Tax-Financed Health Care: More Bang for the Buck

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
By Johnathon Ross, Toledo Blade. Posted August 21, 2007.

The profit motive runs contrary to the best cooperative and Samaritan traditions of medical practice and training.

Shame on all of us, especially those of us in positions of public trust. Forty-five million of our friends, family, and neighbors, including 1.3 million Ohioans, have no health-care coverage at all.

Tens of millions more are at risk of bankruptcy even though they have insurance. Their coverage is too skimpy to protect them financially.

What do the current conservative leaders of many states and the nation have to say about the fact that we spend twice as much as any other industrial democracy in the world and yet fail to cover 16 percent of the population? To paraphrase Marie Antoinette, "Let them buy high-deductible health plans."

But who are the uninsured? They are mainly (75 percent) lower-income working people and their kids. Most of these folks struggle to keep food on the table and the lights on. They can't afford even bare-bones policies.

What are the facts, not the hype, on market-based reforms such as Health Savings Accounts (HSAs), high-deductible health plans, and mandated insurance (a la Massachusetts)? These represent the next bogus effort to keep private insurers in charge of our crumbling sickness care non-system. Remember how they promised that a competing insurance market of Health Maintenance Organizations was going to save American health care?

Unfortunately, despite the nostrums of the market ideologues, health-care costs have continued to soar at twice the growth rate of the gross domestic product while 10 million more have gone uninsured. Pound as they might on the square peg of market forces, health care will never be a nice round market commodity.

Why? The consumer's not sovereign. The doctor, not the patient, orders the care. There's no easy exit from the market for patients. When critically (and expensively) ill, you buy or die. The most expensive health care is not necessarily desired. If open-heart surgery were on sale would you have two?

There's often inadequate information to make wise purchasing decisions. Sometimes the best doctors are unsure of the wisest course of action for a patient. It is the uncertainty of illness and its attendant costs that creates the need for insurance in the first place.

The profit motive runs contrary to the best cooperative and Samaritan traditions of medical practice and training. There are lots of natural monopolies. Should we build another hospital in Bowling Green so that the competition will leave them both half-empty? The market for medical services fails these tests of an effective market and will fail in the guise of health savings accounts.

The 10 percent of patients who are very ill generate 70 percent of the costs, averaging $39,000 per year. They will never save anything in their HSAs. Studies confirm that high out-of-pocket costs, the hallmark of HSAs, yield worse health outcomes for the poor, elderly, and chronically ill.

The health-care bureaucracy already consumes 31 percent of spending. The fees for tracking 300 million individual HSAs would only aggravate this shameful waste.

Half of personal bankruptcies are due to uncovered health-care bills, again the hallmark of HSAs. Even boosters of HSAs (Mckinsey and Co.) find 56 percent of employees less satisfied with their new accounts than their old health plans.

There is a national health insurance program (HR 676) in front of Congress and the Health Care for All Ohioans Act (HCFAO) in front of the Ohio General Assembly. Either of these plans would create an improved and expanded Medicare for all Ohioans.

Taxes would replace private insurance premiums and out of pocket payments. Taxes would go up but premiums and out of pocket payments would go down by even more. These funds, added to current public spending, would create a single insurance pool adequate to cover all for no more than we spend now.

How can this be? In a multi-payer system, the complexity yields high administrative costs. Each insurer, hospital, and doctor must keep track of myriad contracts, discount arrangements, benefit packages, formularies, limited referral networks, and insurance rules and regulations designed to reduce utilization and profit the insurers. HSAs leave this insurance and billing bureaucracy in place and then add the complexity of tracking millions of individual savings accounts.

Studies by the Government Accountability Office and the Congressional Budget Office both confirm this surprising fact - the administrative simplicity of a single universal insurance pool, such as Medicare, yields savings that allow comprehensive coverage for all at current levels of spending. A tax-based public system is simple and efficient. There is simply a lot less work to do.

How do we know it can be done? Because every other western industrial democracy already has a national health insurance program, each has managed to cover all their citizens at about half of what we spend and they still have better health outcomes than the U.S.

Business owners should realize that the health-care system provides the maintenance on their work force, just as other experts provide maintenance on their expensive and complex industrial and business machinery.

It makes good sense to get the most comprehensive maintenance system for the best price. More for the same money - value - is what tax-financed universal health insurance system can provide. Those businesses avoiding the cost of insuring their employees are the recipients of cost shifting. This occurs through higher taxes to fund indigent care and higher prices paid when doing business with companies who continue to insure their employees and pass along the costs shifted to them in the price of their products.

Patchwork solutions such as Medicaid expansions, vouchers, tax credits, or medical savings accounts won't work. They mainly serve to enrich the insurance bureaucracy. They fail to control costs and fail to cover everyone. Fundamental reform is what we need.

The Institute of Medicine estimates that 18,000 Americans die each year from lack of health insurance alone. A tax-financed universal health insurance system will save lives and save dollars. It's good for business and our health. Counter-intuitive or not, businessmen and all of us should support a single-payer universal health insurance solution. Financially, we already are.

What's the bottom line? America needs affordable universal health insurance. We can build it with administrative savings and public accountability but not with health savings accounts designed to profit Wall Street and the insurance industry. HR 676, the National Health Insurance Act or the Health Care for All Ohioans act would create an expanded and improved Medicare for all Ohioans. We know it would work because Medicare works. It would save lives and save money and it is the right thing to do.
 

medicineman

New Member
Bravo..... My sentiments exactly. I've posted that many times on this forum, single payer universal not for profit health care is the answer, period.
 

ViRedd

New Member
"Cover the Uninsured Week" -- With Honesty

by Michael F. Cannon
Michael F. Cannon is director of health policy studies at the Cato Institute.

Last week's national "Cover the Uninsured Week" should have kicked off with a little honesty. The campaign is a coalition of over 100 groups that inundated Americans with advertisements, events, and pleas from former presidents and celebrity spokesmen "to publicize the problem of allowing nearly 44 million Americans to live without health care coverage, and to highlight proposed solutions." The first problem the coalition should have addressed is how it is misleading the public.

As far back as the Clinton administration, some critics have tried to create a sense of urgency behind expanding government health programs by citing a government statistic that said something like 40 million Americans lack health insurance.

Originally, "40-something-million-uninsured" meant the persistently uninsured, i.e., those who lacked health insurance for the entire year. The Congressional Budget Office shot holes in that statistic last May when it reported the correct figure is between 21 million and 31 million. Difficult as it may be to believe, an official government statistic was off the mark by maybe 110 percent.

The CBO's figures may still be too high because they count millions of Americans who are Medicaid-eligible, and therefore have coverage whenever they need it. One-third of all "uninsured" children (2.9 million) fall into this category (the CBO gives no estimate for adults). Moreover, the persistently uninsured are mostly young (39 percent are under age 25, and another 22 percent are under age 35) or healthy (86 percent report their health to be "good," "very good," or "excellent").

Rather than admit they have been overstating the number of uninsured by a factor of two and make an embarrassing retraction, which might tend to deflate the campaign, Cover the Uninsured Week continues to claim there are 44 million uninsured. The only possible way to explain this is that they take refuge in the CBO's finding that the original, faulty government statistic does happen to be roughly equivalent to the number of Americans who lack insurance at any specific point in time, rather than for the entire year.

But this broader measure just adds to the count even more not-so-hard cases. In addition to those eligible for Medicaid, for instance, it includes people who lose their health insurance for only a brief period, such as when they graduate from college or change jobs. Over 3 million such people will regain coverage within four months, and another 6 million will regain coverage within 12 months. Various studies suggest that one-fourth (10 million) of this group decline coverage that is offered by their employers, and one-fifth (8 million) live in households making more than $50,000 per year.

The danger in overstating the number of uninsured is that we might do something foolhardy, like force taxpayers to provide them with coverage. That's what Sen. John Kerry would do if president, and it's what Congress tried to do for children in 1997 through an effort that essentially expanded Medicaid. The result? A study by the National Bureau of Economic Research found scant evidence that Medicaid improves the health of low-income children. However, another NBER study found that the expansion eroded the private health insurance market. Between one-fifth and one-half of the new enrollees were children who already had private coverage. When they enrolled in Medicaid, they became subject to the sort of government rationing that Oregon's Medicaid bureaucracy lamented when it wrote in 2001, "having coverage does not always guarantee access" to medical care.

Not every Cover the Uninsured Week sponsor supports expanding government programs. But once they commit to covering all the uninsured, there is no way to reach that goal short of compulsory health coverage. Whether it is administered by government or the private sector, compulsory health coverage means government-run health care. The campaign's official glossary even defines the underinsured as "people who have some type of health insurance, such as catastrophic care, but not enough insurance to cover all their health care costs." It's clear that Cover the Uninsured Week will drag on until all health care costs are socialized and individual responsibility is nil.

A better goal would be to restore to America's largely socialized health care system the market processes where producers compete to provide consumers with value, and consumers keep costs down by patronizing efficient producers and avoiding inefficient producers. That patient-centered process has begun with the introduction this year of health savings accounts, and it will do more to provide quality, affordable health care to the masses than a century of Cover the Uninsured Weeks.


 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
ahh yes, the Cato (I got mine, fuck everyone else) Institute.
Another collection of Conservative hacks.
 

ViRedd

New Member
ahh yes, the Cato (I got mine, fuck everyone else) Institute.
Another collection of Conservative hacks.
~lol~ ... Now you're really starting to sound like Med. How about breaking down the post I made into the parts you disagree with and refute each of those?

Vi
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
How about you put out a better researched Argument.
The Cato Institute has been call time after time for erroneous postings...
Besides if it's 20 million or 46 million uninsured is not relevant, even 1 million would be too many. But you come from the I've got mine, fuck everyone else mentality.
You see the Up side to having a Universal Healthcare System is that you would have a healthy and larger workforce. You could pay for Universal Healthcare for 1 year for what we spend a week on the Iraq war. But you really don't have a social conscience and seem to think you can take it with you.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
not this crap again....


yesterday on NPR they were discussing the inevitable meltdown of medicare and Medicaid... yep, this is just what we need, let's tie everyone's health into a giant government system so it's safe!

lol, i'd rather go to prison because at least they have to give you healthcare out of fear of being sued by the trial lawyers!

what's a citizen's recourse after voting in these socialists politicians and being sucked into yet another big government system of failure and neglect???? (correct answer is: None, that's the point. Vote for me.)




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medicineman

New Member
not this crap again....


yesterday on NPR they were discussing the inevitable meltdown of medicare and Medicaid... yep, this is just what we need, let's tie everyone's health into a giant government system so it's safe!

lol, i'd rather go to prison because at least they have to give you healthcare out of fear of being sued by the trial lawyers!

what's a citizen's recourse after voting in these socialists politicians and being sucked into yet another big government system of failure and neglect???? (correct answer is: None, that's the point. Vote for me.)




.
Baaaahhhhh. Right wingnut drivel. Wait untill your insurance co tells you you're not covered then get back to us~LOL~!
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
not this crap again....

yesterday on NPR they were discussing the inevitable meltdown of medicare and Medicaid... yep, this is just what we need, let's tie everyone's health into a giant government system so it's safe!

lol, i'd rather go to prison because at least they have to give you healthcare out of fear of being sued by the trial lawyers!

what's a citizen's recourse after voting in these socialists politicians and being sucked into yet another big government system of failure and neglect???? (correct answer is: None, that's the point. Vote for me.)

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Medicaid and Medicare wouldn't be going broke if Bush wasn't gutting them to pay for his war. Like I said before, what the United States spends in one week to pay for T.W.A.T. (The War Against Terror) in Iraq we could support a Universal Healthcare System for a year.
Your bucket has a lot of holes in it 7x, I don't think it's holding any water.

Besides if you don't think we are already in socialism, you need to take a closer look at how the country has been run since 9 -11 - 01.
Can you say the Reichstag has been burnt? I knew you could.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
so, you're saying that when i'm stricken with some expensive/terrible disease and my insurance drops me i will cry out for help to the feds and wish i'd voted in socialist politicians a long time ago?

lol

assuming that i do develop some crazy ailment which is excluded in the terms of my insurance, why wouldn't i just ask for help from the community and the doctors themselves? oh yeah, because they're taxed to pieces and broke already... and paying outrageous liability insurance premiums to help your hair boy build a new indoor skeet range or whatever...

can't you break on through this thought impediment called liberalism? you're not a damn fool so why carry on like one?




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Dankdude

Well-Known Member
Insurance companies look for excuses to drop you and not cover you.
You don't seem to realize, they have special sections in the companies that do nothing but look for ways not to pay for your medical expenses.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
Conservatism isn't always the answer, do you have a way to break out of that impediment called conservatism? I would say that your the one being the damned fool.
 

medicineman

New Member
so, you're saying that when i'm stricken with some expensive/terrible disease and my insurance drops me i will cry out for help to the feds and wish i'd voted in socialist politicians a long time ago?

lol

assuming that i do develop some crazy ailment which is excluded in the terms of my insurance, why wouldn't i just ask for help from the community and the doctors themselves? oh yeah, because they're taxed to pieces and broke already... and paying outrageous liability insurance premiums to help your hair boy build a new indoor skeet range or whatever...

can't you break on through this thought impediment called liberalism? you're not a damn fool so why carry on like one?




.
Look, the feds do a bang up job with SS and Medicare. We need to remove the profit from medical, that's all I'm saying. people shouldn't be getting rich off of peoples health woes. The profit in the health care segment, if removed, would make health care much more affordable. yes your taxes would go up, but no co pays or premiums for you and for your employers would make a better plan. For one thing, the corporations could continue to operate in this country as health care costs is one of the reasons driving them out, and I doubt if the real cost to you would go up that much, in fact if you are paying for a premium health plan, it might go down. I also agree that if people prefer their own health plan or whatever, they should be allowed to keep it, sort of an elite medical plan for the rich.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
Medicaid and Medicare wouldn't be going broke if Bush wasn't gutting them to pay for his war. Like I said before, what the United States spends in one week to pay for T.W.A.T. (The War Against Terror) in Iraq we could support a Universal Healthcare System for a year.
Your bucket has a lot of holes in it 7x, I don't think it's holding any water.

Besides if you don't think we are already in socialism, you need to take a closer look at how the country has been run since 9 -11 - 01.
Can you say the Reichstag has been burnt? I knew you could.
ok, so they run a war very ineffectively but they can manage health care...

what happens when another pres wants a war and needs money? now that he has all the government cheese junkies hooked on this fix what's going to happen then?

what is wrong with cutting back the regulation and ending the infinite law suits?

my bucket might have some holes but it's better than trying to carry water in a paper bag!





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7xstall

Well-Known Member
Look, the feds do a bang up job with SS and Medicare. We need to remove the profit from medical, that's all I'm saying. people shouldn't be getting rich off of peoples health woes. The profit in the health care segment, if removed, would make health care much more affordable. yes your taxes would go up, but no co pays or premiums for you and for your employers would make a better plan. For one thing, the corporations could continue to operate in this country as health care costs is one of the reasons driving them out, and I doubt if the real cost to you would go up that much, in fact if you are paying for a premium health plan, it might go down. I also agree that if people prefer their own health plan or whatever, they should be allowed to keep it, sort of an elite medical plan for the rich.
med, if you are gifted at healing why shouldn't you profit from that? you act like it's unnatural when it's really a basic principal of life... exploit your strengths and use them to benefit others. it's not evil to benefit by benefiting others...

if you're talking about setting up some kind of opt-in plan, fine, go for it and look at it ten years down the road but don't fund it with anything other than the money from those who want to pay for it. put a box on a tax return that lets you sign up for it and see how many doctors join in..

in the end it's still just a corporation that we call government.




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medicineman

New Member
ok, so they run a war very ineffectively but they can manage health care...

what happens when another pres wants a war and needs money? now that he has all the government cheese junkies hooked on this fix what's going to happen then?

what is wrong with cutting back the regulation and ending the infinite law suits?

my bucket might have some holes but it's better than trying to carry water in a paper bag!





.
Under a federal health care program, lawsuits would be limited or capped for each botched procedure. There would be a pool collected as a portion of the taxes designated for medical, to pay lawsuits, thus ending the multimillion dollar class action litigation. Come on now, you thought the government was going to allow lawyers free reign,~LOL~.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
so they should only protect the doctors that are in the "club"... yep, socialism is the ultimate elite club for sure.. join us or die, that should be your motto.






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medicineman

New Member
so they should only protect the doctors that are in the "club"... yep, socialism is the ultimate elite club for sure.. join us or die, that should be your motto.






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They have a choice, free will, just as you could choose your private dr. they could opt out. Just get rid of those insurance profit meisters and the horrible HMO profitmeisters that exclude you from Health care when you need it. For profit medical is a piece of crap. You want to spend 85,000 for a heart transplant, go for it, I'll take my chances with VA. They have the best medical facilities in the country. My Heart surgery would be done at UCSD medical facility, I've been there, top drawer, and the Dr.s are top of the line for they teach at that Med school. There might be 30 students watching the operation, but that should make it more likely they won't make a mistake, for they couldn't cover it up.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
practicing medicine for profit has served mankind well from the beginning... just because you give the profit to useless bureaucrats instead of hardworking doctors doesn't mean money isn't made.

if you're willing to put a cap on your hair boy's parasitic career then lets get that done now, today! watch how insurance will suddenly be affordable again, just like it used to be when the lawyers hadn't stooped to this new low.






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Dankdude

Well-Known Member
Medicine wasn't really much for profit until Nixon signed in a bill so that Kaiser Permanente could start the ball rolling for HMOs. 7x do a little research please.
 
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