder etc... Its just a blast of P and K.

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They both are designed to do the same thing, so what? If you follow the directions you'll add 1 sachet of Shooting Powder per 25 gallons the third-to-last week of flowering and 2 sachets per 25 gal for the last two weeks. Overdrive is 200mL per 25 gal for the last two weeks. $65 for five sachets of Shooting Powder vs. $30 for a liter of Overdrive and it lasts 2.5 times as long.

Easy math.

I have to lean towards the Pro AN side from personal experience.

I agree with h o p that the Sensi A/B Duo are not lacking..

I used Sensi A/B Grow and Bloom, on my first grow in 7 yrs, and my first hydro grow, first scrog. And despite all the mistakes I made the combination (Dangerous as it can be if wrongly mixed-just as any nute though) kept at least one of my plants online, and brought one back from death (You'd have to check out my grow in my sig, I'm not gonna repeat all that here)

Now there are issues right now with the line as far as i actually see. And that is that there are two separate lines for the Sensi A and two for the Sensi B. I guess an old line and a new. I actually saw two Sensi A Blooms with 2 different N-P-K formulas SAME bottle label design. So THAT to me is a little issue they really need to solve. But no one seems to be complaining so?????

Whatever I did wrong in my grow totally took down my biggest plant. But flushing her and putting her back on 1/2 strength for a week, then full 100% worked great. Even though she never grew, i didn't completely lose the plant and the trics on her are just ... phew.... so I'm attributing that to the Nutes.... Of course my taking care of her helped but the nutes are what is bringing out the potential in her, even in her dwarfed state.


Pure...

you will always get better results mixing nutrients fresh. elements combine over time and form compounds (nute lockout)

as water evaporates salts increase.

there is a distinct reason why products are separated by specific groups of chemicals. if by PROFIT you mean, the only way a company can MAKE a profit is if their products actually work, then yes, thats why they are separated by specific groups of chemicals.

to an extent yes, they proliferate over-spending, but, all of it works, and it all makes SOME difference.

farmboss said:

you will always get better results mixing nutrients fresh. elements combine over time and form compounds (nute lockout)

as water evaporates salts increase.

there is a distinct reason why products are separated by specific groups of chemicals. if by PROFIT you mean, the only way a company can MAKE a profit is if their products actually work, then yes, thats why they are separated by specific groups of chemicals.

to an extent yes, they proliferate over-spending, but, all of it works, and it all makes SOME difference.

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Hmm Sounds logical enough for +Rep ...

Pure...

farmboss said:

there is a distinct reason why products are separated by specific groups of chemicals. if by PROFIT you mean, the only way a company can MAKE a profit is if their products actually work, then yes, thats why they are separated by specific groups of chemicals.

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Many companies out there are able to combine their base nutes into one part so when you see 2 part base nutes, that should be a red flag. Unless of course we're talking about 3 part systems which are split up for both bonding issues and versatility.

homebrewer said:

Many companies out there are able to combine their base nutes into one part so when you see 2 part base nutes, that should be a red flag. Unless of course we're talking about 3 part systems which are split up for both bonding issues and versatility.

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i don't look at separation of products as a bad thing.

read the chemical analysis. you should KNOW WHAT you WANT to buy. its not magic, its literally SCIENCE.

With less than half a decade of growing experience I have to say I still have a lot to learn. I splurged on Iguana Juice and overdrive last grow, and the results were the best I've had as of yet, so I'm quite pleased. Also the sweetest smelling grow I've had. The thing that got me was their write up about P toxicity in soilless mixes. I realized that I've been having this problem all along. Plants turning yellow and spotting way to early. I also noticed that Botanicare's P ratio was low too in their bloom formula. Something I thought was strange considering all the high P bloom nutes out there, and so many steering growers in the high P direction. I guess high P is OK in soil. I use PM. Anyway, I'm convinced that the high P thing being not good in PM is true, but I'm not a botanist either. Can anyone else comment on this? Wouldn't mind if anyone wanted to check out my Iguana Grow album I posted. Thanks..

farmboss said:

read the chemical analysis. you should KNOW WHAT you WANT to buy. its not magic, its literally SCIENCE.

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You're exactly right, that's why several of the more experienced members recommended nutrient brands that are complete and reasonably priced (see second post).

squarepush3r said:

I'm not really convinced Dyna-gro is all that suited to grow cannabis. Yes, its a quality formula with good ingredients and lots of trace minerals, at a good price, however their ratio's seem to be way off for anything I've seen designed for targetted Cannabis cultivation. Just food for thought.

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I second that opinion, horticultural graduates use dyna grow so therefore it must be the schiznits??

newworldicon said:

I second that opinion, horticultural graduates use dyna grow so therefore it must be the schiznits??

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3-1-2 for veg and 1-3-2 for flower, those are the generally excepted ideal ratios for growing cannabis. DynaGro happens to provide those ratios in their formulas along with all the trace minerals required by plants. Those ratios can be achieved with other brands but it usually takes several bottles and $$$ as apposed to DG where it only takes one. Even when you've achieved those ratios with other brands, they're still lacking a handful of the trace elements. That is why DG is available in 5, 15 and 55 gallon bottles if needed, it's commercial-grade, not for the beginner hobbyist with more money than brains.

homebrewer said:

3-1-2 for veg and 1-3-2 for flower, those are the generally excepted ideal ratios for growing cannabis. DynaGro happens to provide those ratios in their formulas along with all the trace minerals required by plants. Those ratios can be achieved with other brands but it usually takes several bottles and $$$ as apposed to DG where it only takes one. Even when you've achieved those ratios with other brands, they're still lacking a handful of the trace elements. That is why DG is available in 5, 15 and 55 gallon bottles if needed, it's commercial-grade, not for the beginner hobbyist with more money than brains.

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I feel this discussion, thread and all that goes with it is uneccessary, the bottom line is you can discuss the finer details of the different nute lines till the cows come home. They all have a place, some being slightly better than the next but what none of you have mentioned in this thread is that once again good crops come from a combination of all the factors involved in growing, not just the nutrients.

BUT I understand that there are a lot of people on here that really love discussing the tiny little details of things like which is the best nutrient etc. by all means go for it!!

But by my own standards I have succeeded very well in hauling excellent crops just using AN connoisseur without all the other stuff and most recently running out of that and simply using Ionic bloom with nothing else to pull 3 pounds of dried bud from 8x church plants and 8x medi bud plants all grown 12/12 from seed.

My point being this.........there is a lot to indoor growing which requires a balance between all of the factors required, not just nutrients. And in the context of this discussion it seems logical to want to discuss which is best nute pound for pound but I cannot see how that question will ever be answered, simply because of all the other factors that need to be considered and managed similtaneously.

Personally I want to be able to open as few bottles as possible to get my results.

newworldicon said:

I feel this discussion, thread and all that goes with it is uneccessary, the bottom line is you can discuss the finer details of the different nute lines till the cows come home. They all have a place, some being slightly better than the next but what none of you have mentioned in this thread is that once again good crops come from a combination of all the factors involved in growing, not just the nutrients.

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People are discussing nutrients because that is the subject of the thread title. You're right that other factors can absolutely make or break a grow, but that's a different thread.

homebrewer said:

People are discussing nutrients because that is the subject of the thread title. You're right that other factors can absolutely make or break a grow, but that's a different thread.

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I feel I should be more specific about that point after reading it again now, I believe the original question to the thread was which nutrient was best in a bewildering array of products available on the market today, that question has not been answered yet because you and the other guy who cheers Dyna Gro on have side tracked it with reference to your documented experiment. I shall also make it clear that I do not assume you love the stuff yourself. The point I was trying to make was that considering all other environmental factors are spot on for the duration of the grow then the nutrient brand you choose would never make such a massive difference that it would naturally fall into the category of "fine tuning the grow". This improvement may only constitute I'm guessing... 10-15% extra weight at the end of the day, a difference that is not that much to get excited about. I grew with connoisseur, Probably the most expensive £ for £ and then with average old Ionic bloom which was a third of the price and frankly the grow with Ionic was far better when it came to results. I would still use the Connoisseur again as it is a good product, they are all good at what they do.

newworldicon said:

The point I was trying to make was that considering all other environmental factors are spot on for the duration of the grow then the nutrient brand you choose would never make such a massive difference that it would naturally fall into the category of "fine tuning the grow". This improvement may only constitute I'm guessing... 10-15% extra weight at the end of the day, a difference that is not that much to get excited about.

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This is where you're wrong. On my first run with DynaGro, I out-yielded GH by 6% or something like that (16 ounce average vs 17 ounce with dynagro) and GH is a brand I have years of experience with. Same conditions, same environment, same 600 hps, same cloned strain. That was 6 months ago and instead of 16 ounces each harvest with GH, I'm getting 20-21 ounces with DynaGro (just pulled in 591 grams of Dumpster and 560 off of AK47). I'm not discounting environment, but you are discounting the role complete nutrition and ideal NPK ratios can play in plant health and yields. Now, it doesn't matter to me what brand you use but if you were going to take something away from this thread, look for a complete water soluble plant food with roughly the same ratios that I pointed out in a previous post.

IF you really want a mind fuck then go here http://scienceinhydroponics.com/

Its more of a Hydro thing but very very informational.

homebrewer said:

This is where you're wrong. On my first run with DynaGro, I out-yielded GH by 6% or something like that (16 ounce average vs 17 ounce with dynagro) and GH is a brand I have years of experience with. Same conditions, same environment, same 600 hps, same cloned strain. That was 6 months ago and instead of 16 ounces each harvest with GH, I'm getting 20-21 ounces with DynaGro (just pulled in 591 grams of Dumpster and 560 off of AK47). I'm not discounting environment, but you are discounting the role complete nutrition and ideal NPK ratios can play in plant health and yields. Now, it doesn't matter to me what brand you use but if you were going to take something away from this thread, look for a complete water soluble plant food with roughly the same ratios that I pointed out in a previous post.

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Okay so you are saying then that dyna gro helped you to gain 4-5 oz per grow, excellent work. This comparison is against general hydroponic, not others I assume? How would it compare to say connoisseur then?
It still does not answer the original question to this thread.......what do I get in an array of products out there?
I think at this point I cannot offer brand advice as what we get here in the UK is somewhat different to what you guys get in the states bar AN and GH.

PS. I don't think for a second that I have given any indication that I demote the role of nutrition and balanced nutrition at that.