Temp THC burns, decarbs, and bonds?

Discussion in 'Cooking With Cannabis' started by Gamberro, Jan 31, 2008.

  1.  
    Gamberro

    Gamberro Well-Known Member

    Yes, all my temperatures are in Farenheit, we in Canada are kindof hypocrites about our systems of measurement, so as to ensure the Americans don't think we're TOO weird.
    I don't cover the pyrex dish because in the case of coconut oil and highly clarified butter, there is little to no water.
    I DO take the dish out to stir every hour or so, to ensure the cannaflour as I call it is more or less evenly available to the oil and to ensure the settling of the actual leaf doesn't cause any issues.
    As for the bit about pulverizing the flowers, I have always ground my flowers and haven't heard of people doing differently, but I wouldn't at all recommend doing differently. The oil cannot properly infiltrate the flowers if they are solid, it might make sense to compare it to something being fried when it's still frozen, where the outside cooks but the inside remains isolated.
    I might also add that twenty minutes in the freezer is a minimum. I generally would put it in there for an hour or two, but of course I don't always have the time.
     
  2.  
    BluJayz

    BluJayz Well-Known Member

    I have more comments and questions as you have provoked early morning thought. :weed:

    I would consider adding the freezer to my rotation. However I use a crock pot with a candy thermostat to foster a better environment for my bonding. (more control)

    I am curious how you came to the conclusion of 225F for 20min? Personally I would consider that type of decarb to be one to retain more terpenes and flavoids and less THCA transform to THC. (Ill see if i can find some facts on that)

    The MMA reports that 300F for 15min = 70% conversion. (See if I can find the report)

    Also I am curious what steps you take to prevent the oil/fat from smoking and burning the THC off at 315F for any duration.

    Any scientific details would be great.
     
  3.  
    BluJayz

    BluJayz Well-Known Member

    dgs.png

    So presumably 252F for 27 min is all you need for 100% conversion.
     
  4.  
    Gamberro

    Gamberro Well-Known Member

    Although I may have only anecdotal, experiential evidence to the contrary, I find that to be VERY far off. A long cook is noticeable in the final potency, and 252º is a significantly lower temperature than I would ever recommend.
    Crock pots are a more common method it appears by looking at the Internet, however as long as you can trust your oven, the liquid tends to run about 15º below the atmospheric temperature, so I set it to 325º so that it doesn't reach the danger range, which as shown in my original numbers is about 355ºF (the range of vaporization). I ensure that all butter is very highly clarified, but of course my preferred ingredient is extra virgin coconut oil, and I have had no issue with either one burning. I will spend hours clarifying my butter to complete clarity, and the burn point of coconut oil is 350º, almost the exact same temperature as the vaporization point of the cannabis.

    My decarb temp is on the lower end because I noticed that dry heat seemed to have a chaotic effect, nowadays I do more like 235º for the decarb, but I find the ganja is more likely to get overdone during the decarboxylization process. One option is to keep it at that low temperature for longer, but over time I have noticed the crispness after 30 minutes of decarboxylation at c. 235ºF doesn't appear to change with continued heating thereafter.

    As for that MMA study, I wouldn't be so quick to dispute it as the other study you cited, although it appears theoretical in that it would take time of course to preheat the oil, but also to heat the cannaflour once it's poured in to the solution. I would say that safely 30 minutes of cooking at that temperature does roughly 70% of the job, however when cooking with a quarter pound or more of flowers, you might as well spend some time and a bit of money on heat to cook out that other ~30%. Like I said, for smaller personal batches I don't go through nearly as long a cook.

    I believe I've answered all your questions, no? Although perhaps not in perfect order :eyesmoke: Hope that helps

     
  5.  
    cannabineer

    cannabineer Ursus marijanus

    That chart is for "glass surface, open air' so oxidation effects are pronounced. i obtained complete conversion at 110 Celsius (oil bath temp) after 10-15 minutes (as checked by tlc). I could monitor reaction progress by the foaming of the hot extract. cn
     
  6.  
    poplars

    poplars Well-Known Member

    my experience as well... and had my stuff tested to confirm it is a legit method of decarbing....
     
  7.  
    BluJayz

    BluJayz Well-Known Member


    The question still remains, if you decarb visually with bubbles in hot bath. How long / how hot do you bond the oil to the flower before straining it and decarbing in hot bath?
     
  8.  
    poplars

    poplars Well-Known Member

    I just follow skunk pharms oil extraction, 4 hour double boiler cycles, total of 12-14 hours total cook time to be sure you get it all.
     
  9.  
    BluJayz

    BluJayz Well-Known Member

    I made two oils last batch and had them tested.

    Batch one I baked the flower at 300F for 7 min or so. Threw it into a crock pot for 18 hours then strained it through a cheese cloth.
    Here are the results.
    View attachment 2692085

    Second batch I threw in the crock pot for 18 hours. Strained it in a cheese cloth then put in double boiler for about 27 min while watching the bubbles until they completely stopped.
    Here are the results.
    elkements.png

    Both came out quite well, I believe that because I waited for all the bubbles to stop I ended up transforming CBD & CBN's at a faster rate and ended up with a little less THC.

    I believe both methods produced similar effects.
     
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  10.  
    Gamberro

    Gamberro Well-Known Member

    Awesome, thanks for sharing Blu!
     
  11.  
    Gamberro

    Gamberro Well-Known Member

    BluJay, did you use the same sample of cannabis for both tests? I ask because of the CBD content, I always assumed there was a difference in CBD content in edibles but never saw a demonstrated difference between the two extraction techniques.
     
  12.  
    Mujahideen

    Mujahideen New Member

    Just wanted to say, awesome thread! Y'all have inspired me to read deeper into the "scientific" side of marijuana. I came here to find a rough temp for THC bonding to fat.
    Here I am, 2 hours later, 7 tabs opened and feeling a little boggled with what i've turned up. Who would have known that CBD and CBN ..... exist in this plant, and all contain different medical properties:shock:. I am very happy and thankful to have stumbled across this post before beginning. I now have a lot more homework to get back to, I have a feeling all be rewarded for my time:-P.

    Thanks again - Muja
     
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  13.  
    BluJayz

    BluJayz Well-Known Member

    Both were "similar" samples of flower. The exact mixture is not known, I keep the "fall off" of all buds in the dispensary and those went into the samples.

    So they are of similar mix but not exact.

    In recent trials, I have been able to raise the THC and CBD even more with the same type sample. (CBN went down)
    newest test.jpg
     
  14.  
    george xxx

    george xxx Active Member


    Have you, or anyone, tried coconut oil processed in this manner as a finished product?
    I mean Coconut Oil as the edible to be consumed without any further cooking or adding to baked goods.
    I know using the oil for baking or cooking is rather simple but edibles are sometimes difficult with a feeding tube.
     
  15.  
    Mattydread

    Mattydread New Member

    I'm very interested in learning more about minimum temperatures for cooking to decarb cannabis oil. I am aware that decarboxylation happens, very slowly, at room temperature. And for rapid decarboxylation 215F seems about right, though other sources claim slightly higher temps are more optimal (106C/228F seems the most touted temps, with many people claiming higher temps upto a max of 140c/284F).

    The reason I ask is that I was making cannabis oil for my dying fathers terminal cancer, using a rice cooker to boil off Solvent (99.9% Isopropyl alcohol was what I used, which boils at 82.4C/180F) for 4 months believing the rice cooker process was sufficient for decarboxylation. It was psychoactive to eat direct from rice cooker, and I did heat it further using bowls of boiling water to evaporate remaining traces of solvent. But after 4 months it was suggested that decarboxylation may have been incomplete and I was advised to place oil in oven for hour at 110C/230F to make sure decarboxylation was 100% and oil was it's most potent.

    What I am desperate to know is, what level of decarboxylation was likely achieved by the rice cooker stage? Does anyone know how long 20 grams of cannabis oil would take to fully decarb at temps as low as 82.4C/180F? Or how much decarboxylation is likely to have been achieved from the rice cooker stage, bearing in mind that it usually took about 3 hours to boil off solvent, with the last of it spending about an hour in the rice cooker at this stage.

    I understand now how to achieve full decarboxylation, and hence maximise potency, but am desperate to gage, best i can, how potent oil was direct from rice cooker. Please, if anyone can help answer these questions, I would be grateful.
     
  16.  
    HeatlessBBQ

    HeatlessBBQ Well-Known Member

    Thank You for this thread. + rep
     
  17.  
    JointOperation

    JointOperation Well-Known Member

    I use 250F until bubbles stop.. .. also.. I eat my edible chocolates with a cup of hot coffee.. seems to really hit you harder.. faster.. and better absorbtion rate all together.
     
  18.  
    HeatlessBBQ

    HeatlessBBQ Well-Known Member

  19.  
    HeatlessBBQ

    HeatlessBBQ Well-Known Member

    Decarboxylation temp is between 150*F - 245*F ~~~
    Prime decarb temp = 240*F for 1 hour in airtight jar
    [any higher the thca / thc will vaporize and You will lose potency.]
    Lower temp = longer time
    Higher temp = shorter time

    THC vaporization / thc loss temperature is 320*F

     
  20.  
    HeatlessBBQ

    HeatlessBBQ Well-Known Member

    Have been experimenting...

    H20 boils at 212F
    Coconut Oil burns (Smokes) at 280F (best oil to use)
    THC boils off at 392F
    at 222F decarboxylation becomes rapid so 28 minutes is more than enough
    212F for several hours turn THC to CBN <----------
    212F for 90min will strip the carboxyl of THC------^
    Soy Lecithin added to your oil makes the THC absorb in your system better/faster
    chlorophyll and Terpenes are H20 soluble


    Decarboxylate Temp = 240 Degrees F for 28 minutes <----------------
    THC LOSS CAN EVEN HAPPEN AT 210+ DEGREES F FOR OVER A FEW HOURS
    especially in over / crockpot / stove top
     

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