Should the US shed blood for Ukraine

Should the USA along with NATO defend Ukraine with troops.

  • Yes

    Votes: 40 40.4%

  • No

    Votes: 59 59.6%
  • Total voters
    99
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
You really need to get a grip on your Russia Russia Russia phobia.

Were you forced to eat borscht as a kid or something ? :D
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You might be ok with them attacking us, since you push Putin and the far right dictator's propaganda like your rent depends on it, but I am not.

The negging bullshit tactic that you trolls like to use to deflect from the fact that the trolling is endless and you would rather everyone forget about it as Putin stacks up over a hundred thousands troops along Ukraine's borders while the Republicans try to help in the destruction of our democracy isn't working.
 
Herb & Suds

Herb & Suds

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
You might be ok with them attacking us, since you push Putin and the far right dictator's propaganda like your rent depends on it, but I am not.

The negging bullshit tactic that you trolls like to use to deflect from the fact that the trolling is endless and you would rather everyone forget about it as Putin stacks up over a hundred thousands troops along Ukraine's borders while the Republicans try to help in the destruction of our democracy isn't working.
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No clue what the pedo said but appreciate your reply :clap:
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
K81.UK said:
I never said it was the US’s fault?

You are the exact reason why your county if fucked.

Full of opinion, hot air, shit and dumb as fuck.

Romania is extremely close to the Russian border for a missile system, like cuba is close to the us. You didn’t like Russian missiles in cuba.

Cuba can make whatever allegiance they want. Fuckin idiot.

The EU is becoming a unelected superstate like the ussr was. Hoovering up former ussr countries is a recipe for war.

Idiots like you scream about democracy when your last 2 presidents are the best advert against it.

You voted bush in twice too. The man is like a trained chimp.

Do you have any idea how many Ukrainians love Putin?

You are a typical arrogant, uniformed yank who probably doesn’t have a passport.
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I don't really give a shit if you don't understand the meaning of your words.

To empathize with Russia because "missiles at their border" means what to you, exactly? Lol at your reference to a crisis between two states that don't even exist any more.

To me your "missiles at Russia's border" statement was a diversion and distraction away from the abuse Putin is heaping on its neighbor in retaliation for the Orange Revolution, when the people made the government of Ukraine eject it's Russian puppet and install a Ukrainian-controlled government. Nothing Putin is doing in Ukraine right now has anything to do with some missiles in Romania. Not "at the border", That is an appeal to emotion. Maybe it works in Borschtland. Not here.

But what do you mean by the "missiles at the border". What I see is "pity Russia, the US is such a bully, Ukraine is at fault for the beating Putin is inflicting"

What you said? What I see in your post is a fact free, logic-free string of ad-hominins, half truths and appeals to emotion.

I didn't vote for Bush. I didn't vote for Trump. I've been showing up to protests and actively working with other Democrats to change this country's zeitgeist of white power and creeping fascism into one that is more like the people living here now. What Trump and the GOP want is a state 60 or more years go. For the first time ever, I'm optimistic about the possibility of living in a multicultural democracy. So fuck off with that kind of bullshit about "you voted for Bush".

Biden is my president. After four years of opposing Trump and watching him slobber all over Putin's shoes, i'm relieved to see Biden putting Putin on the back foot with our NATO allies. He was not my first choice for president but he is probably a better leader for this divided nation than Elizabeth Warren was. Warren was my #1 choice in the 2020 primary.

My work has taken me around the globe to many strange countries of the world. Japan, Korea, Singapore, Mexico, Spain, and Florida, for a few examples. Regarding Russia, I worked on a project that started out as a partnership with one of their departments to shift a product line into an un-used industrial site. I was training up for extended stays in the country and even started taking lessons in Russian. Then, the Russian government backed away and stole all the shit we sent there. That's my personal experience with that Kleptocracy. What a relief that I didn't have to go to that shithole.

About 30% of Ukraine, mostly along it's eastern border with Russia want to live under his thumb. So what if they do? We even have some US citizens who slobber at the idea too. In that regard, I can see why your kind are so angry. Majority rule is a hard thing for authoritarians to accept.
 
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Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
CCGNZ said:
#1 If you were to tell me 10 yrs. ago that Russia and Ukraine were to engage in the level of bloodshed that is inherently possible now I'd have responded that it was a reach of epic proportions, These 2 peoples are closely interwined thru their Slavic heritage and history. #2 The West needs to sit down Putin and present him the offer of Western investment in his economy to diversify away from just weaponry and petroleum, end result improving the lives of everyday Russians and getting Russia in the West's corner away from China #3 I really hope he de-escalates,any full blown clash here will result in tremendous risks of accidental incidents between Russian air defense covering the ground forces and NATO air patrols bordering the conflict,any shootdowns will put extraordinary pressure to respond or save face for Putin or NATO
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Read my post above. Russia isn't a democracy, nor is it a place where one can trust in their legal system to enforce contracts. So, no. I've seen how investing in that country can go. It's like trying to invest in the Mafia.

I'm convinced that Putin's Russia is just saber rattling and testing the NATO alliance. Its not going well for Putin.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
K81.UK said:
I never said it was the US’s fault?

You are the exact reason why your county if fucked.

Full of opinion, hot air, shit and dumb as fuck.

Romania is extremely close to the Russian border for a missile system, like cuba is close to the us. You didn’t like Russian missiles in cuba.
no, we didn't, but we stopped them without invading cuba, or even threatening to invade Cuba
Cuba can make whatever allegiance they want. Fuckin idiot.
sure they can, and we can embargo the everliving shit out of them...russians can't embargo Ukraine

The EU is becoming a unelected superstate like the ussr was. Hoovering up former ussr countries is a recipe for war.
they're free to do as they wish, if they want to join nato and enjoy the freedoms of democracy, who the fuck is russia to threaten them for wanting that? oh yeah, they're the fucking expantionist who want the empire they LOST back...kind of makes them like trump, wanting something he lost

Idiots like you scream about democracy when your last 2 presidents are the best advert against it.
can't argue with you about trump, but Obama was a pretty decent guy. he was the president of the United States, so he tried to protect it's interests, while working against self proclaimed enemies...oh, what a fucking bastard...

You voted bush in twice too. The man is like a trained chimp.
at least we had the freedom to vote....

Do you have any idea how many Ukrainians love Putin?
i'm guessing about a tenth of what you think, since you seem to have your head up pootins ass...and seem to believe the flatulence coming out of it...

You are a typical arrogant, uniformed yank who probably doesn’t have a passport.
and you are a typical arrogant European, condemning America automatically, without knowing a fucking thing about America or it's goals, outside of what the communist propaganda tells you
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Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
CCGNZ said:
No shit, we'll be rubbing sticks together for fire and using clubs and spears and the like while walking around as radioactive,diseased mutants
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well, no, i was refering to russia, and unfortunately, it's closest physical neighbors...they won't be running around with a fucking thing, they'll be dust blowing in the wind
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Kassiopeija said:
It's because here in Germany we have put "fracking" gas mining down by law (as it is potentially dangerous) and we also have several policies installed to get away from atomics & coal. But there are not many alternatives, windcraft is killing endangered species, and solar is somehow problematic because the sheer generation of the hardware has also not been much carbon-neutral - although this has become better now in recent times.

And the Russian gas is very economic to buy and much cleaner than the US gas, which even has to be shipped over a large distance. We even had to invest largely into a sub-sea pipeline to actually enable gas transfer because these Ukrainians were not keeping their end of the contract and downright stealing our gas en route so the Russian cut it short.

But trading with Russia will much better serve to ensure peace & keep them moderate because it benefits both parties and aggression may potentially endanger that. And Russia is big enough to be self-sustaining and then when half of the world dont even uphold these sanctions it's pointless to begin with it will only push them more eastern.

Many people here are critically questioning the seriosity of US global policies when they promote their interests so aggressively.
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Windcraft is killing endangered species? CO2 output is killing the planet and every species on it. The wind turbines are far less damaging to nature than fossil fuels. That's climate change denier talk. I'm always impressed by the huge amount of solar panels when I drive into Germany. No idea how that is in larger cities, I usually stay within 50miles of the border. But surely you guys could schaffen das without gas. Throw some german engineering at it.

Germany knows the gas is short-term solution and that's why it's criticized. That short-term 'solution' will last for at least 30 years.

"And the Russian gas is very economic to buy" and that's what it's all about. Not Ukraine being unreliable, not endangered species, not danger of fracking. It's all about the money.

Looks like we'll be building 2 new nuclear power plants by the way.

That last line is exactly what Putin wants.

"But trading with Russia will much better serve to ensure peace & keep them moderate because it benefits both parties and aggression may potentially endanger that. And Russia is big enough to be self-sustaining and then when half of the world dont even uphold these sanctions it's pointless to begin with it will only push them more eastern."
Entirely agree with this part though, but then those are facts.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
K81.UK said:
Enough said. Idiot.

I fully understand everything I wrote.

The USA has done more to damage multicultural societies across the world than anything else.
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Ok, so you haven't got anything real to say.

Where you from? Just interested in where my trolls are and how they are doing. I'm glad to know that I'm helping you raise your family and feed your granny.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Biden is my president.
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K81.UK said:
Enough said. Idiot.

I fully understand everything I wrote.

The USA has done more to damage multicultural societies across the world than anything else.


have any statistics to back that up? if not, that's just your feelings in the matter, and your feelings are not a valid metric of the situation...
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
K81.UK said:
Enough said. Idiot.

I fully understand everything I wrote.

The USA has done more to damage multicultural societies across the world than anything else.


have any statistics to back that up? if not, that's just your feelings in the matter, and your feelings are not a valid metric of the situation...
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I always give the poster a chance. I gave him my personal information as background. I went into detail using widely known and easily validated information.

I said who I voted for because he said "you voted for Bush", which is false. His reply just referred to my statement that "I voted for Biden" and he made it out to be some condemnation. To a him, it probably is condemnation. He's just a troll.
 
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Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I always give the poster a chance. I gave him my personal information as background. I went into detail using widely known and easily validated information.

His reply just referred to "I voted for Biden" and made it out to be some condemnation. Which, to a him, probably is condemnation. He's just a troll.
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that's all it's been for quite a while. at first there were some people who would actually debate, try to prove their point without falling back on troll tactics, but they all seem to disappear pretty quickly, i guess they realize that the arguments they're trying to make are retarded, and they quit trying to make them...all the trumptard magats lately have still been playing the retarded card, with reason :dunce:
 
HGCC

HGCC

Well-Known Member
It just makes everything stupid and boring.

Many of us live in cities, or at least visit sometimes. You don't talk to the crazy dude that walks up to you and starts babbling weird crap at the subway/bus station. Why do it here? They aren't bringing anything to the conversation and it takes you down to their level.

And that sucks.

Kind of related, but as it's own tangent, these motherfuckers are ruining both real conspiracies and the ones that are just fun to talk about. Can't wildly speculate about the dyatlov pass incident, they just make it weird. Can't talk about the Cia toppling governments in Central america...as yet again they just make it dumb and weird.

...we should hunt them like the movie Hard Target/surviving the game/etc.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Kassiopeija said:
It's because here in Germany we have put "fracking" gas mining down by law (as it is potentially dangerous) and we also have several policies installed to get away from atomics & coal. But there are not many alternatives, windcraft is killing endangered species, and solar is somehow problematic because the sheer generation of the hardware has also not been much carbon-neutral - although this has become better now in recent times.

And the Russian gas is very economic to buy and much cleaner than the US gas, which even has to be shipped over a large distance. We even had to invest largely into a sub-sea pipeline to actually enable gas transfer because these Ukrainians were not keeping their end of the contract and downright stealing our gas en route so the Russian cut it short.

But trading with Russia will much better serve to ensure peace & keep them moderate because it benefits both parties and aggression may potentially endanger that. And Russia is big enough to be self-sustaining and then when half of the world dont even uphold these sanctions it's pointless to begin with it will only push them more eastern.

Many people here are critically questioning the seriosity of US global policies when they promote their interests so aggressively.
Click to expand...
Natural gas coming from Russia was stolen from the people of Russia by oligarchs during the shift from demand to capitalist economy. Those same oligarchs are literally killing people to stay in power and keep people suppressed. Dirty money from these thefts is destabilizing democracy around the world. Not to mention the killings in Russia that are direct outcomes from the Putin and oligarch crime gangs.

What in hell is a former German Prime Minister doing in the middle of all this. Doesn't that sound fishy to you?

I'm not making this up. It's not even a secret.

Putin sat on the advisory board of the St. Petersburg Real Estate Holding Company (SPAG), created in 1992. Other players in SPAG included the head of the Tambov mafia group, and SPAG was alleged to be involved in laundering money for, among others, the Cali drug cartel. When German investigators raided 27 offices and banks connected with SPAG, Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder blocked the investigation and turned the documents over to President Putin. Not long after, in late 2005, Schroeder left office and became head of the shareholders’ committee of Nord Stream AG. This firm was in the process of laying what is now the world’s longest ocean-bottom pipeline, designed to carry Russian natural gas along the floor of the Baltic Sea directly to Germany. Matthias Waring, a former officer in the East German Stasi and a friend of Putin’s from his Dresden days, became Nord Stream’s head.

Dawisha describes Putin’s special approach to making illegal activity legal (p. 150 ). His business activities have included involvement with the Tambov and Malyshev crime groups in the Petersburg Fuel Company to “fix prices, evade taxation, and skim deliveries” (p. 142). This led Spanish authorities to tell the U.S. Embassy in Madrid that Russia was a “virtual mafia state” and to express concern that Putin was involved with the mafia (p. 144).

Bodies eventually began to pile up. Nearly three-hundred people, for instance, were killed in the September 1999 apartment-building bombings in Moscow and two other cities that introduced the Second Chechen War. More than twice that number were injured. Dawisha provides an astonishing account of convenient accidents, murders, and unsolved disappearances of whistleblowers, disaffected cronies, journalists, and people whose businesses or other assets were attractive acquisitions. The luckier targets were able to retire or move abroad.

Then again, you completely distort or perhaps don't understand solar and wind power. The Audubon Society, a US environmental protection group that is dedicated to protecting birds states very clearly that global warming is the greatest threat to bird species and endorse wind power while working with wind power companies to reduce damage from wind turbines. Photovoltaic cells are economically and environmentally sound and a necessary component of any zero emissions strategy.

Then there is the political leverage that Europe's dependence on Russian natural gas which Putin is and will continue to use against the EU.

If you want to do a whataboutism regarding US production, then do so and we can continue to deflect from what Putin is doing to Ukraine. Maybe that's your intent, IDK.
 
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Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/558655-cleaner-us-gas-can-reduce-europes-reliance-on-russian-energy
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so a former white house repr writes an article on this - based on a study also by the US (what a "neutral" approach!)

hoooo in that study they did "model" methane release and then compare their mostly theoretical results.

could you please point out to me where the section is that envaluates the damage done to the environment by using "fracking" extraction method? "Hydraulic fracturing"... strange, none of these associated keywords actually appear...

very one-sided study for propaganda purposes

then CNBC... Al Jazeera... wow this is fucking politics propaganda BS

thing is, we live by different standard. we dont want gas derived from fracking. we have that down by law, we think that method is dangerous to the environment in another way. it causes earthquakes etc you are missing the point, which has been made now multiple times.
we dont want that to happen so we ofc wont support it by buying gas that is derived that way.
in contrast most of the Russian gas a byproduct of other resources extraction.
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
CCGNZ said:
I've got some German in my blood,but as a American I'm conflicted by Germany's refusal to spend the proper GDP towards defense in NATO,I don't say this w/hostility because I know the German psyche grapples w/the past,but as an American who sees how superior your social programs are vis a vis my country's and what we spend on defense I can't help but detect some selfishness in Germany regarding this issue. Almost 70 yrs. have passed, Japan is starting to come out of their shell and so should Germany. I do agree that trading w/Russia can tamp down tensions and I even advocate Western investment in Russia to sway them away from China. I just think it paints Germany in a bit of a bad light when they are one of if not THE wealthiest member (excluding the USA) in NATO and they are the stingiest in spending. Imagine if post war the US halved their Military spending for domestic programs, chances that Ivan w/more tanks than God w/millions of Kalishnikovs would have charged through the Fulda gap 50 yrs. ago. Thank Uncle Sam and America's Military commitment to Germany that that horrible scenario was deterred.
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from my point of view it is mind-boggling how much the US is willing to spend into wars, and how paranoid & aggressive you pursue your interests.
we here in Germany are heavily funding the EU, and try to empower the green revolution. this is where we really put alot of money into it. not wars, or weapons, or military. this is a primitive way to deal with problems.
we are not very rich from an individual point, the scandinavians have higher income & better social security. our quality of life & social security took a large hit as we had to care about several millions migrants caused by the stupid wars in arabia.
look at other countries when they have migrants many will hav to live on the streets, falling easy prey to become criminals. we want to prevent that so our social laws impose that the state has to give shelter - a home - to anyone living here. we also give them work. but its costly to do that so we have to cut funds elsewhere.
seriously, here in Germany we don't understand the paranoia the US has with the Russian. 20 years ago we made a deal to take german WW2 emigrants back and this cultural influx caused a mutual understanding. Most problems we have is with the Kremlin that kills political rivals & bully their neighbours. But all big militaristic states do that to some extent...
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Kassiopeija said:
from my point of view it is mind-boggling how much the US is willing to spend into wars, and how paranoid & aggressive you pursue your interests.
we here in Germany are heavily funding the EU, and try to empower the green revolution. this is where we really put alot of money into it. not wars, or weapons, or military. this is a primitive way to deal with problems.
we are not very rich from an individual point, the scandinavians have higher income & better social security. our quality of life & social security took a large hit as we had to care about several millions migrants caused by the stupid wars in arabia.
look at other countries when they have migrants many will hav to live on the streets, falling easy prey to become criminals. we want to prevent that so our social laws impose that the state has to give shelter - a home - to anyone living here. we also give them work. but its costly to do that so we have to cut funds elsewhere.
seriously, here in Germany we don't understand the paranoia the US has with the Russian. 20 years ago we made a deal to take german WW2 emigrants back and this cultural influx caused a mutual understanding. Most problems we have is with the Kremlin that kills political rivals & bully their neighbours. But all big militaristic states do that to some extent...
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No argument about the way Republican led wars have caused massive losses to the US and its victims in war. Our last war with Afghanistan ended terribly but I'm glad Biden decided to pull the plug and leave.

The funny thing about what you said is, Biden has said up front the US will not send troops into Ukraine. Period. End of story. Yet Putin and you keep talking as if he never said it. NATO is an alliance for the defense of its partners, not aggression.

What does that have to do with Putin's aggressive use of violent force to wreck Ukraine?

Is that how you defend Putin's kleptocracy and criminal gang of oligarchs? You haven't responded to that point at all. The natural gas that Europe needs from Russia right now, because they have no better alternative, is stolen from the people of Russian. It is used to fund mayhem around the world and is destabilizing democracy. Yet here you are blathering on about subjects that have nothing to do with Putin's saber rattling followed by demands that NATO cut off Ukraine from ever entering that defense pact.

To me, it doesn't make sense to include Ukraine but that doesn't mean NATO and the US in particular shouldn't answer Ukraine's requests for help.

I'm glad you gave up the false argument about how bad solar and wind power are. It was a bad look. ;)
 
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Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Kassiopeija said:
so a former white house repr writes an article on this - based on a study also by the US (what a "neutral" approach!)

hoooo in that study they did "model" methane release and then compare their mostly theoretical results.

could you please point out to me where the section is that envaluates the damage done to the environment by using "fracking" extraction method? "Hydraulic fracturing"... strange, none of these associated keywords actually appear...

very one-sided study for propaganda purposes

then CNBC... Al Jazeera... wow this is fucking politics propaganda BS

thing is, we live by different standard. we dont want gas derived from fracking. we have that down by law, we think that method is dangerous to the environment in another way. it causes earthquakes etc you are missing the point, which has been made now multiple times.
we dont want that to happen so we ofc wont support it by buying gas that is derived that way.
in contrast most of the Russian gas a byproduct of other resources extraction.
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i go to websites that have the highest ratings for telling the non biased truth...that you consider those "fucking politics propaganda bs" tells me enough.

https://adfontesmedia.com/

these are the best people i've found at giving relaible ratings for a websites veracity, it's run by a very knowledgeable group of people that i trust to be unbiased and stay within their system.

so my go tos are NPR, PBS, Associated Press, CNN, TWSJ, Reuters, CNBC, and the BBC.... i throw in al jazeera and Channel News Asia to fill in the gaps, both of which are rated highly for both veracity and fairness of reporting.

i'm wondering where you get your news?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Kassiopeija said:
so a former white house repr writes an article on this - based on a study also by the US (what a "neutral" approach!)

hoooo in that study they did "model" methane release and then compare their mostly theoretical results.

could you please point out to me where the section is that envaluates the damage done to the environment by using "fracking" extraction method? "Hydraulic fracturing"... strange, none of these associated keywords actually appear...

very one-sided study for propaganda purposes

then CNBC... Al Jazeera... wow this is fucking politics propaganda BS

thing is, we live by different standard. we dont want gas derived from fracking. we have that down by law, we think that method is dangerous to the environment in another way. it causes earthquakes etc you are missing the point, which has been made now multiple times.
we dont want that to happen so we ofc wont support it by buying gas that is derived that way.
in contrast most of the Russian gas a byproduct of other resources extraction.
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Hey, I have a question regarding your former Prime Minister working for a known gangster criminal to build a pipeline that will further enrich criminal Russian oligarchs. How do you stomach that?
 
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