go go kid
Well-Known Member
its cool. that was 25 yrs ago, weve had sheep on there for some time now, so plenty of nitrogen in the soil now. its 3 1/2 acres at least, thats a ton of fish blood n bone lol
The capabilities of a simple soil (Outdoor 2023 edition)
- Thread starter kratos015
- Start date
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Damn dude, why don't you have a journal going? From the sounds of it, there is so much that I, and many others can learn from what you're doing on your land! That is beyond awesome! I'm hoping to get this land on a similar level as yours is, specifically the ponds, bees, and livestock. Thanks a ton for your response, and all the best!
Good to know. Fortunately, I pee in bottles and dilute it with water when I fertilize a majority of my plants. Free nitrogen. Not only that, but this is why I am letting the various weeds and wildlife grow and run rampant. I simply uproot the weeds and wildlife, and place them on top of my plants as a "top dress" and cover them with mulch. The plants and mulch will decompose over time, and provide me with plenty of nitrogen as well. That, and urine, like I stated prior. Why waste potable water to flush urine down the drain when I can use it to fertilize my plants? Has worked amazing for me thus far. Though I will incorporate Blood Meal into the mix once I get livestock going, but for now, I have to get the garden up and running first.
Appreciate your response to my thread, as well as your wisdom concerning strawberries being nitrogen robbers.
Regards.
MICHI-CAN
Well-Known Member
Urine contains urea or ureic acid. Purist call it synthetic.?? LOL. I get your premise. Not as devout a disciple. Best wishes and green.
weedstoner420
Well-Known Member
Beautiful spot you've got there! Looks like you're about to be living the dream...
Any paw paws in those woods?
Any paw paws in those woods?
go go kid
Well-Known Member
you should try nettle juice, you just put a whole bunch of nettles in a bucket or contractors paint bucket thats been disgarded, then place a stone on them and just wait
Making a nettle feed (video guide) | BBC Gardeners World Magazine
Turn garden stinging nettles into nitrogen-rich liquid plant food, by following Rachel de Thame's short video guide. From BBC Gardeners' World Magazine.
www.gardenersworld.com
im going to try pulling some up roots n all and making a tea with some of the soil underneath, should be packed with N/P/K and trace eliments.
im going to do a side by side with compost from the heap and see which one works best.
i also want to filter it, mix with some comfrey liquid and some seaweed solution, and try an out door hydro kratkey style. now that should be interesting
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Actually got some stinging nettle sprouts going but appreciate the suggestion. Need to get some comfrey plants going too, now that you mention it. Went ahead and ordered some of those just now.
Can't believe I didn't mention either Comfrey or Nettle for making compost in the desert. Both grow very well out there, especially the Comfrey and how invasive it is. In another year or two, the Comfrey will provide one with more green matter for compost than they can handle.
Appreciate the reminder!
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Appreciate the kind words man, thanks! I'm not certain if there are paw paws in the woods just yet, but I'll find out what grows natively out here as the year goes on. My wife did plant a couple of paw paw trees a few months ago, they're barely a foot tall and haven't done anything yet. Hopefully they weren't planted too deep, but we'll figure it out as time goes on.
The previous owner of the house (my Dad, who still lives with us) mowed the yard constantly, so it isn't exactly known what grows in the wild here just yet. There is a pretty decent sized patch of wild Elderberry bushes that I just discovered, so that should get interesting come late summer/early fall. The yard is completely littered with ramps as well.
Thanks for stopping in!
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Just two of the 140+ tomatoes that I've planted, they appear to be taking well to transplant as expected.
As is typical, I don't expect to see all too much growth until around May once the roots have spread a little more. Once that happens though, I anticipate some pretty explosive growth based on how well the native plants do out here.
The photos above are the 3ft tall Peach trees we ordered and planted in early February. A coworker of mine told me that Peaches and Figs explode out here, from the looks of it he certainly wasn't joking.
Above are the 3ft tall Golden Delicious and Pink Lady apple trees. The Pink Lady is doing awesome. The Golden Delicious is simply taking its time. Has a little bit of growth, but not as much as the Pink Lady. All things in time. The Golden Delicious is said to be the perfect cross-pollinator for a majority of Apple types, so they're planted side by side. They're planted rather close together, but this is because they are dwarf trees and will only get to about 10-15ft tall.
All throughout the yard there are around a dozen Apple sprouts that are poking through. Once they grow big enough, we will be grafting those Apple plants with some of the branches from the plants pictured above. Going to be a full-blown orchard back here in the next handful of years if all goes according to plan.
And finally, we have 2 of the Blueberry bushes that were planted back in early February that are doing absolutely amazing. According to the TyTy website, these are supposed to produce a harvest the same year they're planted. It will be a smaller harvest, of course, but definitely better than nothing.
I will be conducting a little experiment with Blueberries to demonstrate the power of the microbes, and allowing them to be in control of things, and not us. The reason living soil grows thrive is due to the perfect unison of the plants and microbes communicating and coexisting with one another. The only thing we should be doing is starting the symbiosis, facilitating it, then leaving it the fuck alone.
The Blueberry experiment thesis
As some of you likely already know, blueberries require a 4.0-5.0 pH range to grow and thrive. That same pH range spells death for the vast majority of plants. It is difficult to see from the photos, but next to all of my blueberry plants are various types of tomatoes and strawberries. I will even be planting various types of pepper plants next to them.
Without microbes dictating the flow of things, this would spell certain death for the tomato, pepper, and strawberry plants nearby. Based on both research and personal experience, I aim to demonstrate that the microbes and plant roots have so much control over things, that I will do absolutely nothing to intervene, and all of the plants will grow and thrive together in unison.
Why do I believe this?
Because the more than man intervenes with the already perfect system for plants that has been set in place, the more issues that arise. Let the microbes and plants do their own thing and leave it alone. The more we as humans do to "help", the more issues we cause with the plant and microbes' environment, causing chaos instead of order.
The way a living soil works is the roots communicate the plant's various needs to the microbes, bugs, and other critters involved in the soil web. The roots will exude "signals" and the soil web will respond in kind.
The root signals in rhizospheric inter-organismal communications
and
Signal interactions between roots and microorganisms.
Those are just a handful of studies. Even more fascinating than that though? For fungi, protists, bacteria, and even higher animals, terpenes act as pheromones—chemical signals used by animals. More sources below
Source 2
Source 3
The plants will exude terpenes specific and unique to the plants themselves, which will attract equally specific and unique microbes and bugs to provide the plants with everything they need to flourish. This same phenomenon also works at repelling various forms of life and will result in nature elimination of pests.
So, what does all of the above have to do with the blueberries? If the soil is devoid of excess liming agents, and other inputs used by humans that effect the soil web's environment, and has a neutral pH (7.0), then the roots of the various types of plants will communicate in unison to lower the pH as needed. In this instance, the blueberries.
The tomato, strawberry, and pepper roots will each exude their own unique terpene signals, attracting the specific types of microbes (bacterial dominant) required to maintain a pH of 6.0-7.0 to ensure the plants thrive. Simultaneously, the blueberries will exude their own unique terpene signals that attract the specific types of microbes they need (fungi dominant) to thrive. Fungi do best in more acidic environments (4.0-6.0), where as bacteria do best between a 6.0-7.0 pH range.
Now, I could provide human intervention, constantly top dressing the blueberries with peat moss and elemental sulfur to lower the pH by my own means. I could also sit and stress about whether my soil should be 'bacterial' or 'fungal' dominant and worry about which is best for the plants. But this would affect the land around the berries! Or I can do nothing, and let the plants and microbes do everything.
By doing this, the rhizosphere of the blueberry bushes will be the required 4.0-5.0 pH range in a fungal dominant environment and the rhizosphere of any of the other plants will be their required pH ranges.
I will be posting and demonstrating the results of this experiment over the rest of the year until Winter. I have tomatoes, strawberries, and peppers planted all throughout the yard away from the blueberry bushes. The plants away from the berry bushes will be my "control" plants, the ones next to the berry plants will be the "experiment" plants.
I will provide monthly photos of the control and experiment plants. If the speculation from my research and experiences are true, there will be little to no difference in the control and experiment plants. If I am wrong, the experiment plants will have diminished yields, or outright die. I believe this will be a success, as my experiences with living soil through the last 11+ years of my life give me faith in the natural system of things that has been set in place, and all we need to do is tap into it and leave it alone.
When I started with living soil back in 2012, I used a laundry list of products, loads of compost tea, EM-1 inoculants, and all that good stuff. I began with Subcool's (RIP) recipe. I have nothing but respect for him, however Subcool would always mention he never knew why the soil worked, only that it worked. I spent many years researching, experimenting, and experiencing things attempting to figure out how and why a living soil works. With every year that passed, I used less and less products, and interfered less and less with the plants. Now, 11 years later, the only things I have purchased for my garden this year are TM-7 and VAM mycorrhizae. I have yet to open the bag of TM-7, but have it if I need it.
I am blessed with so much rainfall, that I haven't watered a single plant this year. I literally have done nothing after I transplant this year. Outside of pruning, trellising, and so forth, I will continue to do nothing.
Depending on how much rain we get throughout the year, I doubt I'll even have to break out the hose at this rate. And that ignores the creek, and all of the water I have underground.
Thanks for reading!
As is typical, I don't expect to see all too much growth until around May once the roots have spread a little more. Once that happens though, I anticipate some pretty explosive growth based on how well the native plants do out here.
The photos above are the 3ft tall Peach trees we ordered and planted in early February. A coworker of mine told me that Peaches and Figs explode out here, from the looks of it he certainly wasn't joking.
Above are the 3ft tall Golden Delicious and Pink Lady apple trees. The Pink Lady is doing awesome. The Golden Delicious is simply taking its time. Has a little bit of growth, but not as much as the Pink Lady. All things in time. The Golden Delicious is said to be the perfect cross-pollinator for a majority of Apple types, so they're planted side by side. They're planted rather close together, but this is because they are dwarf trees and will only get to about 10-15ft tall.
All throughout the yard there are around a dozen Apple sprouts that are poking through. Once they grow big enough, we will be grafting those Apple plants with some of the branches from the plants pictured above. Going to be a full-blown orchard back here in the next handful of years if all goes according to plan.
And finally, we have 2 of the Blueberry bushes that were planted back in early February that are doing absolutely amazing. According to the TyTy website, these are supposed to produce a harvest the same year they're planted. It will be a smaller harvest, of course, but definitely better than nothing.
I will be conducting a little experiment with Blueberries to demonstrate the power of the microbes, and allowing them to be in control of things, and not us. The reason living soil grows thrive is due to the perfect unison of the plants and microbes communicating and coexisting with one another. The only thing we should be doing is starting the symbiosis, facilitating it, then leaving it the fuck alone.
The Blueberry experiment thesis
As some of you likely already know, blueberries require a 4.0-5.0 pH range to grow and thrive. That same pH range spells death for the vast majority of plants. It is difficult to see from the photos, but next to all of my blueberry plants are various types of tomatoes and strawberries. I will even be planting various types of pepper plants next to them.
Without microbes dictating the flow of things, this would spell certain death for the tomato, pepper, and strawberry plants nearby. Based on both research and personal experience, I aim to demonstrate that the microbes and plant roots have so much control over things, that I will do absolutely nothing to intervene, and all of the plants will grow and thrive together in unison.
Why do I believe this?
Because the more than man intervenes with the already perfect system for plants that has been set in place, the more issues that arise. Let the microbes and plants do their own thing and leave it alone. The more we as humans do to "help", the more issues we cause with the plant and microbes' environment, causing chaos instead of order.
The way a living soil works is the roots communicate the plant's various needs to the microbes, bugs, and other critters involved in the soil web. The roots will exude "signals" and the soil web will respond in kind.
The root signals in rhizospheric inter-organismal communications
and
Signal interactions between roots and microorganisms.
Those are just a handful of studies. Even more fascinating than that though? For fungi, protists, bacteria, and even higher animals, terpenes act as pheromones—chemical signals used by animals. More sources below
Source 2
Source 3
The plants will exude terpenes specific and unique to the plants themselves, which will attract equally specific and unique microbes and bugs to provide the plants with everything they need to flourish. This same phenomenon also works at repelling various forms of life and will result in nature elimination of pests.
So, what does all of the above have to do with the blueberries? If the soil is devoid of excess liming agents, and other inputs used by humans that effect the soil web's environment, and has a neutral pH (7.0), then the roots of the various types of plants will communicate in unison to lower the pH as needed. In this instance, the blueberries.
The tomato, strawberry, and pepper roots will each exude their own unique terpene signals, attracting the specific types of microbes (bacterial dominant) required to maintain a pH of 6.0-7.0 to ensure the plants thrive. Simultaneously, the blueberries will exude their own unique terpene signals that attract the specific types of microbes they need (fungi dominant) to thrive. Fungi do best in more acidic environments (4.0-6.0), where as bacteria do best between a 6.0-7.0 pH range.
Now, I could provide human intervention, constantly top dressing the blueberries with peat moss and elemental sulfur to lower the pH by my own means. I could also sit and stress about whether my soil should be 'bacterial' or 'fungal' dominant and worry about which is best for the plants. But this would affect the land around the berries! Or I can do nothing, and let the plants and microbes do everything.
By doing this, the rhizosphere of the blueberry bushes will be the required 4.0-5.0 pH range in a fungal dominant environment and the rhizosphere of any of the other plants will be their required pH ranges.
I will be posting and demonstrating the results of this experiment over the rest of the year until Winter. I have tomatoes, strawberries, and peppers planted all throughout the yard away from the blueberry bushes. The plants away from the berry bushes will be my "control" plants, the ones next to the berry plants will be the "experiment" plants.
I will provide monthly photos of the control and experiment plants. If the speculation from my research and experiences are true, there will be little to no difference in the control and experiment plants. If I am wrong, the experiment plants will have diminished yields, or outright die. I believe this will be a success, as my experiences with living soil through the last 11+ years of my life give me faith in the natural system of things that has been set in place, and all we need to do is tap into it and leave it alone.
When I started with living soil back in 2012, I used a laundry list of products, loads of compost tea, EM-1 inoculants, and all that good stuff. I began with Subcool's (RIP) recipe. I have nothing but respect for him, however Subcool would always mention he never knew why the soil worked, only that it worked. I spent many years researching, experimenting, and experiencing things attempting to figure out how and why a living soil works. With every year that passed, I used less and less products, and interfered less and less with the plants. Now, 11 years later, the only things I have purchased for my garden this year are TM-7 and VAM mycorrhizae. I have yet to open the bag of TM-7, but have it if I need it.
I am blessed with so much rainfall, that I haven't watered a single plant this year. I literally have done nothing after I transplant this year. Outside of pruning, trellising, and so forth, I will continue to do nothing.
Depending on how much rain we get throughout the year, I doubt I'll even have to break out the hose at this rate. And that ignores the creek, and all of the water I have underground.
Thanks for reading!
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Speaking of the water I have underground on the property I was talking about, check out this sinkhole I found while transplanting a couple days ago!
That water was flowing downhill into the creek, and this hole is about 15ft away from said creek. This was taken 1.5 days after the rain. With this much water underground, combined with my mulch, I wonder if I'll ever have to water anything this year. Especially since now, we know that roots share water with other plants as needed via their roots. The entire ground is covered by various plants, trees, weeds, and grass, all of which have root masses that will likely share water with one another to keep the entire ecosystem in the backyard alive and thriving.
Not only that, but check out what happened when I attempted to dig a hole to plant the 7ft tall Peach tree into about 30 feet away from the creek.
Once I got about 5 feet deep from digging, I was met with loads of rocks. When I dug out the rocks, water started pooling into the hole. Within 10 minutes, half of the hole was full of water. Should this be a recurring thing, it is very unlikely I will need to water this year. Now I'm brainstorming about how I can dig a well out here, but one project at a time.
I took a couple photos of what the creek looked like after it rained for half the day.
During periods of heavy rainfall, the creek can even overflow. Just look at how green and happy everything is around the creek.
While I respect that not everyone has the land and environment that I do, the point I make of this thread is that with enough work, anyone can have this in their backyard. My journal from last year demonstrated what was possible in the 100-130F heat of the Arizona desert. It may take a few years, but anyone can have this in their backyard. It all starts with planting, anything, and compost.
I post this not to show off, but to condense my years of experience into a single thread that will hopefully show that anyone can have a backyard like this. Even if you don't have a creek, or cannot make one in your backyard, there is likely still water deep below the surface of the ground that plants can eventually access. Roots always find water. No exceptions.
The first step is to begin planting any trees or plants that will survive in your backyard with little to no assistance. Then, once the trees and plants are thriving, begin planting other types of plants and trees. Eventually, things will spread and compound, and within a few years, your backyard can look this green, lively, and happy.
I'm off to finish planting strawberries and do a walk of the property. Later on tonight, I'll make an attempt to post all the different kinds of things I transplanted into the ground in these past few months.
Thanks for tuning in.
That water was flowing downhill into the creek, and this hole is about 15ft away from said creek. This was taken 1.5 days after the rain. With this much water underground, combined with my mulch, I wonder if I'll ever have to water anything this year. Especially since now, we know that roots share water with other plants as needed via their roots. The entire ground is covered by various plants, trees, weeds, and grass, all of which have root masses that will likely share water with one another to keep the entire ecosystem in the backyard alive and thriving.
Not only that, but check out what happened when I attempted to dig a hole to plant the 7ft tall Peach tree into about 30 feet away from the creek.
Once I got about 5 feet deep from digging, I was met with loads of rocks. When I dug out the rocks, water started pooling into the hole. Within 10 minutes, half of the hole was full of water. Should this be a recurring thing, it is very unlikely I will need to water this year. Now I'm brainstorming about how I can dig a well out here, but one project at a time.
I took a couple photos of what the creek looked like after it rained for half the day.
During periods of heavy rainfall, the creek can even overflow. Just look at how green and happy everything is around the creek.
While I respect that not everyone has the land and environment that I do, the point I make of this thread is that with enough work, anyone can have this in their backyard. My journal from last year demonstrated what was possible in the 100-130F heat of the Arizona desert. It may take a few years, but anyone can have this in their backyard. It all starts with planting, anything, and compost.
I post this not to show off, but to condense my years of experience into a single thread that will hopefully show that anyone can have a backyard like this. Even if you don't have a creek, or cannot make one in your backyard, there is likely still water deep below the surface of the ground that plants can eventually access. Roots always find water. No exceptions.
The first step is to begin planting any trees or plants that will survive in your backyard with little to no assistance. Then, once the trees and plants are thriving, begin planting other types of plants and trees. Eventually, things will spread and compound, and within a few years, your backyard can look this green, lively, and happy.
I'm off to finish planting strawberries and do a walk of the property. Later on tonight, I'll make an attempt to post all the different kinds of things I transplanted into the ground in these past few months.
Thanks for tuning in.
PadawanWarrior
Well-Known Member
How do you apply the TM-7 when you use it? Diluted in water or topdressed? I've done it both ways but don't know if it matters much.
weedstoner420
Well-Known Member
Heck yeah, I'll be following along to see the progress!
Curious to see how the blueberry experiment turns out. My parents had a blueberry patch when I was growing up that seemed to do fine without any special treatment (in mid-Atlantic sandy soil). But my wife planted a few in our backyard which is very heavy clay soil, and they started getting chlorosis the second year. We had to add sulfur to that area of the garden to lower the pH and get them back on track.
I wonder if the soil makeup (sandy vs clay) has something to do with it, or if they can tolerate a wider pH range in sandy soil. The areas they grow wild are basically rock piles with little to no proper "soil" at all...
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Appreciate the kind words, and it is no trouble at all. I'm always learning every day and am nothing special. That is a great question that could end up helping others in the future. To answer the question in a "tl;dr" fashion, I do not believe I will need to add much, if any extra nutrition in the foreseeable future. Context is below, for anyone interested.
So, will I need to add extra nutes, and how will I know if it becomes necessary or not?
I don't believe so.
The reason being due to how "fertile" the land is; all of the worms and microbes in the ground that are constantly processing decaying materials both above and below the surface. Any plant that is alive will send terpene signals via its roots telling the worms, microbes, bugs, and so forth exactly what it needs. N, P, K, Mg, whatever the plant asks for, there will be some microorganism and/or bug that eats something, goes near the plant, and defecates nutrients near the plant's root zone that are readily and immediately available.
Not only does the ground itself already have loads of nutrients within it, but these nutrients are constantly being replenished as a result of all of the leaves, branches, and the like falling onto the ground during the fall, and decomposing through the winter, "recharging" the land just before spring hits. Anything that dies and decomposes onto the land ends up returning all of the nutrients within it back into the land, everything from microbes to large animals, and everything in between.
As the trees and plants I put in the ground continue to grow; their leaves, branches, and unharvested fruits, will also fall into the ground, decomposing into nutrients that will bond to the ground and be accessible to any living plant with roots within the near vicinity. Bugs and microbes are capable of travelling pretty long distances to procure nutrients that any given plant is signaling for. The plants will, in turn, reward said bugs and/or microbes with sugars it secretes from its roots.
But what if my land isn't fertile enough, and I don't have this closed loop system with a steady and readily available supply of nutrients?
This is the purpose of top dressing with nutrients. The point of top dressing with nutrients is not to do so every grow cycle, but rather only until one has enough decaying organic matter to eliminate the need for said amendments entirely.
It will take work, but it entirely possible to create one's own closed loop system with said readily available supply of nutrients. I'm sure you've seen people on here with their raised bed grows, filled with mulch and all the leaves from the pot plants they're growing that fall or get trimmed off. Many of them rarely "top dress" with amendments, instead placing any plant matter on top of the beds and waiting for them to decompose to fertilize the bed.
If you live somewhere like the desert and are starting a new grow, you need an outside source of organic matter, typically the amendments you see on various soil recipes. However, as more plants get grown, and more leaves and branches get saved to decompose, you will have fresh and quality compost that you can top dress with and be able to cut down, and eventually eliminate the need for amendments.
One of the best ways to begin this process is by growing comfrey. Comfrey roots grow 8-10 feet deep, and about 3 feet wide. It can also be quite invasive, growing like a weed. The comfrey will absorb a wide variety of nutrients from the dirt, more than most plants (that do not have roots that deep). One can then harvest the leaves from the comfrey and throw them into a pile to decompose. Bonus points if you throw the comfrey into a worm bin, and use the resulting castings.
kratos015
Well-Known Member
I personally wouldn't top dress with the stuff, personally, as it is extremely powerful stuff. The bag says 1/4-1/3 tsp per gallon of water, and I use that water for tons of different plants instead of just one. A little bit of it goes a long way. It isn't something I used very often in the past, only doing so if I notice micronutrient deficiencies and if I have eliminated pH and other factors out of the equation.
TM-7, like many other organic amendments on the market, should only be viewed and used as a "band-aid" solution rather than something permanent. Think like how people recommend using Epsom salts to "fix" Mg issues. The Epsom salts don't fix Mg issues, simply provide a quick dose of it while one figures out the reason behind the Mg deficiency in the first place. The same applies with TM-7. It is a great product if there are issues with your soil's pH, are experiencing lockout, or have a genuine deficiency you're waiting to be corrected. It works in a pinch, but should only be used long enough to solve the underlying problem causing one to use the TM-7 product in the first place.
All that said, I ordered the stuff 6 weeks ago and still haven't even opened the bag. I'll be sure to post on here if and when I do finally open the bag for transparency purposes. But if I do have to resort to opening the bag, that means my land isn't as fertile as I believed, and I will need to solve whatever issue resulted in me needing to break open the bag of TM-7.
It is also worth noting that these are called micro-nutrients for a reason; we do not need much of them. More often than not, the issue isn't a micro-nutrient deficiency, but rather a pH issue. The TM-7 product simply provides a dose of readily available micro-nutrients straight to the roots while we correct issues with our pH, should they exist.
Humans need micro-nutrients such as copper, zinc, and iron as well, yet we typically do not need to use supplements for these nutrients so long as we have a well-balanced diet. One could take vitamin supplements, or simply eat beef/salmon 1-2 times a week, and snack on almonds as often as possible. Same principle with plants, and any other source of life for that matter.
All the best.
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Sand has a lower Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC, or the capacity to supply nutrients for plant uptake) than clay does, but the interesting thing about that is that clay soils often have more native organic matter within them than sandy soils do.
Clay soils generally have higher CEC values due to their clay content and generally holding more organic matter, whereas sandy soils generally have lower CEC values, where greater leaching of nutrients is expected.
"The CEC of soils varies according to clay content, the type of clay present, soil pH and organic matter content. Pure sand has a very low CEC, less than 2 meq/100 g. Clays such as kaolinite have a CEC of about 10 meq/100 g, while illite and smectite have CECs ranging from 25 to 100 meq/100 g. Organic matter has a very high CEC, ranging from 250 to 400 meq/100 g."
"Soils with higher CECs tend to be higher in clay, have a greater water holding capacity, greater capacity to store and hold cations against leaching, and greater capacity to resist changes to soil pH."
Source for quotes above
and
Soil pH change can also be caused by natural processes such as decomposition of organic matter and leaching of cations.
Some microbes have the ability to alter soil pH by acidifying their surroundings.
Soil pH will decrease more due to crop production on low CEC soils. High CEC soils are generally well buffered such that pH changes much less from crop production.
So, with all of the above in mind, my question would be what the compost source was your parents had in their blueberry patch, and what the compost source you and your wife had in your blueberry patch? Sand has a lower CEC than clay does, allowing for greater pH fluctuations.
Until I get a response to those questions (and I really hope so, at your earliest convenience, due to my curiosity and wanting to make a more educated guess), the following is only speculation based on the information I've just provided.
Your parents had sandy soil, whereas you had clay soil. Let's say neither soil had sufficient amounts of quality nor living compost in them. From the above, we know the following affects pH:
1) Organic matter
2) The cation exchange capacity of the minerals in the soil, in this instance clay or sand.
3) Crop production (plant growth) decreases pH. More in low CEC sandy soils, but generally less (not always, generally) in high CEC soils.
4) Some microbes can alter soil pH by acidifying their surroundings.
The common factor in most of the points above is compost, more specifically, the life within the compost. When I say "proper" compost, I don't mean anything bought from the store, but a consistent source of decaying organic matter that produces the highest quality compost possible that I constantly refer to in my posts.
Without proper compost, and assuming only rainwater as a water source (as in the wild, or plants given no 'special attention'), the sand will grow berries far better than clay will.
Normal, clean rain has a pH value of between 5.0 and 5.5, which is slightly acidic. However, when rain combines with sulfur dioxide or nitrogen oxides—produced from power plants and automobiles—the rain becomes much more acidic. Typical acid rain has a pH value of 4.0.
Furthermore, this doesn't include the leaves and berries falling to the ground, decomposing and creating compost over a period of time. The compost that gets created is entirely dependent on the source of the decaying organic matter. Decaying leaves from a tomato plant will produce different compost (and by proxy, pH, nutrients, and other variables) than that of decaying leaves from a blueberry plant.
Since we know that both individual plants send individual signals to microbes, and we know that different leaves produce different compost, it is entirely reasonable to guestimate that the blueberry plants play a role in cultivating their own "perfect" environment by means of "signaling" to specific microbes (fungi, in their case), as well as the blueberries decaying leaves attracting fungi, and other acidic loving microbes and life.
The difference between each blueberry grows isn't just sand vs clay (which is definitely a variable), but the types of compost involved (and by proxy, the microbes and pH), and also the water source.
While clay naturally has a higher CEC than sand does, organic matter has the highest CEC rate of anything mentioned. But organic matter can be fungal dominant too.
I am extremely curious to know what kinds of compost both you and your parents used.
However, even with your plants experiencing chlorosis, this would not have been a permanent phenomenon. Most forms of life typically fight to live, as opposed to die. So, while the plants may have been "sick" from chlorosis, this is akin to that of a human being sick. We don't often die from sickness, right? In fact, the sickness often results in us coming back stronger as a result of building an immunity.
Without human intervention, the blueberries would have suffered from chlorosis for a while. But in the meantime, those leaves suffering from chlorosis would fall from the plant faster, producing the specific compost it needs that much quicker. Meanwhile, the blueberries would be sending signals to any nearby microbes and the like. The plant would suffer sickness for months, perhaps even the entire year. Until the next spring, when the decaying leaves fully decomposed, the plants signals were heard, and a fungal dominant soil web began to take hold, resulting in the blueberry plant springing back to life all on its own.
I fully respect how insane, and outright crazy that sounds. However, I have seen plants (like humans and other forms of life) spring back to life from the most trying of circumstances.
I've had indoor plants survive 140F temps for 18 hours from my air conditioners popping circuit breakers due to my ignorance at the time. Not only did they survive, but most of them barely looked phased.
I've had various tomatoes and peppers survive the 110-130F summers of the Arizona desert. Sure, they didn't bear fruit until fall (obviously), but they did not die.
I've grown cannabis outdoors in 30-40F weather in the winter. The harvest was 1/4th what it should have been, but the plants did not die. Half of my tomato plants looked 'dead' until spring, when they came back to life producing new leaves.
The point I'm trying to make is that life often wants to live. And in a living soil, it isn't simply the plant's life that is at stake, but the entire soil web attached to the roots of said plant. They all will find a way to live, even if it means suffering under poor conditions for an extended period of time.
Seems pretty metaphorical, now that I think about it.
My apologies for the book, but I hate making bold statements without equally bold citations and facts to back them up. And sometimes that results in a book, haha.
All the best and I appreciate both your response and how much it made me think.
GreenestBasterd
Well-Known Member
Looks like a fantastic move mate, glad your back around online too!
I’ll most certainly be following along.
I’ll most certainly be following along.
go go kid
Well-Known Member
boking 14 you want, there designed to keep growing and spreading without root seperation by man. get some borage too, just use the same as comfrey.
go go kid
Well-Known Member
if you want to take advantage of the streams of water, build a wooden trug above the water level, make sure there are holes for the roots to come out the bottom, and grow your weed in there, the roots will penatrate the holes in your wooden planting boxes ans down into the water, so you get a natural soil and natural hydro process going at the same time. maga plants
weedstoner420
Well-Known Member
Oh yeah, no worries at all about the long reply.
I'm pretty sure my mom didn't do anything to the soil in their blueberry patch other than mulch with plain hardwood mulch. They had a compost pile, but they only used it on the veggie garden, not the berries or shrubs.
My wife and I live in an urban area with a very small backyard. She is all about composting and building up the soil in the garden beds over top of the native soil. So those blueberries get a mix of food scrap/yard waste compost, with dead leaves for mulch.
The other big difference is my parents' blueberries were densely planted and right next to raspberry and blackberry patches, whereas the blueberries in our yard now are kinda by themselves, just 3 little bushes spaced out and mixed with whatever veggies, herbs, and flowers we've got going that year. Definitely a different rhizosphere in the two gardens, in addition to different soils.
Interesting what you mention about the plants kinda sorting it out for themselves. I was just a kid when my parents started the berry garden, so there very well could have been a year or two in the beginning when they didn't do well. And if we hadn't treated ours, maybe they would have turned around on their own. Climate conditions (temp/humidity/sunlight/etc) are one thing, but I'm in agreement with you that plants have some degree of control over the chemical makeup of the soil, and can work with the microbial life to establish a proper pH over time.
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Yup. Got the Russian Boking 14 and that should be here in a few days. Can't wait to get that going again!
I've never heard of a wooden trug before, I'll be sure to do some research about it and take a look. Appreciate the suggestion. Perhaps you have a few links to share that you already know of? Not just to save me time, but to possibly help others in the future should they come across this thread?
Unfortunately, I can't grow weed anymore since I live in Alabama. If I didn't have kids, I'd not give a fuck like I used to many years ago. But for now, I'm content with growing food for all of us. I'm definitely waiting for it to be legal here though, that's for sure. hahah