The far red thread

[end_of_the_tunnel]

Transition to flower, and shaving off time to harvest. Good stuff and a reason for wanting to see and add Fr to our lights.

But asking ourselves what amount of Fr is optimal, as part of an always-on flower spectrum, can be lead to subjective answers. As a collective, we are inspired by visual cues. Environment can vary from grower to grower, and so can bias.

That EB 2700K 90CRI strip undoubtedly will give pleasing results that will satisfy. But looking at Fr %'s is at the peril of ignoring the overall ratios.
Maybe there are other fruitful combinations. What about EB3 4000K 90CRI? It still has higher R/Fr component than the equivalent 80 CRI.

There is so much room for different lights to produce acceptable growth. But if this guy was here today and came and asked what led he should try, as a replacement for his cfl's? Where would we nudge him? Towards the EB 2700 90cri, or perhaps towards the EB 4000 90CRI with a smidgen of 630/660/730? He has height constraints.

**Inside DrBud's Lab every 48 hours W/Pics**

Well ladies and Gentelmen..... It seems several of you are "Concerned" with my Yield/Output. Since I grow under CFL's many think Noob.... Well those who have met me will tell you "Far from It". Now here we go today we will embark on a lil' Journey... We will follow the progress of these 6...

www.icmag.com

 

[hybridway2]

It pertains to the convo because the convo is about far red. That EB strip has 6.8% far red. So how much far red is optimum? What percentage of the whole should be made up by far red?

Oh my bad. Might have thought i was on my thread.
I will check & get back to you asap as to what I'm happy with as a percentage
In the meantime, one thing to consider is that any amounts of bandwidths used should also be determined based on the spectrum as a whole. One amount of n/ir can be optimal in one spectra setting while different in another.
Like how FR extends the stretch & blues repress the stretch to get a balance of synergistic morphology. Several bandwidths in each color.
Remind me tom & ill get you an answer if you are serious.

 

[Kassiopeija]

One amount of n/ir can be optimal in one spectra setting while different in another.
Like how FR extends the stretch & blues repress the stretch to get a balance of synergistic morphology.

so how is the ratio of FR vs blue in order to have a sort of guarantee to not entice stretch when supplementing FR 12h?

 

[Randomblame]

The amount of far-red a strain need varies from strain to strain so one have to figure out the "right" amount of far red with every new strain in your grow area. For this reason I like to have far-red on a separate driver. BUT the 5-6% we get from CRI90+ seems to be a good AIO sulution. Most strains react positively to CRI90, they create bigger leaves, grow higher and allow more light to travel deeper inside the canopy and they finish up to a week earlier without loss in yield. So they must have used the light more effectively somehow, right? This improvement is caused of the emerson effect.

Plants look green because up to 30% of the green part gets reflected. This reflected light travels deeper into the canopy, its not the bit green light you can messure on the bottom side of the leaf. Its more the green light the other leaves have reflected. When light shine thru a leaf most of what you can measure is far red.
I've only limited space and use 5000°k sidelights in form of vertical oriented CRI80 EB strips around my grow area to maximize yield. I"ve at first tested it in my small 3ft² area and the results were always awesome. Dense buds down to the bottom nugs, no larf anymore, much more shoots caused by the blue part hitting the stems directly and over all 10-15% better yield. And I've not used more watts! The mainlight was dimmed down so the power draw of the light was the same as before.
For me sidelight was a revelation and has opened my eyes. The blue part of the 5000°k stripes allows me to communicate with my plants. They like it in the growth stage and in flowering only when stretching you should leave it off for a while. Blue light inhibits stretching very much when it hits the trunk directly and it counteracts against far red. Using both wavelength allows you to force your plants to increase or reduce stretch according to your needs. The truth is, without these cool white sidelights I would not have won the last 2019 party cup contest.

 

[Randomblame]

so how is the ratio of FR vs blue in order to have a sort of guarantee to not entice stretch when supplementing FR 12h?

I believe till now noone has figured out something like the "right ratio FR vs blue". The reason is different species have different needs. Lettuce profit from far red up to 400μMol/s/m² and developes 30-50% bigger leaves. For C. I would use less then 100μMol/s/m², maybe around 50 but this depends on the strain. For a stretchy sativa you want for sure less far red and short indika strain on the other hand maybe needs twice as much to get big enough and fill all the available vertical space.
So the best would be to have a separate far red light, dimmable and able to produce around 100μMol/s/m² if needed. And if you plan to add sidelights as well you can literally control the plant height as you want it. The sidelight can stop the stretch pretty fast and reduce it to a minimum. For this reason I switch it off when switching to the 12/12h rhythm until the plants have almost reached the desired end height. Depending on the strain I switch the sidelights back on between day 15 and 25.

I've added a pdf about far-red and how much it needs to improved photosystem II efficiency as well as leaf surface temperatures.

 

[Axion42]

Wow RB glad to see you back around dude.

 

[Humple]

Oh my bad. Might have thought i was on my thread.
I will check & get back to you asap as to what I'm happy with as a percentage
In the meantime, one thing to consider is that any amounts of bandwidths used should also be determined based on the spectrum as a whole. One amount of n/ir can be optimal in one spectra setting while different in another.
Like how FR extends the stretch & blues repress the stretch to get a balance of synergistic morphology. Several bandwidths in each color.
Remind me tom & ill get you an answer if you are serious.

The first point I'm working towards is that simply saying "white" LEDs are deficient, and that far red should be added, is kind of like adding more seasoning to the soup you're cooking, without actually tasting it. And yes, another point that needs to be addressed is indeed the ratio of far red to other spectra - as @Randomblame has pointed out, the optimum could change depending on the plant you're growing.

Now assuming you actually have answers to those questions, my following inquiries would be: how do you (or Victor) know what is optimum? How has optimum been determined? What are all the biological mechanisms at play which hinge upon the ratio of this or that spectrum, and how do they interact? What measurable deficits are found when growing under "white" light, and how are they diagnosed? If your answer is just that you're growing better plants now than you were before, don't bother. That's not enough to support the assertion that white light causes deficiencies.

 

[SSGrower]

Why does timber still sell reflectors? Why did hlg add red monos to white?
Because that is what they have determined fits their business need. As long as there is demand someone will build it.
Intesity, spectrum, distribution.
IMO cri is more valuable when compareing like to like, phosphor to phosphor, mono to mono. I dont think board level cri is as important as chip level cri and I also dont think it has much relevance when talking monos. All one has to do is grow multistrain to understand there is no one solution.

 

[hybridway2]

The amount of far-red a strain need varies from strain to strain so one have to figure out the "right" amount of far red with every new strain in your grow area. For this reason I like to have far-red on a separate driver. BUT the 5-6% we get from CRI90+ seems to be a good AIO sulution. Most strains react positively to CRI90, they create bigger leaves, grow higher and allow more light to travel deeper inside the canopy and they finish up to a week earlier without loss in yield. So they must have used the light more effectively somehow, right? This improvement is caused of the emerson effect.

Plants look green because up to 30% of the green part gets reflected. This reflected light travels deeper into the canopy, its not the bit green light you can messure on the bottom side of the leaf. Its more the green light the other leaves have reflected. When light shine thru a leaf most of what you can measure is far red.
I've only limited space and use 5000°k sidelights in form of vertical oriented CRI80 EB strips around my grow area to maximize yield. I"ve at first tested it in my small 3ft² area and the results were always awesome. Dense buds down to the bottom nugs, no larf anymore, much more shoots caused by the blue part hitting the stems directly and over all 10-15% better yield. And I've not used more watts! The mainlight was dimmed down so the power draw of the light was the same as before.
For me sidelight was a revelation and has opened my eyes. The blue part of the 5000°k stripes allows me to communicate with my plants. They like it in the growth stage and in flowering only when stretching you should leave it off for a while. Blue light inhibits stretching very much when it hits the trunk directly and it counteracts against far red. Using both wavelength allows you to force your plants to increase or reduce stretch according to your needs. The truth is, without these cool white sidelights I would not have won the last 2019 party cup contest.

I love when you explain everything!
Again, you da man n
- A HUGE MU-FU'n WELCOME BACK RANDOMBLAME!!!! -

 

[welight]

The amount of far-red a strain need varies from strain to strain so one have to figure out the "right" amount of far red with every new strain in your grow area. For this reason I like to have far-red on a separate driver. BUT the 5-6% we get from CRI90+ seems to be a good AIO sulution. Most strains react positively to CRI90, they create bigger leaves, grow higher and allow more light to travel deeper inside the canopy and they finish up to a week earlier without loss in yield. So they must have used the light more effectively somehow, right? This improvement is caused of the emerson effect.

Plants look green because up to 30% of the green part gets reflected. This reflected light travels deeper into the canopy, its not the bit green light you can messure on the bottom side of the leaf. Its more the green light the other leaves have reflected. When light shine thru a leaf most of what you can measure is far red.
I've only limited space and use 5000°k sidelights in form of vertical oriented CRI80 EB strips around my grow area to maximize yield. I"ve at first tested it in my small 3ft² area and the results were always awesome. Dense buds down to the bottom nugs, no larf anymore, much more shoots caused by the blue part hitting the stems directly and over all 10-15% better yield. And I've not used more watts! The mainlight was dimmed down so the power draw of the light was the same as before.
For me sidelight was a revelation and has opened my eyes. The blue part of the 5000°k stripes allows me to communicate with my plants. They like it in the growth stage and in flowering only when stretching you should leave it off for a while. Blue light inhibits stretching very much when it hits the trunk directly and it counteracts against far red. Using both wavelength allows you to force your plants to increase or reduce stretch according to your needs. The truth is, without these cool white sidelights I would not have won the last 2019 party cup contest.

good to see you back my man, I have to say I think your on the money, we have set up linear bars at the office with Optisolis 5k and Cree Far Reds on chillis, tomatoes and it has been every interesting to watch the stretch and no stretch, based on different photo periods of both colours. Leaf penetration of far red is a really interesting subject matter. Side lighting NO Doubt increases yields
Cheers

 

[PJ Diaz]

It's insane how cheap far red monos on star PCBs are right now. 85¢ a piece?! It's too cheap to not add them if you haven't

Yeah, I was looking into that and wanting to build a 18w far red initiator, but after costing it out the LEDs, drive, and heatsink are $30 plus $20 for shipping, then I have to solder and assemble everything. Meanwhile I can get the screw in HLG far red 15w lamp for under $50 shipped, all done.

 

[hybridway2]

I believe till now noone has figured out something like the "right ratio FR vs blue". The reason is different species have different needs. Lettuce profit from far red up to 400μMol/s/m² and developes 30-50% bigger leaves. For C. I would use less then 100μMol/s/m², maybe around 50 but this depends on the strain. For a stretchy sativa you want for sure less far red and short indika strain on the other hand maybe needs twice as much to get big enough and fill all the available vertical space.
So the best would be to have a separate far red light, dimmable and able to produce around 100μMol/s/m² if needed. And if you plan to add sidelights as well you can literally control the plant height as you want it. The sidelight can stop the stretch pretty fast and reduce it to a minimum. For this reason I switch it off when switching to the 12/12h rhythm until the plants have almost reached the desired end height. Depending on the strain I switch the sidelights back on between day 15 and 25.

I've added a pdf about far-red and how much it needs to improved photosystem II efficiency as well as leaf surface temperatures.

They'll read your links but not mine so pls keep the knowledge flowing . We're all Blessed to have you back here man. You don't even know. : )

 

[hybridway2]

The first point I'm working towards is that simply saying "white" LEDs are deficient, and that far red should be added, is kind of like adding more seasoning to the soup you're cooking, without actually tasting it. And yes, another point that needs to be addressed is indeed the ratio of far red to other spectra - as @Randomblame has pointed out, the optimum could change depending on the plant you're growing.

Now assuming you actually have answers to those questions, my following inquiries would be: how do you (or Victor) know what is optimum? How has optimum been determined? What are all the biological mechanisms at play which hinge upon the ratio of this or that spectrum, and how do they interact? What measurable deficits are found when growing under "white" light, and how are they diagnosed? If your answer is just that you're growing better plants now than you were before, don't bother. That's not enough to support the assertion that white light causes deficiencies.

Good Questions!
Could you please Take this exact question to my thread & i will be happy to answer it to the best of my ability based on the info. I have acquired & or used.

 

[hybridway2]

Why does timber still sell reflectors? Why did hlg add red monos to white?
Because that is what they have determined fits their business need. As long as there is demand someone will build it.
Intesity, spectrum, distribution.
IMO cri is more valuable when compareing like to like, phosphor to phosphor, mono to mono. I dont think board level cri is as important as chip level cri and I also dont think it has much relevance when talking monos. All one has to do is grow multistrain to understand there is no one solution.

See, that's where i both agree & disagree.
I do believe there is a spectra available that will grow everything nicely. Even other crops but we'll focus on multi-straining Canna here.
Unless teir style growing i feel there is one spectrum that will give you the most out of all your strains or at least a very Happy Averaging. And x6-x8 that can be tailored to a person's room or grow style. All of which include the necessary fuller spectrum, just in different amounts in places.
CRI i feel is irrelevant unless one is discussing a known spectrum on a graph they can see. Or when discussing todays high cri white leds. Aside from that its not telling you much about your Horticultural Spectrum except that it is fuller then the 70+80 cri' whites by a little. Yes, new tech will change that. Tekniks work for example.
I agree, they will sell whatever is in demand regardless.
Any small amount of far red (730) over 5%+ will show you benefits.
I feel the plants use up to 780 efficiently & go up to 850 beneficially after reading studies i have posted links too.

 

[Warpedpassage]

Id love to know how the 5% worked out for you. Very nice job on the build, looks professional.

10% far red was frying some leaf at least at the height I run my light it was. So I slapped a newer XLG-25-AB on the light replacing the non dimmable lpc series driver. For sure going to have to add a PWM module for dimming the far red channel after this run like the other two drivers add a switch to the pot for redundancy. Going to try 12/12 with the far red @ 5% and see what happens. View attachment 4449173View attachment 4449174View attachment 4449176View attachment 4449177

 

[SSGrower]

See, that's where i both agree & disagree.
I do believe there is a spectra available that will grow everything nicely. Even other crops but we'll focus on multi-straining Canna here.
Unless teir style growing i feel there is one spectrum that will give you the most out of all your strains or at least a very Happy Averaging. And x6-x8 that can be tailored to a person's room or grow style. All of which include the necessary fuller spectrum, just in different amounts in places.
CRI i feel is irrelevant unless one is discussing a known spectrum on a graph they can see. Or when discussing todays high cri white leds. Aside from that its not telling you much about your Horticultural Spectrum except that it is fuller then the 70+80 cri' whites by a little. Yes, new tech will change that. Tekniks work for example.
I agree, they will sell whatever is in demand regardless.
Any small amount of far red (730) over 5%+ will show you benefits.
I feel the plants use up to 780 efficiently & go up to 850 beneficially after reading studies i have posted links too.

We agree about 100%, sunlight is the best but is still a compromise.

Style of growing is irrelevant to discussions of best spectrum it may require different targets for ppfd and whatnot but beyond the specific varietal and to a broader extent species needs for a particular spectrum growing style is pretty well irrelivant.

Funny you just went soil and I just went hydro tho.

 

[hybridway2]

We agree about 100%, sunlight is the best but is still a compromise.

Style of growing is irrelevant to discussions of best spectrum it may require different targets for ppfd and whatnot but beyond the specific varietal and to a broader extent species needs for a particular spectrum growing style is pretty well irrelivant.

Funny you just went soil and I just went hydro tho.

Im sorry, i just accidentally erased my reply. Gosh Dammit. Ugh!!! ; (
ADDED:
Yes. The Sun was the initial Starting point to replicate as close as possible while still being electrically efficient enough to be a competitive led fixture that saves wattage.
The SE-350-500 w/UVB was/is a nice example. The Equetorial Spectrum put a great effort into this for the times. Still even.
The Canna-Spec is pretty damn efficient at both veg + bloom so i do believe in an all in one spectrum. Still need to try the Red-Domminent Solar-Spec (C) to say it can flower any better then the all in one Canna-Spec. After speaking to a man that uses about every Premium led on the mkt (Nelson from "Poetry of Plants) He told me he Preferred the Solar-Spec (C) just a little bit over the Canna-Spec in flower. I was surprised but he uses both n i only have one.
Although the real Game-Changer almost happened but Victor pulled out last minute to achieve the dual Bar-3 option when using the Bar-6 LUV.
That would have been epic.
Anyway's, yeah, use Far Red. Always n forever!!!!! Oh, except for cloning & seeding.

 

[PJ Diaz]

I decided the buy one of these 15w Far Red Initiator Bulbs from HLG:

Flowering Initiator Far Red Bulb

HLG SABER High efficiency waterproof Full Spectrum LED BAR. Each Bar can be powered up to 120 watts. Passive cooled 36V design and 4ft length provides a great spread with minimal shadows. Does not include power supply.

horticulturelightinggroup.com

I thought about building my own, but after pricing everything out including diodes, driver, cheap sink, and shipping it was more than the HLG bulb, and with the HLG one I don't have to solder anything, just plug and play.

Now I'm trying to decide on timing to run it. I bought it for the flower initiator part, but also thinking about emerson effect. The thing is, this is what HLG says about running it with lights on:

RECOMMENDED USAGE
Power on for 3 to 10 minutes when Lights Off (Dark Period begins).

Use during lights on is not recommend as it can cause stretching.

I'm thinking maybe I would run it for a few hours during the day, but not all day? Maybe for 3 hrs each at the start/end of flowering cycle? Or would it be better to run it in the middle of the day when I run UVB (I do 10-15 minute bursts then 45-50 off each hour for 5 hours in the middle of the day)?

 

[SSGrower]

Im sorry, i just accidentally erased my reply. Gosh Dammit. Ugh!!! ; (

I f'n hate that. Lmfao.

 

[SSGrower]

I decided the buy one of these 15w Far Red Initiator Bulbs from HLG:

Flowering Initiator Far Red Bulb

HLG SABER High efficiency waterproof Full Spectrum LED BAR. Each Bar can be powered up to 120 watts. Passive cooled 36V design and 4ft length provides a great spread with minimal shadows. Does not include power supply.

horticulturelightinggroup.com

I thought about building my own, but after pricing everything out including diodes, driver, cheap sink, and shipping it was more than the HLG bulb, and with the HLG one I don't have to solder anything, just plug and play.

Now I'm trying to decide on timing to run it. I bought it for the flower initiator part, but also thinking about emerson effect. The thing is, this is what HLG says about running it with lights on:

RECOMMENDED USAGE
Power on for 3 to 10 minutes when Lights Off (Dark Period begins).

Use during lights on is not recommend as it can cause stretching.

I'm thinking maybe I would run it for a few hours during the day, but not all day? Maybe for 3 hrs each at the start/end of flowering cycle? Or would it be better to run it in the middle of the day when I run UVB (I do 10-15 minute bursts then 45-50 off each hour for 5 hours in the middle of the day)?

This exact statement is what leads me to believe the general consensus does not have it exactly right. Is it good enough to work? Yes. IMO what is point of adding the infrastructure to for red/fr, uv why not use it for a greater portion of the day. Adverse effect would be the indication of too many watts, too many photons.
UV is also adsorbed/used by the red/far red receptors and balancing the nm imo can result in similar inpacts to using fr at bod/eod.
Not harshing on ya pj just trying to express my point.
Thankfully @Randomblame is back in the discussion.