Ok canndo, straw VS coir vs casing

It depends on your sub base.

If you have coir/verm you get all the tiny valleys and bumps that are ideal for fruiting, so a casing layer doesn't add much benefit if your humidity is good. For pinning, there are other benefits, just addressing that. As the myc is growing, any "breakthroughs" to the top layer from below end, knot and leave the perfect spot for a pin to form on the coir/verm top layer.

On the other hand, if you are using just straw, the myc grows ACROSS the top, leaping and leaving large flat strands of myc that form a mat, and sucks for providing the fruiting microclimate. So casing makes a HUGE difference on straw for microclimate creation.

Ok, am I really going to have to do this again? casing supplies more than the physical support, it enables the ropey strands of mycelium to coagulate under the fruiting bodies - it protects your substrate, it retains another reservour of moisture, it is patchable where bare substrate is not, it is a protectio against trich as it can be scooped out and the spot treated (if the trich is surface contamination - if it is sandwiched between the substrate and the casing - forget it. So far as I have ever seen, you cannot reach the density of fruit in a first or second flush with a non-cased grow. If you are looking for some mushrooms without a lot of trouble, if you want to dispense with the extra trouble casing entails - no problem but, try growing some of the more exotic species without casing - and you will almost inevitably fail. This indicates that you are most likely growing your fruit in spite of your methods instead of because of them.


The jury is still out on coir - it seems to do the trick, it should not need any addition of vermiculite - vermiculite does as Testime says, it offers little physical places for the primorida to start and it provides moisture - moisture that straw does not need. In both, straw and coir, the nutrient value is somewhat lower than most other substrates and you will dilute even that nutrient value with the addition of vermiculite.


So in answer to your challenge - what, exactly do you want? If you want high yield with the work that involves - case straw (or manure, or compost). If you want something easier, that is more left to the whims of the organism and less under your control - put some vermiculite in coir and let it rip.


To me - the point is and always has been perfection - a perfect pin set is a thing of beauty, a dense canopy is breathtaking and the satisfaction of repeating that in a second and even third flush is gratifying. Others just want a buzz and there is nothing wrong with that - but why go through all the trouble to begin with and not do it right? Everything that applies to mushrooms applies as well to growing good pot. You can stick a seed in the ground and let it grow, you might get some scraggly buds and they will certainly provied you with some decent smoke - or you can shoot for the prize - and grow something you are proud to show pictures of on this forum. I have long ago abandoned such mushroom grows, I struggle to get ANY fruit from my current crop of etables and oysters don't like casing - why? because in nature they grow from logs, and logs aren't cased in nature.

Hey, no challenge. I said it provided other benefits, and was not addressing, I just want to try to understand the tradeoffs and I reported back an observation since I've just started growing with straw as opposed to anything else. Test tubs. Don't care if they produce nothing.

No complaints.

Relax.

Please.

testtime said:

Hey, no challenge. I said it provided other benefits, and was not addressing, I just want to try to understand the tradeoffs and I reported back an observation since I've just started growing with straw as opposed to anything else. Test tubs. Don't care if they produce nothing.

No complaints.

Relax.

Please.

Click to expand...

I am relaxed - I got into an argument in a pure mushroom growing site - it got heated because the other guy saw no benifit to casing - I posted pictures and he couldnt' match them but still insited that his yields were identical. I suppose they could be - as it is possilbe that you could expend all of the nutrient possible in the substrate - but it mght take 5 or 6 flushes. Stamets claims that 80 percent of your yield results from the first two - whatever that initial yield is. I contend that you endanger your growing area if you extend your grow beyond three flushes, as the ph of your substrate or your casing becomes more favorable to contamination - now you have great flat masses of trich bait and the more it gets infected the more your entire house or grow building becomes filled with sticky green spores.

There is debate as to total yield between straw and compost. I believe suplemented or amended straw at the maximum depth possible will give you the very best yeild - at the lowest over all cost - as compost- which has the highest nutritional value is much more expensive. Beyond that, it takes another set of skills to produce good compost - and of course plenty more time.

Of course there is a dilema as corn or rye actually has a higher nutrition value but it cannot retain the moisture necessary to continue to yield until completely expended. There are several ways to measure such efficiency but the best is to simply weigh the substrate before you bring it to field moisture level and then dry and weigh it after your third flush. I have done this but it was brought up that I included the weight of the casing as well as they are difficult to separate. so my yield might have been higher. Stamets gives us a bioefficiency ratio but I have never played with it.

canndo said:

The jury is still out on coir - it seems to do the trick, it should not need any addition of vermiculite - vermiculite does as Testime says, it offers little physical places for the primorida to start and it provides moisture - moisture that straw does not need. In both, straw and coir, the nutrient value is somewhat lower than most other substrates and you will dilute even that nutrient value with the addition of vermiculite.

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I don't think the jury is still out on coir. At least not in my opinion. It has produced time and time again. My best tub ever yielded roughly 10oz of dried cubensis from about 3lbs of dry popcorn and a MS liquid culture. That comes out to a little over 20% if it would be based on the grain alone. That seems a little too efficient for me. In all honestly I probably could have pulled another few oz's with a dunk. I'm not saying it is the best substrate you can use by any means, but I wouldn't call coco coir inferior either.

I totally understand where you are coming from when you talk about "perfection" though. I am, however, a realist. When I give someone an oz, they don't care how even my pinset was or how many flushes it took. I don't really go into the details with most people, but the ones I do are sort of relieved their is no manure involved and while I never did any laboratory testing, I am confident they are every bit as potent as ones grown on straw or manure. Even if the overall yield is smaller or the potency is slightly less, to me it is still worth it. Coir is much more contamination resistant and you don't have to deal with pillow cases of horse shit hanging from your shower curtain rod.

I'm actually considering using coir to try growing pans, using manure steep instead of water to hydrate the coir. Curious what you think about that, canndo. I've had this pan cambo "goliath" syringe for months now. Too many projects and too little time. Also have a psilocybe galindoi syringe for some sclerotia I want to get up and running and am dying to run some oyster mushrooms again. All this is time for the massive azur bed I want to get going in the spring.

When it comes to sclerotia production, how do you guys feel about using rye berries instead of the recommended rye grass seed? Don't know how easy it will be trying to track down grass seed in the middle of December and when I do, really don't want to have to buy 20lbs of the stuff either.

Rye berries for sclerotia work just fine, especialy with your gondoloi. I would be interested if you could have gotten the same yield with half the spawn. I am VERY interested in your using coir for pans and how much you get, having only used compost with them. I also would be quite interested in growing oyster in coir - but just for plain interest as coir is far more expensive for such a thing than needed. As far as potency is concerned, I believe I have found that unamended straw may be slightly less potent but I am not sure and suspect that there isn't much of a difference in potency regardless of the substrate.


And tracking down your rye grass seed is tough, especially if you don't want to buy large quantities. I recall my first pass at rye grass sclerotia formation in bags (don't do it - they like glass) - I spent a week finding the stuff and then, when the bags ALL failed, I had to dump 50 dry, who knows how many wet into my already stuffed compost bin. Rye grass seed is strange stuff.

And we agree - manure, though perfectly fine, is just too much stank. My wife is very tolerant of my hobbies, in fact I couldn't ask for a better one, not only is she extremely attractive and attentive she lets me experiment with any manner of gross things in her kitchen - as long as I don't ruin another le cruse pot by letting the corn run dry.

canndo said:

I am relaxed

Click to expand...

Good. Further reporting.

The wide shallow STRAW ONLY tub is flushing pretty well. GT. Obviously favoring side pins, but a repectable amount of center fill as well. Let's say 20%.

But since there is no competition, they all seem to be growing way better than their history would expect. So I assume the ones that do fruit this way, fruit BIG.

Also, I've been neglecting it. Bottom of the stack, ambient light only, no spraying, no fanning. And it is doing well. I like them that way.

I'm throwing the KS on straw out, not worth the wait anymore, and too many flies in it to care. KS is like that for me everywhere though, not blaming anything I've done THIS time. I'm done with playing with that strain.

Your gonna hate me on the light though for the GT. 100% light 12/12. No early pins until full fill. Clear tub. I like it that way. The ones in the dark bags contamned. No, they were not sealed. This is the one of the light test group that survived. No more bags for me. Next test is dark room with better environment control.

When I have a stack to test of a clone I will go side by side (well, dark room stack, light room stack), for now I'm ok with the way it is running.

Is there any point to case the current GT for the 2nd flush after hydrating in running tub, or is it a loser?

Of course, this is a TEST only, and I will case straw in the future no matter what the strain.

The next will be PE on straw, then cased, assume 4 tubs light 4 tubs dark. PE grows far faster than the others so contam rate seems to be much lower for me and should no longer be part of the puzzle.

I assume the casing should be pasteurized (I gotta build me a bucket, I HATE pasteurizing) peat/verm/oystershell/lime at 45/45/10/ehh, I'll look it up.

Unless you recommend otherwise.

Thanks.

We are going to want some pictures - and, perhaps some weight figures if you are implying that 20 percent coverage might result in the same weight as 80 percent or higher.

Yes, you are going to have to pasteurize your casing - but, check your ph - I am not sure you need 5 percent lime. your oyster won't change the value so much as leach (and not much at that) into the soil, keeping your ph stable longer.

canndo said:

We are going to want some pictures - and, perhaps some weight figures if you are implying that 20 percent coverage might result in the same weight as 80 percent or higher.

Yes, you are going to have to pasteurize your casing - but, check your ph - I am not sure you need 5 percent lime. your oyster won't change the value so much as leach (and not much at that) into the soil, keeping your ph stable longer.

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#1: Never happen. This is all fictional. No pictures.

#2: Not claiming 20% of pin coverage == 80% of possible production. Merely saying there are some seriously well anchored side clusters that walked along the top then fruited up combined with about a 20% internal pin coverage that have grown quite well and I am very happy with the general results. I would get 2-5 times more with a better pin set if cased. I do know that in the past, when I have smaller pins sets the average fruit size is larger, which makes sense since the myc is focusing its effort and resources on less fruits. So not bothered either way.

I'll report dry in a week.

Lime is "to PH", not a percent, so I'll figure it out ok.

testtime said:

#1: Never happen. This is all fictional. No pictures.

#2: Not claiming 20% of pin coverage == 80% of possible production. Merely saying there are some seriously well anchored side clusters that walked along the top then fruited up combined with about a 20% internal pin coverage that have grown quite well and I am very happy with the general results. I would get 2-5 times more with a better pin set if cased. I do know that in the past, when I have smaller pins sets the average fruit size is larger, which makes sense since the myc is focusing its effort and resources on less fruits. So not bothered either way.

I'll report dry in a week.

Lime is "to PH", not a percent, so I'll figure it out ok.

Click to expand...

Well, I understand about the pics. So far as the pinning - if it is pinning around the edges on a caseless substrate - that may well indicate that there are conditions around the edges that promote pinning that are not present in the center of your mass.

Canndo, check that PM limit again. We should petition to quadruple this man's PM box limit.

canndo said:

Well, I understand about the pics. So far as the pinning - if it is pinning around the edges on a caseless substrate - that may well indicate that there are conditions around the edges that promote pinning that are not present in the center of your mass.

Click to expand...

I realize you have a lot to keep track of. This is the straw only no casing clear bin with no bag or tape on the side light exposed 12/12 forever.

This means the sides have prime pinning conditions, and the top poor due to it not being cased and myc tendency to jump across straw. My issue, was simply testing uncased.