Plant Moisture Stress - Symptoms and Solutions

DaveCoulier

DaveCoulier

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
Dave, this one's yours. :p
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Im not even sure what I am looking at in that picture! How can I help :). Ill see what I can do though.

Thanks for the props on the previous post.I edited it to be more clear about what I meant when turning it sideways. I meant turn the pot diagonal, not lay it on its side. Sorry everyone.

bobek said:
Hi all

Thanks very much Uncle of us all. You are probably very right saying We get not exactly what they tell you do. We'll see what the end produc tdiffernce is :).I dont think there are insects in my tent - couldn't find any. Yesterday evening about 4 hours before end of 20 hours bright period I noticed that the tallest plant got his leaves' (those around flowers) "fingers" dropped down. In the morning after dark perion they where up again. But I noticed curly fingers of one of the top leavs (picture) . Would you say it's to close to my 250 HPS or may be nutrient overdose relaited?I gave that plant 1.2litre of watter with 0.8ml of Bio-Grow, 1.5ml Bio-Bloom and 0.5ml TopMax two days ago. I'm not sure If I underwater them or not. They are in about 3 gallons pots. Any info for NOOB from GOD really apreciated.
View attachment 1196497
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Bob, any chance you can get an overhead shot of the affected leaf?

It wouldn't appear your HPS is too close. The rest of your plant in the pic looks pretty good. I would suggest you get a light meter though. Its a great tool. It will help you better rearrange your plants in your grow tent.

With regards to nutrient related, I have used Bio-Grow & Bio-Bloom and feel they are mild, and designed to be used with their nutrient rich soil. Your plant is showing a slight touch of yellowing at the tips, which is a precursor to leaf scorching caused by excessive nutrients in the rootzone. Do lower leaves look the same or do they have any scorching at the tips? If lower leaves are scorched, then back off on the nutrients. Its hard to tell you what dosage to use without knowing what type of soil you use. Some are nutrient poor, and designed to be used with heavier doses of fertilizers, while some are the exact opposite.

I would suggest you use more water though. 1.2l is about 33oz, and I use that much for decent sized plants in one gallon grow bags every two days. I do use a coarser soil thats geared towards drainage/increased air porosity and less water retention, so my water needs are different than yours. If you use a heavy peat or compost based soil it will retain more water, and more care needs to be taken care when watering. Ideally I would like to fully saturate the rootball so all roots come into contact with water, but that could cause problems in soils that retain too much water. If you've read my post on the last page, then you'll already know what to do after watering to reduce your perched water table.
 
B

bobek

Member
Hi guys

I have All-mix BioBizz soil in my pots. @ Dave - I can't see big difference in colour of top and bottom leaves and there is no scorching as well. I threw picture there (overhead) but those 2 scorched-tip fingers of top leaf are better noticable on the picture from previous post. I started to mix 0.3ml of Bio-Grow in 0.5l of watter through week 2 and inreased dose (both nutes and watter) up to 0.8 ml of BioGrow + 1.5 BioBloom + 0.5ml TopMax in 1.2l of watter two days ago (week 4). I'll mix slightly bigger dose of nutes in 2.5l of watter tomorrow. Hope thats good idea and won't hurt my girl. There are another pictures just to compare plants (there are no leaves leaning down on 2 smaller plants).
2.jpg3.jpg4.jpg5.jpg
 
DaveCoulier

DaveCoulier

Well-Known Member
Judging from that first picture, I wouldn't say you have leaf scorching. They are malformed, but I dont see anything in those pictures that would make me worry. The plants look pretty good. Im also not seeing what I thought were yellow tips in any of those pictures, so I must have been seeing things that were not there, but do keep an eye out for yellow tips, or leaf scorching in the future when increasing nutrient dosages.

Im not sure if your camera has a white balance setting, but if it does use it for future pictures. Its really hard to get a good idea of how plants look when under HPS for anyone not there with you.

I looked up All-mix, and it contains alot of peat, and some worm poop, so 2.5l of water may be too much. Do you get any run-off with 1.2L? Observe your plants closely after watering and they will tell you if they like what you are doing. If lower leaves are yellowing, falling off, or becoming completely scorched they're under moisture/water stress. If the lower leaves are green, healthy, and rigid you're doing a good job when it comes to watering and feeding.
 
B

bobek

Member
Hello

Again thanks very much for quick reply. I have never seen watter coming out under my pots. Bearing in mind what you said about All-Mix I gave her 1,5l of watter with more-less the same amount of nutes. I'll post again if I see anything suspicious. God bless helpfull people.

Peace
 
D

DocBud

Member
DaveCoulier said:
If lower leaves are yellowing, falling off, or becoming completely scorched they're under moisture/water stress. If the lower leaves are green, healthy, and rigid you're doing a good job when it comes to watering and feeding.
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Wow. I just learned something. Overwatering can cause the lower leaves to yellow and fall off? I did not know that. Is this from nitrogen leeching?
 
Life Goes On

Life Goes On

Active Member
Hello Unc,

Hey I don't know if you remember or not but I was asking you about possible water or light stress to my plants. Well I've been researching and the more I do the more pictures I run across of leaves that look just like mine that are turning a greyish blackish blueish color and dying off. These sites claim that the plants are running into a Phosphorus and Magnesium deficiency? Do you think this could be the most likely case for me? As I really don't think I am having a light or water stress issue becuase I have raised my lamp and increased water yet the issue persists. If you think that I might have ran into a Phosphorus and Magnesium deficiency what would you do to correct the issue if you were a organic grower? I mean I'll do watever I have to, to correct the issue but I would like to stay as organic as possible. If there is no organic solution or an easier/quicker non-organic fix please let me know what it is. Thanks in advance.
 
C

carson687

Member
First time grower...72 plants under 6 1000w air cooled lights in 5 gallon buckets with holes. 78 degrees, using a/c, 50% humidity, good air movement, intake 6" fan, outtake 8" fan. room size 16' x 18'. 12/12 lighting. I water everyother day. 3rd week into flowering, plants are around 3' tall. Was having some bug issues (mites), not real bad. Sprayed them with organicide 2 times. Once about 8 days ago and than 5 days ago. Nutes givin is fox farm tiger bloom. 1.5 teaspoons everyother feeding. Than it happend, went to my room and found one of my plants with leaves that u see. The plant is covered with leaves like this about 80% of them. Also alot of other plants have same symtoms but only 2-5% of the leaves. Do u think it is from the bug spray or from over watering. After reading this thread I may have been over watering. I water when the top couple inches is dry but the still have some weight like there is alot of water at the bottom. Sorry so long trying to give good info. Please please please help me......Thanks:wall:
 
C

carson687

Member
help.jpgFirst time grower...72 plants under 6 1000w air cooled lights in 5 gallon buckets with holes. 78 degrees, using a/c, 50% humidity, good air movement, intake 6" fan, outtake 8" fan. room size 16' x 18'. 12/12 lighting. I water everyother day. 3rd week into flowering, plants are around 3' tall. Was having some bug issues (mites), not real bad. Sprayed them with organicide 2 times. Once about 8 days ago and than 5 days ago. Nutes givin is fox farm tiger bloom. 1.5 teaspoons everyother feeding. Than it happend, went to my room and found one of my plants with leaves that u see. The plant is covered with leaves like this about 80% of them. Also alot of other plants have same symtoms but only 2-5% of the leaves. Do u think it is from the bug spray or from over watering. After reading this thread I may have been over watering. I water when the top couple inches is dry but the still have some weight like there is alot of water at the bottom. Sorry so long trying to give good info. Please please please help me......Thanks:wall:
 
DaveCoulier

DaveCoulier

Well-Known Member
DocBud said:
Wow. I just learned something. Overwatering can cause the lower leaves to yellow and fall off? I did not know that. Is this from nitrogen leeching?
Click to expand...
If you over-water you run the risk of killing your roots due to lack of oxygen. If those roots die, then uptake of water is severely impacted, and along with it nutrient uptake. So now the plant is under water stress and nutrient stress. The most common deficiency is an N deficiency, so you will generally notice this whenever water and nutrient uptake is inhibited.

Over-watering and under-watering may sound like different things, but they both will lead to water stress, and the symptoms of water stress will be the same regardless of how you got there.
 
D

DocBud

Member
DaveCoulier said:
If you over-water you run the risk of killing your roots due to lack of oxygen. If those roots die, then uptake of water is severely impacted, and along with it nutrient uptake. So now the plant is under water stress and nutrient stress. The most common deficiency is an N deficiency, so you will generally notice this whenever water and nutrient uptake is inhibited.

Over-watering and under-watering may sound like different things, but they both will lead to water stress, and the symptoms of water stress will be the same regardless of how you got there.
Click to expand...
On my current grow cycle, I used much less perlite in my soil mix than I usually do. I usually use about 30% perlite....this time i used the soil right out of the bag, because it already had perlite in it, and people I trust told me not to add more.

So, I water when the pots are light.....but I've got 3 plants (out of 42) with yellowing leaves....WTF?

Conclusion; I'm over watering. The extra perlite protected me in the past.
 
drmarcusg

drmarcusg

Active Member
wow ive read this thread front too back...first time grower and i did the stupidest thing..i had a small case of fungus knats due to overwatering...i bought neem, mosquito dunks, gonats, put sand on them ect..while totally focused on the fungus gnats i lost focus of the grow and was just hell bent on killing the gnats...now from reading this forum i realize my overwatering was the reason my plants were dying (not the gnats)the tips were curling and turning brown/black... i basiclly killed 4 seedlings (im riding them out but im considering them dead or on their way) and really hurt my 2 baby's that have been going strong for 3 weeks..i just germed some cali hash plant and theres no way im gonna make the same mistake again!as a new grower ive been reading and reading most people are just full of shit... BIG UPS UNCLE BEN!
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
I thought I would post up here in addition to the basic plant problems forum as this thread seems to have the uber experienced ganja surgeons in it. Uncle Ben, I really took your initial advice to heart "grow them like tomatoes" but I have been having issues despite trying to just let the plants be.

Here is my situation, and I apologize for the long post, just trying to give you all the info....

Ebb/flow table under dual 400's. co2 (but haven't really been using it yet). Temps always between 74/87. Rez temp 69-71. Tap water through 5 micron and carbon filter. Base PPM around 50. Base PH around 6.8. 8 minute flood. 120 min between floods.

I put clones in the table about 10 days ago. They had roots but not allot of them. Issues outside my control dictated that I had to take the clones. So I put them in the table. I ran for about 4 days no nutes and then added about 75 PPM of cal/mag and botanicare grow. The lights were about 4 feet from the table. The plants looked ok but several leaves were starting to curl under but no burnt leaves. The plants started to look a little yellow. I was managing the ph but it was rising allot overnight (up to 7) this was a result of the hydroton....

So I had some issues with my hydroton not being properly soaked before going in the table and it was raising my PH..BIG TIME. Lots of research done and finally scooped as much hydroton as I could out of the table and soaked it in strong acid 3.8, watched it soar up to 6.3-6.5 and then adding more acid. After around 24 hours and nearly 1/2 cup of PH down it stabliazed around 5.5. I put it back in the table. however, since my plants are in 6" net pots filled with hydroton (now with roots) I could not treat that hydroton. I initiated a 20 minute flood while keeping ph down in the low 5's to attempt to treat the net pot hydroton. (the plants didn't look waterlogged as only the net pots had hydroton in them and not the table so they dried rather quickly.

This was plain water with about 75 ppm of superthrive. (tablesppon for 20 gallons).

After putting all the hydroton in two days ago, the PH still climbs overnight but stays between 5.7-6.2. The roots are coming out of the net pots and are all white so that is a good sign. When I put the hydroton back in the table I added 100 PPM of cal mag, 100 of liquid karma and 100 of grow. This combined with PH down and a dash of superthrive equal present ppm of 415. So they have been on this for two days. I also lowered the lights to 18 inches and the are getting between 55-68K lumens.

Sooooo... they plants still looked fuckered up.

Almost all the plants are yellow in color, they are not the typical green that I am used to. One of the plants has strong purple coloring along the leaf margins (Jack herrer), one of the blue widows is also developing this. T he mango kush plants are VERY short and tight and have developed yellowish leaves with green veins, Almost al the plants have down turned leaves, a few have tiny nute burns on the tips.

View attachment 1216318View attachment 1216319View attachment 1216320View attachment 1216321View attachment 1216323View attachment 1216324View attachment 1216325




So they look like they have micro defficiences as well as nitrogen deficiency but with 400 PPM I am getting signs of nute burn.... The PH of the water has statyed between 5.8 and 6.1?

So What the fuck???? Should I foliar? Is the hydroton in the pots fucking with the ph at the roots, inhibiting uptake? Should I soak the pots and plants in low PH to try and fight this? Should I stick a gun in my mouth, wiping the tears away from a frustrating grow and end it all ?

So in summary this is the situation:

Day 1. Clones with small roots, given weak nutes 150PPM total cal/mag/ grow, 500 PPM co2, lights at 4 feet.
Day 5. heavily curling leaves, signs of deficiencies. raised PPM by another 150.
Day 7. Realized soaring PH not normal..but keeping it under control. houston, we have issues. changed rez water added superthrive and nothing else.
day 8. Removed as much hydroton as possible. soaked the shit out of it to get it neutral. long duration soaks of table with 5.4 water/superthrive to treat net pot hydroton. Plants look ok, not curling under as much. starting to develop strong yellowing/green veins and purple leaves.
Day 9. Put humpty dumpty back together again. Added 120 cal/mag. 100 grow, and 120 liquid karma. PPM at 415. Lowered lights to 18" Co2 now at 1000 ppm

Day 11. PLants loook like hell. PH still rising but very slowly. Completely bummed.


What do you guys thinK?
 
D

DocBud

Member
legallyflying said:
I thought I would post up here in addition to the basic plant problems forum as this thread seems to have the uber experienced ganja surgeons in it. Uncle Ben, I really took your initial advice to heart "grow them like tomatoes" but I have been having issues despite trying to just let the plants be.

Here is my situation, and I apologize for the long post, just trying to give you all the info....

Ebb/flow table under dual 400's. co2 (but haven't really been using it yet). Temps always between 74/87. Rez temp 69-71. Tap water through 5 micron and carbon filter. Base PPM around 50. Base PH around 6.8. 8 minute flood. 120 min between floods.

I put clones in the table about 10 days ago. They had roots but not allot of them. Issues outside my control dictated that I had to take the clones. So I put them in the table. I ran for about 4 days no nutes and then added about 75 PPM of cal/mag and botanicare grow. The lights were about 4 feet from the table. The plants looked ok but several leaves were starting to curl under but no burnt leaves. The plants started to look a little yellow. I was managing the ph but it was rising allot overnight (up to 7) this was a result of the hydroton....

So I had some issues with my hydroton not being properly soaked before going in the table and it was raising my PH..BIG TIME. Lots of research done and finally scooped as much hydroton as I could out of the table and soaked it in strong acid 3.8, watched it soar up to 6.3-6.5 and then adding more acid. After around 24 hours and nearly 1/2 cup of PH down it stabliazed around 5.5. I put it back in the table. however, since my plants are in 6" net pots filled with hydroton (now with roots) I could not treat that hydroton. I initiated a 20 minute flood while keeping ph down in the low 5's to attempt to treat the net pot hydroton. (the plants didn't look waterlogged as only the net pots had hydroton in them and not the table so they dried rather quickly.

This was plain water with about 75 ppm of superthrive. (tablesppon for 20 gallons).

After putting all the hydroton in two days ago, the PH still climbs overnight but stays between 5.7-6.2. The roots are coming out of the net pots and are all white so that is a good sign. When I put the hydroton back in the table I added 100 PPM of cal mag, 100 of liquid karma and 100 of grow. This combined with PH down and a dash of superthrive equal present ppm of 415. So they have been on this for two days. I also lowered the lights to 18 inches and the are getting between 55-68K lumens.

Sooooo... they plants still looked fuckered up.

Almost all the plants are yellow in color, they are not the typical green that I am used to. One of the plants has strong purple coloring along the leaf margins (Jack herrer), one of the blue widows is also developing this. T he mango kush plants are VERY short and tight and have developed yellowish leaves with green veins, Almost al the plants have down turned leaves, a few have tiny nute burns on the tips.

View attachment 1216318View attachment 1216319View attachment 1216320View attachment 1216321View attachment 1216323View attachment 1216324View attachment 1216325




So they look like they have micro defficiences as well as nitrogen deficiency but with 400 PPM I am getting signs of nute burn.... The PH of the water has statyed between 5.8 and 6.1?

So What the fuck???? Should I foliar? Is the hydroton in the pots fucking with the ph at the roots, inhibiting uptake? Should I soak the pots and plants in low PH to try and fight this? Should I stick a gun in my mouth, wiping the tears away from a frustrating grow and end it all ?

So in summary this is the situation:

Day 1. Clones with small roots, given weak nutes 150PPM total cal/mag/ grow, 500 PPM co2, lights at 4 feet.
Day 5. heavily curling leaves, signs of deficiencies. raised PPM by another 150.
Day 7. Realized soaring PH not normal..but keeping it under control. houston, we have issues. changed rez water added superthrive and nothing else.
day 8. Removed as much hydroton as possible. soaked the shit out of it to get it neutral. long duration soaks of table with 5.4 water/superthrive to treat net pot hydroton. Plants look ok, not curling under as much. starting to develop strong yellowing/green veins and purple leaves.
Day 9. Put humpty dumpty back together again. Added 120 cal/mag. 100 grow, and 120 liquid karma. PPM at 415. Lowered lights to 18" Co2 now at 1000 ppm

Day 11. PLants loook like hell. PH still rising but very slowly. Completely bummed.


What do you guys thinK?
Click to expand...
I've never had tomatoes grown via flood table. Mine always grow in the backyard....in dirt.

Why not scrap all that and grow in some nice soil, with some nice, sensible nutrients that cost like 10 bucks a year?
 
D

DocBud

Member
legallyflying said:
Thanks for the help Doc Bud. Really going out on a limb to help a fellow grower. Plus rep for sure
Click to expand...
You might not think I am being helpful...but I am.

Fact: soil weed tastes better
fact: soil is a more forgiving medium
fact: soil is less expensive, especially if you use high quality non-cannabis nutrients

In other words:

Good soil, water, a couple simple nutrients.....and you're good to go.

Contrast that with your hydro set up.

If you must use hydro....grow in perlite, use Ocmocote Plus for nutrients, pH your tap water to 6....stand back and watch what happens.
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
Well if you put it that way. I grew in soil for years, outdoors mostly. Yeah it is more forgiving, and it's easier to produce good tasting buds. But in terms of expense I think your off the mark. The other issue is that soil indoors is a messy, back breaking pain in the ass. I switched to hydro to try something different, challange myself and increase my knowledge of plant physiology. It's fairly apparant you possess little knowledge to offer me assistance and that's fine. But I think you could understand how someone in my shoes would find your response " just do it my way" a tad off putting.

NBD
 
D

DocBud

Member
legallyflying said:
Well if you put it that way. I grew in soil for years, outdoors mostly. Yeah it is more forgiving, and it's easier to produce good tasting buds. But in terms of expense I think your off the mark. The other issue is that soil indoors is a messy, back breaking pain in the ass. I switched to hydro to try something different, challange myself and increase my knowledge of plant physiology. It's fairly apparant you possess little knowledge to offer me assistance and that's fine. But I think you could understand how someone in my shoes would find your response " just do it my way" a tad off putting.

NBD
Click to expand...
I might have more knowledge than you realize...it's hard to tell from just a single post.
However, I do apologize for being a little snotty with my response.

I've done hydro....and did it very well. It was a pain in the ass and was very expensive. If you have the right set up, have a big tank of RO, and a very convenient way to drain reservoirs and refill them, hydro isn't so bad. So assuming you have the perfect grow room, with water, air, lights, dialed in environment and floor drains right next to a valve on the res-tank.....

Assuming all that, look at the cost of hydro and compare it to dirt.

Hydro nutes are expensive
Washing hydroton is a pain
Hydroton isn't cheap either, and re-using it is labor intensive.
You've got to have backup pumps....you will have a failure sooner or later.
You will make a mistake that causes your plants to go all crazy....or perhaps your plants go all crazy and you have no idea why?

These are all challenges with hydro. If done right, the yield in hydro is better than soil, mainly because the plants grow a bit faster.
However, taste and quality is where it's at for me....and soil wins that battle.

I won't bother pricing out the cost of a hydro run. You know that better than me. But here's the cost of a soil run:

1.)2 bags FFOF @ 12 bucks each
2.)1 bag FF Light Warrior 12 bucks
3.)12 9x9 plastic pots, 2.95 eachx12=35.40
4.)One bottle of Osmocote Plus or Dynamite 4-20 bucks, depending on sales
5.)Tap water....cost is miniscule
6.)Bloom enhancer of your choice. 45 bucks (optional)

So, for a first time soil run you're looking at 146 bucks including tax.
Since you can reuse the pots for a long time, and the Osmocote will last about 2 years with a grow that size, subsequent runs are less than 100 bucks.

And....don't forget, soil weed tastes better.

You could do even better than what I listed, but I can get all that stuff I mentioned in about 1/2 hour without visiting an overpriced hydro shop. Miners hardware and Home Depot has everything you need and more to grow the finest cannabis possible.....or like you said, tomatoes.

Have you ever gone to a fine restaurant that boasted it's salad was hydroponically grown?

Around here, in wine country, they always advertise "organic baby greens," etc. This means dirt, poop, and other stuff like that. The taste is divine! But, in all fairness, I've never had the opportunity to compare organic produce to hydroponic produce.

I suspect there is a reason for that.....and I'm pretty sure I know what that reason is.

Commercial growers depend on several things:

1.)a market for the crop
2.)a good yield at minimal expense
3.)the ability to control/mitigate environmental challenges to insure 1 and 2.

Hydro makes that much tougher.
 
i81two

i81two

Well-Known Member
1.)2 bags FFOF @ 12 bucks each
2.)1 bag FF Light Warrior 12 bucks
3.)12 9x9 plastic pots, 2.95 eachx12=35.40
4.)One bottle of Osmocote Plus or Dynamite 4-20 bucks, depending on sales
5.)Tap water....cost is miniscule
6.)Bloom enhancer of your choice. 45 bucks (optional)

This will grow like 6 plants approx. I can grow 50 plants for that cost after initial setup costs.

I think i finally figured out what the taste of organic pot is. It is dirt, vermiculite, bat and worm shit. Your fans blow that crap around the room and it gets all over the buds. In hydro it is like an operating room. By the way bat guano in very little doses will fuck your shit up. I have actually come to the conclusion that i wont smoke weed that is organic in fear of my health.

I know this post will ruffle some feathers but oh well.

Here is an interesting article everyone should read.
http://www.modernsage.com/Expert/ArticleDetails.aspx?Article_Id=464
 
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