Stoner's views on Firearm rights.

flipping heck, what are you going to need to accept that a handgun is designed for killing. the handgun mentioned is a minature cannon. a cannon is an invention built off the fire lance, the firelance is a proto-gun. let's jsut totally ignore what it was made for 1000 years ago, and you tell me what it is manufactured for today and for the past how many years other than killing, and target practice is hardly a valid use. you are nitpicking to try and refrain from talking about the actual issue.

at CSI, i'd be interested to see what you disagree on as you seem to be more willing to debate points sensibly. We are from VERY different countries, other than times like the world cup, we wouldn't here of flying flags from our roofs and lawns etc, we are taught about our hsitory on a very broad level and rarely look at things in a patriotic manner, i can takes guesses as to why but nothing more than a guess. Are you saying that i, and my fellow brits, are spitting on the bones of our grandfathers who fought for our freedom? not in any small tangible way, we utterly respect them, they all fought with guns etc, we also had civil wars with swords and whatnot as well as cross border wars with the scots. we have all put down our weapons once the war is done with and settled back to normal, but that does not mean we have no respect for the people who fought with wepaons and died and such.

one thing i've never quite been able to understand is why guns are classed as "freedoms" especially when you are free to do pretty much nothing but own it and what the government tells you you can do with it. (there may be history to the freedom from back in the day, the part about the government telling you what to do with it is a second question aside from the first point)

". The person who holds the gun decided what it's used for, and i am a peaceful person. I could own 50 guns, and still not kill anyone."

and the bad guy decides he will not get busted before he goes in.

My point is, ALL guns were designed for killing. But it's not out of the realm of possibility that we can enjoy them without harming someone. What about the "illegal" firearms you spoke of earlier. What were they? Full-Autos? What were you doing with them? Why are they illegal? Probably because some asshole decided "there's no possible use for them but killing."

If I want to kill someone, a handgun is the poorest choice in the arsenal. While a 9mm is a pretty effective killing tool, most handguns are about stopping power...NOT leaving a mortal wound. You shoot me in the chest with a .45, .44, or .357 and when I get out of the hospital, I'll shoot you in the chest with a 12 ga, .223, .338, or even a compound bow. You'd be dead before the ambulance arrived.

That's why so few people use handguns for hunting...they DON'T kill worth a damn.

The constitution was for written just after our bloody fight for independence from Britain. It was not ratified at first, but a Bill of Rights was added, and then it was signed. The Bill of Rights are a list of freedoms guaranteed to us, and they did not come cheaply. Thats why we view it as a "freedom". Because it is.

Having just fought a war for independence, we wanted to make sure that future generations had the ability to stand up to oppression. The Right to bear arms is so much more than personal protection, its about protection of our culture, way of life, our country, and the ABILITY to preserve our other rights. Do you trust your government to always do whats best for you? How about this: Do you trust the US Federal government? I sure don't.

Its not just about the local robber. Its also about being able to defend against our own government. And defending the country from foreign invaders.

Also, keep in mind that the US has a lot of land area. If im up in the rockies, facing a big bear, or mountain lion, a gun is very important to have. Its not just the cities. A lot of farmers use firearms to protect their land.

Im not saying that you are spitting on the graves of your grandfathers, but if we gave up our Bill of Rights in America, we would be spitting on our grandfathers.

KitchenKhemist said:

My point is, ALL guns were designed for killing. But it's not out of the realm of possibility that we can enjoy them without harming someone. What about the "illegal" firearms you spoke of earlier. What were they? Full-Autos? What were you doing with them? Why are they illegal? Probably because some asshole decided "there's no possible use for them but killing."

If I want to kill someone, a handgun is the poorest choice in the arsenal. While a 9mm is a pretty effective killing tool, most handguns are about stopping power...NOT leaving a mortal wound. You shoot me in the chest with a .45, .44, or .357 and when I get out of the hospital, I'll shoot you in the chest with a 12 ga, .223, .338, or even a compound bow. You'd be dead before the ambulance arrived.

That's why so few people use handguns for hunting...they DON'T kill worth a damn.

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it's not out of the realm of possibility yet america hasn't managed it in how many years now?

the illegal gun in mention belonged to the father of a friend of mine. they were all fully licensed, and they are well, i can't say who they are but they definately wouldn't want to be caught with an illegal weapon. the gun in question was a pump action center fire rifle, which was banned i believe as a result of a 16 man killing ironically. (don't get me talking about whether i agree with the way we ban things the moment there is an incident, it's daft i'll freely admit). the gun was farily old so i assume was bought prior to the 1988 firearms act banning such weapons (the killer actually used a handgun, ak47 and M1)

i can't give an excuse for why you can't performa a headshot, but i assure you if i shoot you in the face as far from difficult, there is a high probability you will not be leaving hospital as you imagine. this may again be cultural, big bore and stopping power would be the last thing on my mind if i was having to shoot someone. if you shoot someone, aim straight at the head, it is easy, and it's not small. the only case i think i would realistically find myself using a gun on someone would be if they too had a gun, in which case, due to it being a gun fight, stopping them and their momentum is pretty much irrlevent.

you can kill an elephant with a handgun

CSI Stickyicky said:

The constitution was for written just after our bloody fight for independence from Britain. It was not ratified at first, but a Bill of Rights was added, and then it was signed. The Bill of Rights are a list of freedoms guaranteed to us, and they did not come cheaply. Thats why we view it as a "freedom". Because it is.

Having just fought a war for independence, we wanted to make sure that future generations had the ability to stand up to oppression. The Right to bear arms is so much more than personal protection, its about protection of our culture, way of life, our country, and the ABILITY to preserve our other rights. Do you trust your government to always do whats best for you? How about this: Do you trust the US Federal government? I sure don't.

Its not just about the local robber. Its also about being able to defend against our own government. And defending the country from foreign invaders.

Also, keep in mind that the US has a lot of land area. If im up in the rockies, facing a big bear, or mountain lion, a gun is very important to have. Its not just the cities. A lot of farmers use firearms to protect their land.

Im not saying that you are spitting on the graves of your grandfathers, but if we gave up our Bill of Rights in America, we would be spitting on our grandfathers.

Click to expand...

so it is a cultural definition of freedom. her in the UK we see it as no such thing and we don't feel scared for it. i can understand though that if you are brought up to have great pride in your past, then well, it's your upbringing, i can't argue against you on that. jsut in the same way if you tried to force me to be full of pride and patriotism with flags and national anthems etc i'd be totally against the concept, we're a nation that tends to be a bit quiet about things (we have been utter wankers in the past so maybe that's it haha )

can you honestly say you could defend you home and family from the government? considering jsut what they have at their disposal, and again would be based on resolve vs increased force. not sure whether i should mention martin luther king, possibly a good example, possbily not, shtoned

i completely agree on the whole famers, bears etc etc, that is totally aceptable, and it is totally similar in the UK, a huge number of farmers own guns for foxes and badgers etc. i'm sure that if we had half of the wildlife in our countryside as you do yours we'd think twice about protection. i guess it's largely handguns i have beef with, they encourage dastardly deeds with their concealability and portability (same reason an assasin of old might have used a knife isntead of a broadsword)

"i guess it's largely handguns i have beef with, they encourage dastardly deeds with their concealability and portability"

I disagree. Like i said earlier, i own and can legally carry a handgun. My handgun has never encouraged me to do something i didnt want to do. If my intention was to do dastardly deeds, than a handgun would absolutely be dangerous in my hands. But i do not want to do bad things, the presence of a handgun does not change that. Like i said earlier, people kill other people with hammers, and knives. If someone intends to commit a heinous act, they will do it with whatever they can find. Crime and legal gun ownership do not equal the same thing.

As far as being able to defend against the government and their superior weaponry, it would be hard. But, look at whats happening in Afghanistan, and Iraq. Or when Afghanistan defended itself against USSR. Or the US revolution against the superior British Army. A determined local populace is not to be taken lightly.

Fisherman Pete said:

it's not out of the realm of possibility yet america hasn't managed it in how many years now?

the illegal gun in mention belonged to the father of a friend of mine. they were all fully licensed, and they are well, i can't say who they are but they definately wouldn't want to be caught with an illegal weapon. the gun in question was a pump action center fire rifle, which was banned i believe as a result of a 16 man killing ironically. (don't get me talking about whether i agree with the way we ban things the moment there is an incident, it's daft i'll freely admit). the gun was farily old so i assume was bought prior to the 1988 firearms act banning such weapons (the killer actually used a handgun, ak47 and M1)

i can't give an excuse for why you can't performa a headshot, but i assure you if i shoot you in the face as far from difficult, there is a high probability you will not be leaving hospital as you imagine. this may again be cultural, big bore and stopping power would be the last thing on my mind if i was having to shoot someone. if you shoot someone, aim straight at the head, it is easy, and it's not small. the only case i think i would realistically find myself using a gun on someone would be if they too had a gun, in which case, due to it being a gun fight, stopping them and their momentum is pretty much irrlevent.

you can kill an elephant with a handgun

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Since we're talkin headshots, I'll take a wrist rocket and a steel ball bearing. With which I can effectively kill you, so why aren't they illegal? They were originally designed for killing AND can be concealed easily. Also, as typical of someone who was never trained to properly use a handgun, you think aiming for the head is the way to go in a standoff-type situation. Center of mass newbie, center of mass. You probably wont understand it, but aiming for the chest/midsection is the best technique under such circumstances. While the dumbass from across the sea is dicking around, trying to "aim" for a headshot, he gets smoked in the body by the guy who knows how to point at a bigger target when rushed.

Guess you missed the point of the illegal rifle...you enjoyed it right? Didn't kill anyone? Thought so.

Cigarette smoking is the highest cause of preventable death in the UK...can you still buy a pack of smokes? I guess we'll kill each other instantly with handguns, you buffoons can commit suicide...slowly withering away in hospitals, taking up time, money, and space.

But the United Kingdom is soooo smart and advanced because they outlawed handguns! Get that oil leak plugged yet? Guess we're just waiting on you dumbasses to give up and get out of the way. God forbid you let anyone who knows what they're doing near the damned thing (like the 5th grade Americans who came up with better ideas than a multi-billion-dollar British company's best heads). We can't push you out of the way either, you'll start crying...like when your BP pensions fell through the floor.

CSI, by dastardly deeds i mean someone has it in their head to break into someones house and rob them blind, in which case they will think right, protection, and a handgun, in this day and age, is one of the best concealable and usable weapons to protect themselves and get away without arrest. i also believe along the lines of it's not guns that kill people, but people do, and there are too many of these people in my opinion.

KitchenKhemist said:

Since we're talkin headshots, I'll take a wrist rocket and a steel ball bearing. With which I can effectively kill you, so why aren't they illegal? They were originally designed for killing AND can be concealed easily.

Guess you missed the point of the illegal rifle...you enjoyed it right? Didn't kill anyone? Thought so.

Cigarette smoking is the highest cause of preventable death in the UK...can you still buy a pack of smokes? I guess we'll kill each other instantly with handguns, you buffoons can commit suicide...slowly withering away in hospitals, taking up time, money, and space.

But the United Kingdom is soooo smart and advanced because they outlawed handguns! Get that oil leak plugged yet? Guess we're just waiting on you dumbasses to give up and get out of the way. God forbid you let anyone who knows what they're doing near the damned thing (like the 5th grade Americans who came up with better ideas than a multi-billion-dollar British company's best heads). We can't push you out of the way either, you'll start crying...like when your BP pensions fell through the floor.

Click to expand...

kitchenkemist, you are being plain silly, you are now doing anything you can to ignore the debate at hand. this has nothing to do with what can and cannot be used to kill people. that aside, do you really think the principle of elasticity was designed to kill people. a "wrist rocket" as you so quaintly call it, is a slingshot, which is nothing more than modifying a pre-existing principal to a new use. do you want to now dive off and discuss the reason behind the invention of rubber chord? or the purpose behind the existence of the rubber plant etc? that is how daft this is, you are doing everything to ignore the matter at hand. maybe we should discuss whether gravity is immoral considering it is used for purpose of dropping people off tall places.

FYI, i found out the rifle was an illegal variety about a week ago, 6 years after the act? but yeah, i did find it great fun, we went out and shot targets then took the shotgusn out on a pheasant shoot. i have stated multiple times i like guns.

oh, and don't worry about the oil leak, we're leaving it till your whole coast is fucked before we let you deal with the problem, and then our promised money magically stops being deposited into the fund. haha . i can now see that you are TOTALLY unfit for a sensible debate considering as you are now trying to take it totally off topic and trying to make it a simple mudslinging match.

Back at ya. Do some research on the slingshot. It was a weapon long before handguns were shitting yellow.

Once again....maybe you don't see my point. I don't care whether you like guns or not. you were able to enjoy an illegal firearm without killing anyone. You couldn't do that with a handgun?

I'm not ignoring the matter at hand at all. You are the one now backing off the subject..."this has nothing to do with what can and cannot be used to kill people." That's how the argument started. Need I remind you?

I'm wasting my time, thinking into this too much. What it boils down to is just another jealous idiot who can't own a handgun and, therefore, thinks nobody else should.

yet you miss the wholllle point. a slignshot is a weapon based around elastic. hardly a new invention. noone suddenly thought hey if i mix this and this aling it like this blah, wow, i'll call it a slingshot, someone simply looked at the huge concept that is elasticity and figured that will work no different to the bow an arrow. guns are a different story. you are again being silly

second point, totally missed, as stated earlier, it doesn't matter if there are 50 people perfectly safe with a handgun, there are 50 who are not. criminals don't care about safe use of a gun, if it will stop them being caught, then they will use it, that is the whole basis of being a sucsessful bad guy, you don't get caught, and due to most being dumb arses to be in the abd guy situation, then they will rely on violence and not wits.

not ignoring the matter, read the title, noone gives 5 fucks about swords and humvees and guided missiles and e very fucking thousand ways of killing someone with a teaspoon. we're talking about firearms. if you want to me debate what is and isn't a deadly weapon simply in it's design, then go make a thread.

first it's oil, and now it's jealousy.... you are amazing. what it boils down to is you're too much of a faggot to walk outside without a gun and i'm a man, you know with a big pair of hairy balls between my legs, who is more than comfortable to go into a situation with my fists. let's see how stupid we can make this debate

What the fuck does elastic have anything to do with it? YOU are missing the whole point! A handgun is no different than a slingshot, or a knife, or a fucking humvee. Knives and cars kill more people every year than handguns do, yet you don't want to outlaw them...just handguns. You're being a hypocrite. Everytime I make a point, you either act like you missed it or change the subject...or maybe you really are that stupid. I don't walk around with a gun for protection...that's NOT why I have it. I own a handgun because I fucking CAN. You don't live in the US, you can't own a gun. I'm sorry. Talk all you want about how great it is in the UK without handguns...I don't care. But when you start talking shit on Americans for owning them, when you've never even fired one, I'm gonna jump in and show you how stupid you look.

I don't walk around outside with my gun. I've hurt FAR more people with my fists than I have ANY weapon. You just can't outlaw something because people have used it to kill other people. If we did, EVERYTHING would be illegal. Handguns are no different than shotguns, rifles, slingshots, rocks, knives, cars, glass bottles, etc...oh yeah, no one gives a fuck about those things since they're detrimental to YOUR argument.

I could waste my time all day here, but you're not gonna get it. You're ignorant. How can you enter a handgun debate when you've never even touched one? Ever hear "Don't knock it till you've tried it?"

NoDrama said:

Imagine if passengers aboard planes could carry guns. 911 would not have happened.

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While i still think an airline flight is a good place to not allow guns, (unless they only allow certain types of ammo) i do firmly believe that the reason that Al Qaeda doesn't attack our mainland is that they know it would be what Massad Ayoob calls "A fatal error in the victim selection process"

The reason we rarely ever get attacked: it would be suicide. The only 2 times we got attacked on our homeland in the past century were suicidal kamikaze japanese and suicidal muslims. You don't mess with the US unless you want to die.

KitchenKhemist said:

What the fuck does elastic have anything to do with it? YOU are missing the whole point! A handgun is no different than a slingshot, or a knife, or a fucking humvee. Knives and cars kill more people every year than handguns do, yet you don't want to outlaw them...just handguns. You're being a hypocrite. Everytime I make a point, you either act like you missed it or change the subject...or maybe you really are that stupid. I don't walk around with a gun for protection...that's NOT why I have it. I own a handgun because I fucking CAN. You don't live in the US, you can't own a gun. I'm sorry. Talk all you want about how great it is in the UK without handguns...I don't care. But when you start talking shit on Americans for owning them, when you've never even fired one, I'm gonna jump in and show you how stupid you look.

I don't walk around outside with my gun. I've hurt FAR more people with my fists than I have ANY weapon. You just can't outlaw something because people have used it to kill other people. If we did, EVERYTHING would be illegal. Handguns are no different than shotguns, rifles, slingshots, rocks, knives, cars, glass bottles, etc...oh yeah, no one gives a fuck about those things since they're detrimental to YOUR argument.

I could waste my time all day here, but you're not gonna get it. You're ignorant. How can you enter a handgun debate when you've never even touched one? Ever hear "Don't knock it till you've tried it?"

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i mentioned a handcannon on a chinese battlefield, you started talking about how that was a smnall cannon which was blah and then you talked about how none of these were originally designed as weapons but had previous civil use. the physics of elastic and tension were known a long time before the slingshot was invented. i was using your own point against you...

once again, noone gives a fuck about what else kills people, open a different thread if that is your agenda! this is about guns. guns are not used to take the children to school (well maybe for you guys ) the simpsons episoide is a brilliant example of why you cannot compare a handgun to a car... jesus christ. and a knife in the UK depending on size is banned from being taken in public for the exact same reason as mentioned before, they can be easily concealed and used to great effect.

i don't live in the US but i can most certainly own a gun, we're really hitting rock bottom on the intelligence now aren't we. the fact that you own one because you can just makes a perfect example of your ignorance to EVERYTHING. you don't have a reason, yet you digure you should have one, now the guy breaking in your house thinks he probably has one because he can. VICIOUS FUCKING CIRCLE! you have to be a fucking retard if you cannot accept that if a robber knows you are probably carrying a gun, he will want to carry a bigger gun. if you cannot reply and agree to that then fuck this, you're not worth a word to. if you can't agree, then explain why all robbers carry guns in america and not in england, explain to me why if it is not that the robber is scared of you now, wheras in england, as has been said, if they want a gun they can get one.

if you have read anything you'll know that shotguns nd rifles are perfectly legal, due to the fact that it's fucking hard to mosey on upto a random shop with a shotgun tucked down your trousers. you miss the point yet again, pistols can be concealed.

shotguns - legal
rifles - legal to an extent
slingshots - legal, who the fuck got killed by a slingshot in the last decade
rocks - legal, it's a fucking rock, what a fucking stupid example
knives - if not designed for eating and kitchen/work use, illegal, they can be concealed, already discussed
cars - it is a car, it was not designed to end a life.
glass bottles - designed to hold drink

anything under the sun can be modified to kill, hence why it's a fucking stupid debate to be talking about whether everything else should be illegal. get over it, we are talking about guns.

"don't knock it till you've tried it"

1. i've used handguns
2. a gun is a gun, you pull the trigger, it fires a projectile. certainly pistols are fun but they serve me no practicle use.

i've never tried heroin though, maybe that's really not bad at all, just a fucking over-reaction by society eh?

i have adressed every point you made in your post, apart from talking shit on americans. i have done nothing of the sort. i have stated my opinion on a gun culture, not on americans. do you really think i'm sat here thinking that the british are superior human beings, we have rape murder and theft to you know. didn' hear about the recent cumbria massacre? i'm being northing but realistic. you will also notice i haeve asked for peoples reasons for disagreeing and have taken them on board and questioned them, you are doing nothing more than trying to claim that america is better than england.

o

CSI said:

The reason we rarely ever get attacked: it would be suicide. The only 2 times we got attacked on our homeland in the past century were suicidal kamikaze japanese and suicidal muslims. You don't mess with the US unless you want to die.

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what do you define as the US might/government. this is going back to the question of do you think you could defend yourself against the government. if the people turned arou/nd and stated with guns in the air we want legal cannabis on a federal level, would the army navy and airforce stand with you or would the government squash you with the might that the al quaeda fear? it seems a little odd that one argument is to defend against the government when you really cant. top what extent do you call protection? protection from the govt for me would be like shooting a policeman trying to arrest you etc. that or all out war in which case the question of the military backing who

"if a robber knows you are probably carrying a gun, he will want to carry a bigger gun."

Or choose a different house. If all houses had guns, he might choose to get a real job.

[video=youtube;wX8mp6rkf_Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX8mp6rkf_Q[/video]

since when has there not been bandits and thieves? even if every house has guns, there will be people robbing them, the robbers know that it won't be occupied 24/7, and if they do know that, then sure, they'll choose a different house.

i'm not quite sure how to react to the video, it can be looked at from many angles. to start with that is america, of course that's a plain stupid idea, the guns are already in circulation and out of control, it would require billions of pounds of enforcement and such to try and remove guns from america should they try and do it. in the UK on the other hand, i would happily put that sign up right now. i have no reason not to. in the same way that criminals think you have weapons you think they have weapons. the video just points out that gun control in america is now negative in terms of your familes safety and wellbeing. surely that's not good.

I don't care when each was made. That wasn't my point. My point was that we have, for some reason, singled out handguns.

Just as nobody gives a fuck about the slingshot or handcannon, I don't give a fuck about handguns. They're not illegal, they shouldn't be.

The fact that some knives are also banned in the UK just leads me to believe that you'd let your government take anything from you. Hope nobody does to the UK like Hitler did to Poland. You poor cocksuckers are gonna be defenseless before long.

And I never said shotguns and rifles were illegal. What I DID say was that they're no different than a handgun...except in the sense that those who are legally forbidden to own them, believe all the bullshit their government shoveled when they took them away.

If I was going to rob a shop in the UK, I wouldn't need a handgun. I could confidently mosey up to the aforementioned shop with a sawed-off shotgun in hand, knowing that all of these idiots let their government take their handguns away. No surprises...I like it.

My house has never been robbed. Partially due to the fact that any potential burglar has to wonder if I'm packing before he comes in. But I'm ignorant for owning a gun because I can. I say you're ignorant for living in a country with the Monarchy's dick so far up your ass, you let them take what they want from you. And how do you know that ALL robbers in America carry guns? Fucking dumbass. To act like that is a fact is beyond retarded. There's your answer dicklips. Not ALL robbers in America carry guns...switch the TV back to shitty british comedy (See? I can stereotype too). Your crime rate (per capita) is WAY higher than America's. Probably because criminals know they can mug people/break into their houses/murder them and only have to worry about the victim wielding a croquet mallet. Whereas here, they've got a good chance of a hot lead injection.

And yes, you WERE talking shit on Americans. Half-assedly calling us buffoons for our second amendment...you did it several times. As a matter of fact, you started out with it. You didn't see anyone come out of left field talkin about how the UK needs to grow a pair and take their guns back. If it seems like I was trying to claim America is better than England, it's in response to the England vs America attitude you came out with.

Like you said, "Anything under the sun can be modified to kill." Just like handguns. THEY AREN'T WEAPONS UNTIL USE USE THEM AGAINST SOMEBODY. When my XBOX went to hell, I took it out and shot it with my .357. Had a fucking blast doing it too. Practical or not. Kinda like the people who collect swords and shit...no practical use. Some people just enjoy them.

CSI Stickyicky said:

While i still think an airline flight is a good place to not allow guns, (unless they only allow certain types of ammo) i do firmly believe that the reason that Al Qaeda doesn't attack our mainland is that they know it would be what Massad Ayoob calls "A fatal error in the victim selection process"

The reason we rarely ever get attacked: it would be suicide. The only 2 times we got attacked on our homeland in the past century were suicidal kamikaze japanese and suicidal muslims. You don't mess with the US unless you want to die.

Click to expand...

Yeah, its along the lines of a quote by Admiral Yamamoto: "You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."

I have owned a gun of one type or another since My father gave me my First .22 rifle at the age of 5. I still have it and it still works wonderfully.

Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

Adolf Hitler: "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country."

Mao Tse Tung: "All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party."

Guess what? Britain is full of slaves, they cannot control their government because they do not have the means to.

If they don't know i'm home, and choose my house, thats one less robber around. No choosing a different house, no clean getaway, no jail time, no court case, just an idiot bleeding out on my front lawn, and a chilling reminder to all other criminals that it might be time to fill out some job applications. The point is that they don't know which houses will get them a score, and which houses will end in their own demise. In Britain, any house would be a good score. Thats why your crime rate is so damn high over there.

CSI, if i wanted to rob your house i could do so within a week (assuming i knew which house this was )

i previously talked about how criminals are generally the dumb shits of society and as such rely on violence a fair bit, but even the dumbest criminal can study a house over the period of a few days and work out when to strike. robbing detatched houses is probably the easiest crime there is.

any house is a good score. do you know how rare it is for a house to be robbed while the residents are around? very! maybe all of your criminals are idiots, certainly a lot of ours are, but on the whole they know what they are doing. my murder figure earlier shows this, american robbers dont, they get pannicked and hey, a bullet it but the touch of a trigger away.

the touch of a trigger away is where slingshots and guns don't come into the same catagory, the chances of running into someone adept enough to kill you with a slingshot is ridiculous, wheras to quote imortal techineuq,

"Any bitch nigga with a gun, can bust slugs
Any nigga with a red shirt can front like a blood
Even Puffy smoked the motherfucker up in a club
But only a real thug can stab someone till they die
Standing in front of them, starring straight into their eyes"

haha, anyways, this has always been proven to be a completely unwinnable or agreeable argument, the mentalities are too different so i'll leave it at this.

CSI stickyicky, great talk, it's very rare to have a topic like this that remains as civil and sensible, you offer some good points worth merit, and brings the phrase a zebra can't change it's stripes to mind. we both have our ideologies and principals. i uphold mine in a amture and sensible fashion and take pride in this, you seem to do the same so differences aside i cannot but respect you for this. Cheerio