Make Liberalism Great Again

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Show me one that's operational.

Solar, wind, tide, geothermal- these are all operational NOW, which is when we need them.
We do, and we need other sources and improvements in efficiency too. Switching from fossil fuels requires major systematic shifts. Here's a TED talk that pretty much convinced me that we are blowing smoke if we don't seriously talk about including nuclear. He provides a sensible and easy to understand explanation of why sustainable alternatives, while part of the solution can't tackle the whole problem

http://www.ted.com/talks/david_mackay_a_reality_check_on_renewables
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Show me the corporate executive who spends millions on anything but a sure thing and I'll show you a guy out of a job.

I'm sorry but this is naive.
Happens all the time in big tech companies. Depends on the size of the business. Big companies can easily afford to buy both sides of the aisle.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
SECOND HALF OF THE ARTICLE:

Summers’ Shout Out for Austerity

Summers’ subtitle warns that Trump’s tax proposals “would threaten to increase federal debt and interest rates.” In other words, Summers is banging the war drums to renew the New Democrats’ long austerity war against the working class. There are two parts to Summers argument. First, Trump’s proposed tax cuts are crafted to help the wealthiest Americans. Second, the tax cuts would increase the budget deficit. Summers’ first argument is mostly fine, indeed, it is understated. (He makes the false claim that President Reagan’s tax cuts did not favor the wealthy and represented a “bipartisan” “reform.”) Trump’s plan is to betray the 99% and rig the system to lock in the power and wealth of the one percent (indeed, the top .0001). Trump remains, as he has been for decades, a crony capitalist.

Summers’ second argument is “Austerity Forever.” He leads with another code phrase for austerity, implying that the proper standard for any tax changes is that they be “revenue-neutral reforms.” That means no net tax cuts. Why? What we know, as even Summers agreed, was that President Obama (who told New Democrats that he was a New Democrat) proposed a stimulus program that he knew (because Summers told him) was far too small and then turned his back on stimulus and then in early 2010 in the State of the Union abandoned stimulus and proposed austerity (the code, provided by the Rubinite Jack Lew, was that the federal government should “pull in its belt” in response to the Great Recession because households were doing so).

The 2009 stimulus, though deeply inadequate, materially increased U.S. growth. The self-destructive switch by January 2010 to supporting austerity greatly extended the recovery time from the Great Recession and weakened job market reovery. The U.S. economy could benefit greatly from stimulus even now, so why should Democrats be insisting that they will fight any net tax cut? Summers’ answer, as always, is the need for austerity. He stresses that Trump’s (net) tax cuts would violate austerity.

It would also mean grave damage to federal budget projections. The envisioned Trump tax cut is about the same size relative to the economy as the 1981 Reagan tax cut. It is worth remembering that Reagan, hardly a fan of reversing course or raising taxes, found it necessary to propose significant tax increases in 1982 and 1984 (the equivalent in today’s economy of $3.5tn over a decade) due to concerns about federal debt.

So, we now have the New Democrats’ lead economist, Summers, telling us we should be in panic mode because Reagan had such a dogmatic belief in austerity that he raised taxes (though, net, Reagan actually cut taxes). Summers is seriously proposing that the Democrats should take their policy advice on austerity from Reagan! He claims that Democrats, in response to the revolt of the white working class, should embrace austerity and renew the New Democrats’ long war against the white working class even though he knows that is terrible economics and politics. Reagan knew next to nothing about macroeconomics. Let me be explicit – both the Old Republicans like Reagan and the New Democrats shared this embrace of austerity’s long war against the working class. Reagan’s embrace of austerity was a key contributor to the stagnation of working class wages and the rise of the plutocrats. This is how out of touch the New Democrats are with the American people – Summers’ sees Reagan as the role model that Democrats should emulate.

Summers goes so far as to claim that stimulus would slow growth.

Today’s budget situation is much more worrisome. The baseline involves much higher levels of debt and deficits. Then the economy was suffering from a deep recession; now it approaches full employment. If extreme tax cuts are legislated in the next months, uncertainty about the federal budget and about further tax adjustments is likely to rise. Finally, I can find no basis in either economic history or logic for Mr Mnuchin’s claim that the proposed reforms would increase the economy’s growth rate from its current 2 per cent rate to the historical 3 to 4 per cent norm. Adult population growth has slowed by nearly a percentage point, the gains generated by more women entering the workforce have been exhausted, and it is far from clear why tax reform will hugely spur productivity growth.

Indeed, because the Trump proposal would redistribute after-tax income towards those most likely to save it, push up long-term interest rates because of debt pressures, increase uncertainty and the advantages of overseas production, it is as likely to retard growth as to accelerate it.

Summers’ second paragraph has some important truth. As with the second President Bush’s tax cuts, Trump’s proposed cuts go so heavily to the plutocrats that they will have less stimulus effect because so much of the cuts will be saved rather than spent. The reduces the stimulus of the proposed tax cuts, it does not eliminate it.

The first paragraph is mostly an opportunity for Summers’ to renew his “secular stagnation” claims that suggest that the U.S., and much of the global economy, will suffer from weak growth under austerity for many decades. If Summers is correct, then stimulus is particularly vital now. But Summers’ primary cause is austerity, so he claims that we should accept weak growth and higher unemployment. If Summers were correct about secular stagnation, however, the imperative policy response would be to end the New Democrats and the Old Republicans’ long war of austerity against the working class and ensure that the federal government provided a guarantee that it would serve as the employer of last resort. Summers, of course, claims that our current condition closely approaches “full employment” and we need not worry about the millions of Americans who have dropped out of the labor force or are unemployed or underemployed. At the insipid growth rates he believes will become the norm under austerity, the unemployment rates would grow substantially.
So, tax cuts that don't actually grow the economy are bad. Spending cuts aka austerity are bad. Deficit spending forever with the option of govmint employment forever is good. (really?) Nothing said here about targeted tax increases is there?

I don't know, man. I don't see a solution here. Just more deficits.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
We do, and we need other sources and improvements in efficiency too. Switching from fossil fuels requires major systematic shifts. Here's a TED talk that pretty much convinced me that we are blowing smoke if we don't seriously talk about including nuclear. He provides a sensible and easy to understand explanation of why sustainable alternatives, while part of the solution can't tackle the whole problem

http://www.ted.com/talks/david_mackay_a_reality_check_on_renewables
I cannot in good conscience condone the use of nuclear energy for power generation on the Earth's surface.
 

Chunky Stool

Well-Known Member
I cannot in good conscience condone the use of nuclear energy for power generation on the Earth's surface.
Dang. I hate to agree with ddipStikk... :|

Two biggest problems with nuclear:
1) It's hard to be "disaster proof" when the definition keeps changing.
Fukashima had many safeguards in place (thanks to Chernobyl & other disasters) but it wasn't enough. They will be "decommissioning" that plant for the next 30 years.
Zero power output, 100% expense.
A lot of people will probably lose their lives because of indirect side-effects. Not good, no matter how you look at it.
2) Waste -- it doesn't decompose like compost. (Actually it does, but on a time scale that makes human existence insignificant.) The Hanford nuclear site has been decommissioned for quite a while -- and I still hear about workers getting sickened - and worse, from toxic shit. If you want a nuclear plant in your state, then your state should have to deal with the waste. Don't ship that shit off to some reservation site because someone quoted the lowest price. You made it, you deal with it.

Shh... don't wake up ddipStikk, he's got me on "ignore"...
:sleep: :shock: :o :cuss: :dunce: :finger:
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
I cannot in good conscience condone the use of nuclear energy for power generation on the Earth's surface.
Then you're stuck. Since youre a climate alarmist you can't exclude it for carbon based and you can't exclude it without carbon based unless you want to lowe the worlds energy which would kill a lot of people.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Why do you oppose nuclear energy?
It provides benefits for a century, but pollutes pretty much FOREVER. That's if things all go perfectly to plan and nothing ever gets spilled or melts down. Spills and meltdowns exacerbate this problem by orders of magnitude.

Is running the screen saver on your desktop really worth such an incredibly high cost?
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I cannot in good conscience condone the use of nuclear energy for power generation on the Earth's surface.
The video is about 18 minutes long and he was a decent speaker. Did you watch the vid? You get the idea, right? Is it a massive cut in consumption that is needed to end carbon emissions or something else?
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
The video is about 18 minutes long and he was a decent speaker. Did you watch the vid? You get the idea, right? Is it a massive cut in consumption that is needed to end carbon emissions or something else?
Did you know that half of all electricity produced is lost on the way to the customer?

Distributed production at home and at the place of business is now possible, efficient, less polluting, affordable and therefore attractive.
 
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Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Dang. I hate to agree with ddipStikk... :|

Two biggest problems with nuclear:
1) It's hard to be "disaster proof" when the definition keeps changing.
Fukashima had many safeguards in place (thanks to Chernobyl & other disasters) but it wasn't enough. They will be "decommissioning" that plant for the next 30 years.
Zero power output, 100% expense.
A lot of people will probably lose their lives because of indirect side-effects. Not good, no matter how you look at it.
2) Waste -- it doesn't decompose like compost. (Actually it does, but on a time scale that makes human existence insignificant.) The Hanford nuclear site has been decommissioned for quite a while -- and I still hear about workers getting sickened - and worse, from toxic shit. If you want a nuclear plant in your state, then your state should have to deal with the waste. Don't ship that shit off to some reservation site because someone quoted the lowest price. You made it, you deal with it.

Shh... don't wake up ddipStikk, he's got me on "ignore"...
:sleep: :shock: :o :cuss: :dunce: :finger:
I both agree and disagee with nuclear power. I don't know if there is a "safe" means of using nuclear energy. Fossil fuels are totally fucking up everything, so its not as if there is a choice to continue on with that. Biofuel is not even close to being able to meet goals in a lot of countries. Solar, assuming it can be manufactured in a carbon neutral way is by definition less than half the answer. Wind, less than that. Conservation maybe 25% of the answer. Geothermal, maybe a fraction of the whole.

Just replacing combustible engine-cars with electric is a heavy lift and doesn't really answer the energy production problem.

I'll keep an open mind as to nuclear. Today's tech is much better than the Japanese plants and not prone to run out of control like it did there. Completely agree that there has to be systematic cradle to grave plan for the fuel and waste.
 
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Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Did you know that half of all electricity produced is lost on the way to the customer?

Distributed production at home and at the place of business is now possible, efficient, non polluting, affordable and therefore attractive.
So, mini power plants in every home? What is the source of power for that? I've heard talk about fuel cells in that application. They run on ethanol, so, again it gets back to biofuel and home solar. Of course, ethanol has to be distributed, so, energy consumed there. Also it's a choice between food or fuel.

The US probably has enough land mass to produce a good portion of fuel for home use -- not corn, fuck that. I'd like to see how the people of the world can be fed at the same time, however.

This is a pretty good analysis of Britains energy options. There are nuclear free options listed in it. So, it can be done. The trade-offs are difficult but it is possible.

http://www.withouthotair.com/cft.pdf
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
So, mini power plants in every home? What is the source of power for that? I've heard talk about fuel cells in that application. They run on ethanol, so, again it gets back to biofuel and home solar. Of course, ethanol has to be distributed, so, energy consumed there. Also it's a choice between food or fuel.

The US probably has enough land mass to produce a good portion of fuel for home use -- not corn, fuck that. I'd like to see how the people of the world can be fed at the same time, however.

This is a pretty good analysis of Britains energy options. There are nuclear free options listed in it. So, it can be done. The trade-offs are difficult but it is possible.

http://www.withouthotair.com/cft.pdf
Fuel cells also run on natural gas. With only one carbon atom, natural gas emits less CO2 per BTU than any other fossil fuel. Since it can also be made organically, it's a natural bridge technology to a methane or hydrogen energy future.

Fuel cells could very easily be installed in homes and businesses, dramatically improving the efficiency of our power generation and distribution infrastructure. Just as a teaser, not only do they make useful heat but also CO2 that's useful for plants!
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Fuel cells also run on natural gas. With only one carbon atom, natural gas emits less CO2 per BTU than any other fossil fuel. Since it can also be made organically, it's a natural bridge technology to a methane or hydrogen energy future.

Fuel cells could very easily be installed in homes and businesses, dramatically improving the efficiency of our power generation and distribution infrastructure. Just as a teaser, not only do they make useful heat but also CO2 that's useful for plants!
not easily. Nor is the technology ready in terms of reliability. The following are the top three profitable fuel cell tech companies:
1.
2.
3.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
not easily. Nor is the technology ready in terms of reliability. The following are the top three profitable fuel cell tech companies:
1.
2.
3.
Funny, cell phone companies have been using them in their remote cell towers for years now.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I both agree and disagee with nuclear power. I don't know if there is a "safe" means of using nuclear energy. Fossil fuels are totally fucking up everything, so its not as if there is a choice to continue on with that. Biofuel is not even close to being able to meet goals in a lot of countries. Solar, assuming it can be manufactured in a carbon neutral way is by definition less than half the answer. Wind, less than that. Conservation maybe 25% of the answer. Geothermal, maybe a fraction of the whole.

Just replacing combustible engine-cars with electric is a heavy lift and doesn't really answer the energy production problem.

I'll keep an open mind as to nuclear. Today's tech is much better than the Japanese plants and not prone to run out of control like it did there. Completely agree that there has to be systematic cradle to grave plan for the fuel and waste.
None of the new tech addresses the longevity and the danger of the waste products.

If the aim is to save the planet for our progeny, it seems counterproductive to pollute it forever.
 

doublejj

Well-Known Member
if you guys want to have some fun aninamous just posted the private white house phone numbers....lol
Here are the ones that work, so far:

+1 (202) 456-1259
+1 (202) 456-1260
+1 (202) 456-3323
+1 (202) 456-3376
+1 (202) 395-1194
+1 (202) 456-1565
+1 (202) 395-1608
+1 (202) 456-2046
+1 (202) 456-2500
+1 (202) 456-4640
+1 (202) 456-3256
+1 (202) 456-3878
+1 (202) 395-1480
+1 (202) 456-3450
+1 (202) 456-4655
+1 (202) 456-4770
+1 (202) 456-1781
+1 (202) 456-2395
+1 (202) 395-4840
+1 (202) 456-3248
+1 (202) 456-4391
+1 (202) 456-7560
+1 (202) 456-4348
+1 (202) 456-3443
+1 (202) 456-2975
+1 (202) 456-3255
+1 (202) 456-4708
+1 (202) 456-3873
+1 (202) 456-6758
+1 (202) 456-5979
+1 (202) 456-4257
+1 (202) 456-4384
+1 (202) 456-5849
+1 (202) 456-4319
+1 (202) 456-4759
+1 (202) 456-5677
+1 (202) 456-1125
+1 (202) 456-4761
+1 (202) 456-4687
+1 (202) 456-4747
+1 (202) 456-2357
+1 (202) 456-4265
 

Big_Lou

Well-Known Member
if you guys want to have some fun aninamous just posted the private white house phone numbers....lol
Here are the ones that work, so far:

+1 (202) 456-1259
+1 (202) 456-1260
+1 (202) 456-3323
+1 (202) 456-3376
+1 (202) 395-1194
+1 (202) 456-1565
+1 (202) 395-1608
+1 (202) 456-2046
+1 (202) 456-2500
+1 (202) 456-4640
+1 (202) 456-3256
+1 (202) 456-3878
+1 (202) 395-1480
+1 (202) 456-3450
+1 (202) 456-4655
+1 (202) 456-4770
+1 (202) 456-1781
+1 (202) 456-2395
+1 (202) 395-4840
+1 (202) 456-3248
+1 (202) 456-4391
+1 (202) 456-7560
+1 (202) 456-4348
+1 (202) 456-3443
+1 (202) 456-2975
+1 (202) 456-3255
+1 (202) 456-4708
+1 (202) 456-3873
+1 (202) 456-6758
+1 (202) 456-5979
+1 (202) 456-4257
+1 (202) 456-4384
+1 (202) 456-5849
+1 (202) 456-4319
+1 (202) 456-4759
+1 (202) 456-5677
+1 (202) 456-1125
+1 (202) 456-4761
+1 (202) 456-4687
+1 (202) 456-4747
+1 (202) 456-2357
+1 (202) 456-4265
LOL!
 
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