No Till Living Soil Mix Questions

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Last week I saw one of the plants was extremely pale compared to the others and the bottom leaves were yellowing so I put some kelp meal, fish meal and some alfalfa pellets that I crushed in water with my hands on top of the pot and watered them in.
The down-turned ends of the leaflets on the yellowing fan leaves, along with the purple coloration lead me to suspect a phosphorus deficiency, and perhaps with nitrogen too. It could be a watering/drainage issue with that plant rather than an actual shortage of these nutrients. Under low oxygen conditions, you might be getting denitrification to an extent as a contributing factor as well.

I'd do a simple soil probe to check the condition of your soil deep in your pot. Just break off a wooden BBQ skewer or similar thing so that it has a very rough end with splinters sticking out and whatnot, but keep it long enough to reach the bottom of your pot. Stick it all the way down (rough side first), lift it up and give it a good smell with the rough part right under your nose. Does it smell like sweet soil, or does it smell like a sewer or barn? If the later, then we've found the problem.

If everything is good with drainage and watering, then it could very well be a lack of P and perhaps N. Things like alfalfa pellets break down quickly, but not fast enough to provide any benefit in the time you have left. If you can get a hold of it, I'd suggest a top dress of animal manure - chicken or hen manure pellets would be ideal and provide calcium too, but really any good strong manure will do as a source for at least some available P. Perhaps though the "Grow" stuff may help in time, but I have no idea of its potential NPK levels or how much readily available nutrients it might contain.

Hopefully you caught the hermie on time without too much pollen being released and blown around in there. Other than chop the offending plant if you feel you can't keep up with picking off all the sacks, there's nothing much you can do now except stay vigilant. There will likely be some seeds in your future - hopefully not too many.
 

NightSpider

Active Member
The down-turned ends of the leaflets on the yellowing fan leaves, along with the purple coloration lead me to suspect a phosphorus deficiency, and perhaps with nitrogen too. It could be a watering/drainage issue with that plant rather than an actual shortage of these nutrients. Under low oxygen conditions, you might be getting denitrification to an extent as a contributing factor as well.

I'd do a simple soil probe to check the condition of your soil deep in your pot. Just break off a wooden BBQ skewer or similar thing so that it has a very rough end with splinters sticking out and whatnot, but keep it long enough to reach the bottom of your pot. Stick it all the way down (rough side first), lift it up and give it a good smell with the rough part right under your nose. Does it smell like sweet soil, or does it smell like a sewer or barn? If the later, then we've found the problem.

If everything is good with drainage and watering, then it could very well be a lack of P and perhaps N. Things like alfalfa pellets break down quickly, but not fast enough to provide any benefit in the time you have left. If you can get a hold of it, I'd suggest a top dress of animal manure - chicken or hen manure pellets would be ideal and provide calcium too, but really any good strong manure will do as a source for at least some available P. Perhaps though the "Grow" stuff may help in time, but I have no idea of its potential NPK levels or how much readily available nutrients it might contain.

Hopefully you caught the hermie on time without too much pollen being released and blown around in there. Other than chop the offending plant if you feel you can't keep up with picking off all the sacks, there's nothing much you can do now except stay vigilant. There will likely be some seeds in your future - hopefully not too many.
I will check it asap, and if it is not anaerobic conditions, I will apply the manure. I have never really seen a chicken manure pellet nor did a top dress other than the one I mentioned. What so I do with the pellets? Do I crush or grind them? Do I just throw it over the straw and pour water?
 

NightSpider

Active Member
Is there a reason you specifically go for pellets in alfalfa chicken manure etc. instead of powders meals and such?

Also, if I do have drainage and aeration issues, what would I do to fix or at least help the situation?
 
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Northwood

Well-Known Member
Is there a reason you specifically go for pellets in alfalfa chicken manure etc. instead of powders meals and such?

Also, if I do have drainage and aeration issues, what would I do to fix or at least help the situation?
The feed & seed stores around here all sell their alfalfa in pellet form by the big feed bags. I don't even think they've even heard of alfalfa "meal" and might mistakenly fetch me a bucket of silage. lol

I originally used organic hen manure pellets in my initial mix because that's the only chicken manure available at my corner Canadian Tire store. It's this one here: https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/acti-sol-hen-manure-1-36-kg-1590101p.html

Edit: Oops, I forgot your last question. TBH I wouldn't know what to do at this stage in your grow to improve drainage if you have anaerobic conditions with heavy soil, other than perhaps prop them off the floor a bit to get some airflow underneath them as well.
 
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NightSpider

Active Member
I might have done an oopsie again haha. I ordered "chicken manure fertilizer" and it came not in pellet but a dust/compost texture. It says it is chicken manure "aerobically fermented" which I guess they are trying to said composted for 2 years. For fast fiz of phosphorus did I need a non composted version?
The feed & seed stores around here all sell their alfalfa in pellet form by the big feed bags. I don't even think they've even heard of alfalfa "meal" and might mistakenly fetch me a bucket of silage. lol

I originally used organic hen manure pellets in my initial mix because that's the only chicken manure available at my corner Canadian Tire store. It's this one here: https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/acti-sol-hen-manure-1-36-kg-1590101p.html

Edit: Oops, I forgot your last question. TBH I wouldn't know what to do at this stage in your grow to improve drainage if you have anaerobic conditions with heavy soil, other than perhaps prop them off the floor a bit to get some airflow underneath them as well.
 

Northwood

Well-Known Member
I might have done an oopsie again haha. I ordered "chicken manure fertilizer" and it came not in pellet but a dust/compost texture. It says it is chicken manure "aerobically fermented" which I guess they are trying to said composted for 2 years. For fast fiz of phosphorus did I need a non composted version?
I think you're good. Is the NPK analysis shown on the bag/packaging?
 

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Total N %1
Total P2O5 %2
Water soluble K2O %2
it says.
Hmm... my hen manure pellets are 5-3-2. Perhaps the low nitrogen in your chicken stuff is due to volatilization caused by the method they compost it. I wouldn't use it if higher N is specifically needed, but a little can't hurt. The alfalfa should make up the nitrogen difference though without danger of overloading your phosphorus levels. One of the reasons I added the hen manure pellets in my initial wasn't only for the NPK anyway, but for the high levels of easily mineralized calcium contained in it. Hen food (laying mash) contains huge amounts of calcium carbonate, and the excess they don't need to make egg shells is pooped out in their manure.
 

lakesidegrower

Well-Known Member
hey all - great thread - picking up what I need to build my soil, wanting to add neem meal, but having hard time finding it - the closest I can get is a neem powered sold on Amazon.. advertised as 100% ground neem leaves - would this be comparable to neem meal??
 

Leeski

Well-Known Member
hey all - great thread - picking up what I need to build my soil, wanting to add neem meal, but having hard time finding it - the closest I can get is a neem powered sold on Amazon.. advertised as 100% ground neem leaves - would this be comparable to neem meal??
Where abouts are based? May be able to point you in the direction of neem meal ☮
 

Northwood

Well-Known Member
hey all - great thread - picking up what I need to build my soil, wanting to add neem meal, but having hard time finding it - the closest I can get is a neem powered sold on Amazon.. advertised as 100% ground neem leaves - would this be comparable to neem meal??
No, I don't think it would be comparable since they're two different things. Neem meal is what's left over after pressing the oil out of the seeds and doesn't contain leaves. The seeds are very high in proteins which explains its high level of mineralizable nitrogen. I have no idea what's in the leaves, but I'm sure its nitrogen content would be much lower than that in the seeds.
 

lakesidegrower

Well-Known Member
Where abouts are based? May be able to point you in the direction of neem meal ☮
Canada! North of Winnipeg to be exact - no grow shops around here so need to order everything online.
Going with Gaia products from my amendments, and building with even mix of peat, perlite and EWC with some lime, wanted to use pumice as aeration but can't get it here without spending a ton on shipping
Gonna try a mix of all purpose organic, kelp meal, rock dust and myke flower myco
Also was looking to add crab meal and neem meal but so far can't find em

Looking for any and all advice/suggestions with my build!
 

lakesidegrower

Well-Known Member
No, I don't think it would be comparable since they're two different things. Neem meal is what's left over after pressing the oil out of the seeds and doesn't contain leaves. The seeds are very high in proteins which explains its high level of mineralizable nitrogen. I have no idea what's in the leaves, but I'm sure its nitrogen content would be much lower than that in the seeds.
Ok that makes sense - I did see a neem seed power on amazon, but unfortunately sold out
 

Leeski

Well-Known Member
Canada! North of Winnipeg to be exact - no grow shops around here so need to order everything online.
Going with Gaia products from my amendments, and building with even mix of peat, perlite and EWC with some lime, wanted to use pumice as aeration but can't get it here without spending a ton on shipping
Gonna try a mix of all purpose organic, kelp meal, rock dust and myke flower myco
Also was looking to add crab meal and neem meal but so far can't find em

Looking for any and all advice/suggestions with my build!
Sorry mate company I use wouldn’t ship to you hope you find all that your after ☮
 

lakesidegrower

Well-Known Member
Another quick question - would fit be of any benefit at all to add a bag of FFOF to my soil mix? It has a few of the amendments id like to otherwise add, but is it worth it to add 1 bag of FFOF to about 25 gal of built soil?
 

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Canada! North of Winnipeg to be exact - no grow shops around here so need to order everything online.
Lucky you. Sounds like very close to rapeseed land. What's a 50 pound seed bag of meal costing there? Like $8? Forget the neem and get that instead. Nothing wrong with supporting local farmers and the economy. Just don't go canola crazy, because it often exceeds 6% nitrogen.

Forget "hydro shops" and cannabis specific products IMO, unless of course you're wealthy and in a donating kind of mood.
 

Imbald

Well-Known Member
Amazon (in US at least) carries it.

Down to Earth Neem Seed Meal. 6-1-2 5lb.
$27.44 (free shipping-prime member price)
They have other brands also.
 
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NightSpider

Active Member
I have already spread some chicken manure compost over the pots and watered it in. The yellow/ purpling of the leaves persist so even if this product turned out not ideal, I have to address the issue yet I am completely lost on what to do.
 

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Northwood

Well-Known Member
I have already spread some chicken manure compost over the pots and watered it in. The yellow/ purpling of the leaves persist so even if this product turned out not ideal, I have to address the issue yet I am completely lost on what to do.
How long ago did you add the chicken manure? Those bottom leaves that are yellow are unlikely to recover no matter what you do. Just remove them from the canopy as they die. It's a smallish pot too by the looks of it for fabric, so make sure you keep it evenly moist and watch for progression of the yellowing/chlorosis over the next week. Often that kind of chlorosis is caused by drainage issues or crazy pH too, so make sure you tick off all the boxes.
 
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