Theory Testing of Styles

Canon · Feb 3, 2011

MarcusTweed said:
Cannon, you can more engourage inner growth imply lowering the lamp a few inches, 6-7 inches with 250w hps, though you have to be on ball to make sure they dont grow to much to burn, I decided to box in my lamp in a sealed air cooled box behind glass, plants can now be close as 2-3 inches from bulb, not burnt one yet. Ill be doing a wee small update today at some point, just need to find some thing bigger and stonge enough to lift the plants up.

I have concerns about heat here too. Especially in August in this northern hemisphere.
Right now I'm 11 inches from top of plant.
70 deg F on top of the hood
80 deg F at the top of canopy(?)
48% R.H. (+6 points from meter - it's off)

I have been looking into LEDs. Still not sure if they are where I want them yet,, at least affordably for what they are. Seems everyone claims theirs are far superior to other,,, I get confused. Fortunately being old & slow has some merit. Seems whenever I finally decide on one, someone comes out with a new & improved,, and I procrastinate more. LOL
I've been site searching on other's grows & results - but there's a lot, and what they say needs to be taken with a very big grain of salt too.
I'd be very interested in seeing what you actually did with your hood. My hood has the intake all around the hood (bottom) and exits the top (4" fan). Not sure how glass would work with it. I feel the light is srong enough for my needs the way it's going, but would like to dump some heat (like everyone else).

Hmmm, you gave me an idea!!!! (I'll get back to you - S. Thanks!)

UPDATE:
As suspected the light hitting the black probe for the temp meter must of been messing with the accuacy. Wondered about that!
Foil cigarret wraper over the prome droped the reading 5 deg F.
Also found out the closer to the light the more the deviation increased.
My scientific research reveils that black absorbs heat! (Oh, someone thought of that already? ;-)

)

Canon · Feb 3, 2011

Stoner.Barbie said:
I have never done or seen these methods done to MJ, but have done it to other plants, that is how i guessed that they would get all bushy.

Hmmm, Looking on YouTube, I thought I saw hints of a mild application of what I'm up to on your last 2 vidios? No?
I'll get back to you also. Need to get on the older PC that'll accept the old memory card and scratch up some photos for a pre-view - LOL
Anything that works on houseplants / highly in-bred veggies almost certainly works on weeds. May need to tinker with timing / application, but weeds grow anywhere if given half a chance.

MediMary · Feb 3, 2011

Ill pull up a seat for your show, In my humble opinion defoliation around day 18-21 in flower is the best technique. Never messed with seedlings before.

Stoner.Barbie · Feb 3, 2011

the ones that are all crazy looking, like there is a bush right in the middle of a stick. are ones that i am re-vegging. i harvested the bud about a month ago, left some green and then put back under the veg time period for lights on. but i did top the auto at like day 18. i think that this is what your talking about. lol

MediMary · Feb 3, 2011

I am talking of removing fan leaves on day 18 of flower~nothing to do with topping. bongsmilie

I don't remove leaves any other time as it seems to stunt the plant, If you guys are interested check out MrDizzle, and Jackmayoffer tests.
They have done several documented grows trying different defoliation techniques, and day 18-21 is the generally consencous.
I know some folks swear by never removing a single leaf, but I too have had the best results following this schedule.

Stoner.Barbie · Feb 3, 2011

MediMary said:
I am talking of removing fan leaves on day 18 of flower~nothing to do with topping.
I don't remove leaves any other time as it seems to stunt the plant, If you guys are interested check out MrDizzle, and Jackmayoffer tests.
They have done several documented grows trying different defoliation techniques, and day 18-21 is the generally consencous.
I know some folks swear by never removing a single leaf, but I too have had the best results following this schedule.

thats cool medi, thanks for the info. but the responce was directed towards Canon.

Canon · Feb 3, 2011

MediMary said:
I am talking of removing fan leaves on day 18 of flower~nothing to do with topping.
I don't remove leaves any other time as it seems to stunt the plant, If you guys are interested check out MrDizzle, and Jackmayoffer tests.
They have done several documented grows trying different defoliation techniques, and day 18-21 is the generally consencous.
I know some folks swear by never removing a single leaf, but I too have had the best results following this schedule.

That is what was expected. However, much to my dismay, not so much this time! :wall:

Alright, day 5 coming up and may alter the plan a mite. (that is why I never "cast in stone" -S)
Either way I'll need to "play" with them a bit tomorrow so there'll be a up-date of sorts.

Canon · Feb 3, 2011

Stoner.Barbie said:
the ones that are all crazy looking, like there is a bush right in the middle of a stick. are ones that i am re-vegging. i harvested the bud about a month ago, left some green and then put back under the veg time period for lights on. but i did top the auto at like day 18. i think that this is what your talking about. lol

Danged! Sorry Stoner, I already made a reply on this but must of hit the wrong button? (and I call you "Stoner"? ;-)

) Anyways, it seems not have posted.

Re-vegging? THAT IS something I've been itching to try but just don't have room.
I'm hoping that the clones from this grow willbe ready to try re-vegging and tossing outside around mid to late August this coming summer. No particular reason why, just playing. :lol:

Unfortunately, I doubt it'll happen because there just isn't time. Well not comfortably without loosing sight of the primary objective. I may however decide to re/veg these if things go right. Use them as re-vegged moms(?), then send outdoors. We'll see.

Canon · Feb 4, 2011

Day 23 / 5

Heavy maintenance day. I'll be adding as things progress.

... the beginning;

5 days ago:

today's beginnings:

Your very basic Flood & Drain (flush)

Nothing special. Just warm tap running in about this speed until pot over flows. Now I let it rest for a couple hours. Salts disolve, partially used nutes & the MG time release are flushed out leaving relatively fresh new soil to work with(?). the pots were so dry that they almost felt empty before watering. (this is all typical and repeated every 3rd to 4th watering)

After the "rest" I'll top off with fresh soil to just below the false leaves again. Then I'll do what you may want to call a Nute Flush? I'll be flushing out the tap water (and more salts / spent nutes / etc. with the materials below.

Per gallon of 24 hr. oxygenated water will include 1/4 cup Peroxide & 1 tablespoon Big Bloom. This is typical and used for all waterings for awhile. Any extra that's saved remains with the air stone on until used. (I like oxygen!) Again, nothing special or dramatic.

Finished back filling to about where I want it for the whole grow now. Pretty boring, nothing special here either.

The finished flush-

Nothing special here either. I add 1 cup slowly at a time, wait 10-15 minutes and repeat until I'm satisfied. This early on and since the roots are relatively shallow, I'll only go 1 qt. per plant to flush out the flat, nuteless tap water from before and replace it with oxygenated enriched nuted water.Also, with a small pump sprayer I sprayed the dirt off the lower leaves (yes, I'm messy - S) and over the whole plant. I advise, DO NOT place plants back under light with water drops on the leaves. Either dry them with a paper towel first or just let the drops evaporate - doesn't really matter too much.
The wooden spoon is a diffuser. Without it you'll likely blow holes in your soil and eventually compact the surface of the soil. Neither of which I appreciate.
This is my standard for most typical grows. The technique is carried in from my past outside grows. Simple, cheap, effective. This whole proceedure is repeated pretty much every third or fourth watering. EVERY watering is the same mix for awile in veg.

Note / Sidebar -
A note about Mirical Grow - It is my suspicion that MG soil is made to be used as a base for their fertilizer additives. I feel that is why they make soooo many variations. They are designed to compliment their soil with specific additives to lean the particulars towards the demands of various vegatation. I've often use their nute with and without their soil with satisfactory to good results. I forget right now which ones I eventually stabilized on, but they're in the shed somewhere if anyone is really interested I'll check when the ice melts and I can get the door open.
One thing though, if you add MG nutes to the water with the stone running, it'll foam up like a bubble bath. Real PIA, but works. Mix with warm water to disolve and add to water (without stone) just before use. I only mixed what I could use, not leftovers.
Okay, done with that part. Next, let's look and play with the individual plants as a one - on - one.

The Ladies.....

Laughing Buddha (LB) sativa

( Whack)

*********************************************************************
Super Silver Haze (SSH) mostly sativa

(whack)

*************************************************************************
Jack Herrer (JH) heavy indica

hello olde friend... (whack)

***************************************************************************
Blue Widow (BW) indica (UFO)

whack

***********************************************************************

By now I'm sure most of you think I'm some sort of whack-o?
That's okay, I can live with that.

Anyways, my stem is pretty much done for this part.
With the foundation out of the way,, I can start building. :lol:

Marcus-
I wasn't ignoring you, just wanted to get this out of the way first.
Now it's time for a toke! (I'll get to you) :peace:

Anyways -

group hug. End of another day of bliss.

UPDATE:
I forgot to mention I whack off the leaves 1/2 thru the light cycle when the plant is fully pumped. This way they still have 9 hours to respond and start closing the wound. Most of this time there will be fluid running out. With fluid running out it's harder to have diseases enter. Still, alky rinse your cutters / knife first.

MarcusTweed · Feb 4, 2011

Canon why don’t you put something under one of the pots, lift one up by 3-4 inches for a least 5 days, maybe the smallest one?

Removing leafs to gain extra light I feel is a bit backwards, when energy (light) went into growing them in the first place, so removing them is simply wasting energy that could of been put to some use else where, Lst as you know does this with out stunting to much growth (depending to what extremes you take it), however on the other hand if plant was at the optimum height from bulb were yours isn’t, then the extra light penetration would give better result with inner growth over all. I'm aware you are simply trying to refine and increase efficacy, but looking at your setup, I feel you are always looking for extra? Your setup seams so elaborate, almost compulsive, to a point were you remind me of myself when I lye my tools out like a surgeon before starting a job, maybe not that much eh? But as a third angle to your method, I would advise looking else were such as the environment and not the plant (At this stage anyway). But look forward to your future results!

One rule I have found, if leafs are dying at the bottom and the plants are thin/lanky then increase your lighting by any means! I got tired having to worry about checking the distance from the bulb every 8 hours, the more the plant grew the more you need to check up!, so I decided to place a sheet of glass between which has cut down temps drastically!

I would advise using low iron content glass, which allows more light through, I have just std glass for now and still noticed a big difference in growth! A few times I’ve had plants touch and grow out under the glass, when I forgot to check up and still not burning any.

I simply have 6 small pc fans in 4 sq/feet the grow area 4 inward and 2 outward bound. A 250w low bay hps from a warehouse (£20), ph 6.5 soil from a garden centre and 9 litre pots, average yield of 1-2.2 oz per AUTO and 3.6 0z auto ak47!

On the other foot, my 400hps wipes the floor with these, when Americans engineers say to us Europeans there is not replacement for displacement. Your right! Yet we can still extract more efficient energy from our engines????

Your may find you can upgrade to 400 hps with a piece of glass in place, this is what I’m planning next!

Stoner.Barbie · Feb 4, 2011

nice start to your experiment.

Canon · Feb 4, 2011

Stoner.Barbie said:
nice start to your experiment.

Thanks.
Think the MJ police are gonna cart me off to the funny farm? :lol:

Stoner.Barbie · Feb 4, 2011

no way man, this is how big things happen.

Canon · Feb 4, 2011

First off Marcus, all your points are solid and have a strong following. Frankly, I march to a totally different drummer. When someone says something don't work... I try it. How's our friend put it? "You can learn a lot from a dummy" :lol:

Well, here I is. ;-)

MarcusTweed said:
Canon why don’t you put something under one of the pots, lift one up by 3-4 inches for a least 5 days, maybe the smallest one? Why may I ask? They're all pretty even. In 5 days I expect to be at or near another trim point.

Removing leafs to gain extra light I feel is a bit backwards, when energy (light) went into growing them in the first place, so removing them is simply wasting energy that could of been put to some use else where,
There is a lot I can say about the above. First, there is always more than one way to skin a cat. My leaf removal to this point was in hopes of establishing a rather strong foundation to suport what is yet to come. Also, I'm not wanting to set-up a debate about leaf removal at this time on here. Suffice it to be known that I'm growing buds, not leaves. For my way of growing.. growing leaves is a waste of energy in it's self. I have no need for any except the smaller starteds, mostly because they serve a intricate part of the whole in this method. The energy you refer to is being utilized elsewhere in the plant.

Lst as you know does this with out stunting to much growth (controlled stunting is a tool) (depending to what extremes you take it) (we will be getting extreem,,, later), however on the other hand if plant was at the optimum height from bulb were yours isn’t, (interesting take here. Just how much light do you think 4 punny little seedlings can handle?)then the extra light penetration would give better result with inner growth over all. I'm aware you are simply trying to refine and increase efficacy, but looking at your setup, I feel you are always looking for extra? Your setup seams so elaborate, almost compulsive, Yup, I'm a whack-o. Retired, bored, it's my hobby and I take some personal pride in the state of things. Most of what you see was accquired through a evolution process though. (you should see my attic!) to a point where you remind me of myself when I lye my tools out like a surgeon before starting a job, maybe not that much eh? Don't bet on it buddy. I think we are a lot alike in that way. Good or bad. But as a third angle to your method, I would advise looking else were such as the environment and not the plant (At this stage anyway). But look forward to your future results!
You know, I should probably do a introduction page. But I fear it'll only take some mystery and fun out of this. Maybe at the end?

One rule I have found, if leafs are dying at the bottom and the plants are thin/lanky then increase your lighting by any means! (Hmmm, are you seeing something on my little girls that I'm missing?) I got tired having to worry about checking the distance from the bulb every 8 hours, the more the plant grew the more you need to check up!, so I decided to place a sheet of glass between which has cut down temps drastically!

I would advise using low iron content glass, which allows more light through, I have just std glass for now and still noticed a big difference in growth! A few times I’ve had plants touch and grow out under the glass, when I forgot to check up and still not burning any.
At this point, I'm not seeing any issues with my lighting. July & August are different, but may very well be switching to LEDs by then. I've felt my lighting is adequet for awhile as far as growing goes. Then again, I basicly grow with only 3 styles. Tall & SCROG are not in the mix.

I simply have 6 small pc fans in 4 sq/feet the grow area 4 inward and 2 outward bound.
I find these bad boys seem to get the job done alright (when needed)
Second pic is a duct fan with speed control. There is another on the wall for the basement extraction (I'll need to hook that back up before flower).

A 250w low bay hps from a warehouse (£20), ph 6.5 soil from a garden centre and 9 litre pots, average yield of 1-2.2 oz per AUTO and 3.6 0z auto ak47!
Guess that sounds okay I've only grown 1 auto and well,,, beat ya! (just a bit of ribbin there - sorry )

On the other foot, my 400hps wipes the floor with these, when Americans engineers say to us Europeans there is not replacement for displacement. Your right! Yet we can still extract more efficient energy from our engines????
Everyone is different. I've thought about down grading to a 150 w/ suplemental. Was actually going to start off with the little 70 watter. I can imagine the comments if I had!

Your may find you can upgrade to 400 hps with a piece of glass in place, this is what I’m planning next! Don't want / need one, thanks.

Marcus, you're jumping the gun. I know you think you know what I'm up to. :lol:

But I doubt it. ;-)

I'm a little perplexed as to why you seem so concerned with my lighting?
As it is, 250 is way over kill. So would a 150. I've done this to this point in a little cab with 2 rinky-dinky CFLs before. No Prob. Certainly using 400 watts for these at this time would be a waste of electricity and money IMHO.
Are you thinking 250 w is all the lighting I have available? If so, you are jumping the gun... a awful lot. :peace:

MarcusTweed · Feb 5, 2011

Yes maybe I have jumped the gun Canon, I read into and also took into account what your issues were with your RR, many apologises.

From what I could remember your nemesis was the lack of height to your grow box therefore I was trying to refer to encouraging inner growth and reduce stretch by means of increasing the intentacy of the light, simply by getting into the sweet pot and penetrating them damn leafs, stimulating the growth your after..

Looking at the hps bulb chart, the difference in lumens per inch increases dramatically, the only problem is the extra heat. However using a piece of glass as shield from the heat would lower your temp problems in summer, give you an extra couple of inches maybe more grow height, increase light intentacy available to the bud sites and establish bigger branches, which now I understand is what you want, may make a another suggestion? Get your self some liquid silicon; it really does work (more on my update later)

I’m all up for removing leafs, it got compulsive at one point which in the end bite me on the arse and turned hemi on me, I was gutted. But now I like to removes leafs in a slightly different manner by removing most of the larger shade leaves at the top of the plant exposing more bud sites and allowing the bottom branches to catch up. I have even removed at 30 odd leaves on my Auto ak47 looks bare like a Spooky tree from Scooby Doo. Like your self, I wanted every node to become a huge bud site like the top of the plant, but only once the plant was well established, when risk of stunting her to much, isn’t a issue, but looks like I screwed that up by snapping her head off argh. Anyway I over analysed this when I forgot to take into account your in vegetate stage of growth, stunting a plant isn’t a issues to be worried about.

At the best of times I’m not brilliant at explaining myself without talking in riddles so sorry for the confusion; however I really do need to learn how to be more tactful amd take time writing my posts!!

Canon · Feb 5, 2011

Arrr, Marcus. NO need to be even remotely sorry.
I knew you were trying to be helpful.
Frankly, I'm glad you made that post. I'm positive your thoughts were the same as most others that may have stopped in for a moment. Helped a lot having the format presented (by you) to shed some light on my reasons / beliefs / experiences. Actually.... Thanks! :lol:

Also your comment being related to the Ugly Betty grow explains a lot. That was a hastidly thrown together thing to get into something that could of been a lot more fun than it ended up being. She was grown in my clone / seedling cab where most of the issues were caused by that cab never being intended to hold flower or plants near that size. The closet used here was wall to wall and no room at the time. (I think a early pic showed where I made an attempt though)

Actually, I just came back here because I happened upon something that reminded me of your post. ;-)

I guess this guy is considered a guru of sorts(?). From my point, I think he's very spot-on with most of his postings (as they pertain to the "Typical" grow style).

https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/150004-plant-moisture-stress-symptoms-solutions.html <- click?

Quote;
3. High Light - yes, it’s true, you can give our faves too much light. Cannabis does not receive full sun from sunrise to sunset in its natural state. It is shaded or given reduced light levels because of adjacent plant material, cloudy conditions, rain, debris and dust collection on the leaf surface, twilight periods of early morning and late afternoon, and light intensity changes caused by a change in the seasons. Too much light mainly serves to bleach out and destroy chlorophyll as opposed to causing leaf cupping, but it often goes hand-in-hand with high heat for indoor growers. Again, back off on the light and concentrate on developing/maintaining an efficient and robust root system. Keep in mind that all but equatorial material receive less light during flowering than during the vegetative stage.

Just struck me odd how I happened on it after just getting done doing that very same thing! :lol:

PS; I openly welcome any questions from anyone that has a genuine interest in what has been going on here. Don't want to hear, "you're an asshole for growing like that!" (we already established that :lol:

) Any questions about the yet to come part,, needs to be held for awhile, please. Hopefully this will keep the journal current and not go jumping around making it hard to follow. - thanks

Stoner.Barbie · Feb 5, 2011

your an asshole. hahahaa just kidding. love ya and goooooood morning!

Canon · Feb 5, 2011

Stoner.Barbie said:
your an asshole. hahahaa just kidding. love ya and goooooood morning!

LOL, Morning Barb.
Just heard the tail end of a weather report.
Something about 3 more snows coming back to back.
Now if I have this right,, is your's simular? ;-)

When you had 18" the other day, I had the equivelant with freezing rain / rain / snow mixed. I've about 5 inches of white ice in the yard from this season that'll probably postpone my 'tilling plans for spring! :wall:

Stoner.Barbie · Feb 5, 2011

Canon said:
LOL, Morning Barb.
Just heard the tail end of a weather report.
Something about 3 more snows coming back to back.
Now if I have this right,, is your's simular?

When you had 18" the other day, I had the equivelant with freezing rain / rain / snow mixed. I've about 5 inches of white ice in the yard from this season that'll probably postpone my 'tilling plans for spring!

yep you got it right. more snow to come. grrrrrrrrrrrrr. just got done shoveling the snow away from the house so that it does not cause rott. time for another vape treatment. weeeeeeee

Canon · Feb 5, 2011

(self) Note;

Thinking about yesterday.

Sativa - as suspected, maybe tempermental with this style. Looks not to be reacting as others.

Near sativa - As expected. Typical so far.

Near indica - same as above

Indica - Surprise! I expected the more indica the better this would work. It's very simular to the all sativa

Something about the more pure strains?
Breeding /strain related?
Just the seeds?
EDIT:
Then again, it's possible that the seed / strain is simply on a different grow agenda.

(Interesting how an answer brings another question. Sometimes looking for answers only bring more questions too.)

Got to thinking. Last time I used MH I was not pleased then either and ended up switching.
Switched from MH to HPS. Same 18/6 (21 actual days from breaking ground)

Theory Testing of Styles

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