true organics

dank smoker420

Well-Known Member
there are alot of organic nutrients out there. but what are really organic? you hear all this talk about certain companies not being 100% organic and what not. i feel that there is nothing that can be 100% organic in a bottle. why not use actual natural things and make the same things as what the bottles are for? what are your favorite organic to use? i am looking for new sources of P and K
 
I was told that ff tiger bloom was organic but the company refused to pay to have it certified.
I have no proof and no real idea.
heard it from a grower/store owner so take it for what it is worth. I would love to know for sure though.
 
Should be interesting to see where it goes from here beings Scotts just bought Foxfarm. I would guess that if it truly is organic they will get it certified...along with upping the price, of course.

EDIT: Foxfarm website still has a current blog going as of Aug 30th so this Scotts thing may just be a rumor. Secondly, FOxfarm website lists Tiger Bloom as being one of their products that is NOT fully organic.
 
ful power humic acid is good no npk value, hygrozyme no npk value. earthworm castings, alfalfa meal,kelp meal, super tea mix by the guano company
 
Fox Farm was great to me when I first began growing, however the more I find out about them, the less I like them.
 
I was told that ff tiger bloom was organic but the company refused to pay to have it certified.
I have no proof and no real idea.
heard it from a grower/store owner so take it for what it is worth. I would love to know for sure though.

Simply look at the ingredients listed on the bottle, you should be able to decipher for yourself if it's organic or not
 
tiger bloom is certainly NOT organic

Big Bloom, also made by Fox Farms is organic though. Its EWC, guano, Kelp and sulfate of potash
 
Don't just focus on the word organic, think about the meaning of the word and why people are doing it this way instead of just using synthetics. For example a company might sell you a bottle of liquid organic humic acid, but then they're putting it in a plastic bottle made from petro, using a machine that runs on coal energy, and shipping it from your store from the other side of the world using trucks and ships built in the late 80s.

Now compare that to creating a small compost bin, turning it daily for three to four weeks and taking the extra 'compost juice' and pouring it onto your garden.

Both ways give you humic acid, and both are technically organic, but only one way is following the true spirit of the word organic. And who's to say it's only humic acid your plants need. That compost juice, while high in humic acid, it's also high in all the other maco and micro nutrients. So even if we haven't figured out what exactly our plants needs, chances are mother nature knows and will provide.

This is why so many organic gardeners will tell you it's more important to feed the soil and not your plants. Good soil is that which is high in organic matter. The more organic matter you have, the less problems you'll run into regardless of what else is going on. Have really high ph? Add lots of organic matter. How really low ph? Add lots of organic matter. Does organic matter fix the ph? No. But it buffers and improves the water & nutrient holding abilities of the soil that ph never even affects the plant to begin with.

Here's another another of bad organics... the use of Guano. Sure it's organic, but harvesting it is very destructive, and it's never been proven to be better then anything else. So why use it? Most likely it's because it looks like the most organic thing in the hydro shop and lots of people like Subcool and all the tea brewers on this site and others add it to their teas. Oh and don't get me started with teas. So many people just grab everything on the shelf and call it a super tea and they don't even have a clue what their doing.

When you really sit down and think about it, one of the best organic products you can use is green manure. Think kelp, legumes, alfalfa meal. And the closer it is to it's natural shape and form the better. The exception being with kelp. Make sure to wash it first. You know, the whole salt kills plants thing and all.

Also I don't know if you pay'd attention during Earth Science in college, but one of the things I learned was about how plants are able to reestablish themselves after a major forest fire or volcano. First you have small grasses, but then they die and their leaves create a cushion for another plant species to come in. That plant in turn drops leaves and flowers, creating another layer. Every tree and flower that drops leaves is really creating a new layer of soil for itself. Again, it all comes back to organic matter. Add organic matter and avoid anything that's highly refined and processed. Mother nature will take care of the rest.

Here's a photo of my garden. The big bushy plant off to the left was fertilized three times this year at 1/4th the recommended strength and it's directly in the ground. I have to fertilize because of the low organic content in the soil. However the tall skinny Sativa way in the background. I planted her in a 3'x3' raised bed. Fill it with ready to use organic potting soil from Home Depot. Cost me $4 a bag. Placed her in the bed in mid March and were now in the middle of September. I've never had to fertilizer her!! Six inches of regular organic potting soil has been enough. Don't let the bushiness of the other plant full you. It's only bushy because it's near the end of flowering while the Sativa has just barely begun and isn't expected to finish until mid-to-late November.

2012-08-31_06-31-43_45.jpg
 
And yes that's corn growing in the background. Already harvested the ears, just been to lazy to pull the stalks out. Pretty cool though having plants bigger then my corn. ;)
 
Simply look at the ingredients listed on the bottle, you should be able to decipher for yourself if it's organic or not

Exactly and the OMRI stamp really doesn't mean squat either. The do NOT certify anything, merely list.

Use your noggin and read the label.

Wet
 
Don't just focus on the word organic, think about the meaning of the word and why people are doing it this way instead of just using synthetics. For example a company might sell you a bottle of liquid organic humic acid, but then they're putting it in a plastic bottle made from petro, using a machine that runs on coal energy, and shipping it from your store from the other side of the world using trucks and ships built in the late 80s.

Now compare that to creating a small compost bin, turning it daily for three to four weeks and taking the extra 'compost juice' and pouring it onto your garden.

Both ways give you humic acid, and both are technically organic, but only one way is following the true spirit of the word organic. And who's to say it's only humic acid your plants need. That compost juice, while high in humic acid, it's also high in all the other maco and micro nutrients. So even if we haven't figured out what exactly our plants needs, chances are mother nature knows and will provide.

This is why so many organic gardeners will tell you it's more important to feed the soil and not your plants. Good soil is that which is high in organic matter. The more organic matter you have, the less problems you'll run into regardless of what else is going on. Have really high ph? Add lots of organic matter. How really low ph? Add lots of organic matter. Does organic matter fix the ph? No. But it buffers and improves the water & nutrient holding abilities of the soil that ph never even affects the plant to begin with.

Here's another another of bad organics... the use of Guano. Sure it's organic, but harvesting it is very destructive, and it's never been proven to be better then anything else. So why use it? Most likely it's because it looks like the most organic thing in the hydro shop and lots of people like Subcool and all the tea brewers on this site and others add it to their teas. Oh and don't get me started with teas. So many people just grab everything on the shelf and call it a super tea and they don't even have a clue what their doing.

When you really sit down and think about it, one of the best organic products you can use is green manure. Think kelp, legumes, alfalfa meal. And the closer it is to it's natural shape and form the better. The exception being with kelp. Make sure to wash it first. You know, the whole salt kills plants thing and all.

Also I don't know if you pay'd attention during Earth Science in college, but one of the things I learned was about how plants are able to reestablish themselves after a major forest fire or volcano. First you have small grasses, but then they die and their leaves create a cushion for another plant species to come in. That plant in turn drops leaves and flowers, creating another layer. Every tree and flower that drops leaves is really creating a new layer of soil for itself. Again, it all comes back to organic matter. Add organic matter and avoid anything that's highly refined and processed. Mother nature will take care of the rest.

Here's a photo of my garden. The big bushy plant off to the left was fertilized three times this year at 1/4th the recommended strength and it's directly in the ground. I have to fertilize because of the low organic content in the soil. However the tall skinny Sativa way in the background. I planted her in a 3'x3' raised bed. Fill it with ready to use organic potting soil from Home Depot. Cost me $4 a bag. Placed her in the bed in mid March and were now in the middle of September. I've never had to fertilizer her!! Six inches of regular organic potting soil has been enough. Don't let the bushiness of the other plant full you. It's only bushy because it's near the end of flowering while the Sativa has just barely begun and isn't expected to finish until mid-to-late November.

View attachment 2340397


its funny how you preach using your own compost, and discredit store bought organic nutrients. then you use Home depot organic soil as your medium, and then give your other plant synthetics doesnt make sense why you would preach one thing and do another.

everything i said is an organic amendment to feed the soil some just in liquid form, and the super tea is a premade compost tea.
how is harvesting bat guano destructive? taking guano out of a cave where a million bats shit everyday?

its just not practical to use outdoor compost in an indoor organic garden. i use my outdoor compost for my backyard garden dont have to worry about bugs as much when you get fresh organic ingredients it saves precious time as well
 
its funny how you preach using your own compost, and discredit store bought organic nutrients. then you use Home depot organic soil as your medium, and then give your other plant synthetics doesnt make sense why you would preach one thing and do another.

everything i said is an organic amendment to feed the soil some just in liquid form, and the super tea is a premade compost tea.
how is harvesting bat guano destructive? taking guano out of a cave where a million bats shit everyday?

its just not practical to use outdoor compost in an indoor organic garden. i use my outdoor compost for my backyard garden dont have to worry about bugs as much when you get fresh organic ingredients it saves precious time as well

oh man you really opened a can of worms didn't you...lol (pardon the pun)
 
Bats are easily spooked. Harvesting guano while bats are roosting can cause pup loss and abandonment of caves. Bat fecal matter, like mice & rat droppings, is a carrier for many human transmittable diseases. Workers are supposed to spray the area with bleach and wear HEPA filters inside their masks, but many in third world countries do not. In Southern California, the number one carrier of rabies is bats. I don't have the stats of rabies in other countries, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was high in bats in many regions around the globe. There are groups out there that can harvest guano responsibly, but they are the exception not the rule. It can be hard to weed out the good companies vs the bad ones. So if you can avoid a guano product and use a green manure in it's place, I would say that's a good thing.

If a product you buy and love has a little bat guano in it, you don't necessarily have to abandon it. Use up your stock, and just be mindful of your options the next time you need to make a purchase. Mainly what I think people should avoid is going into a hydroponic store and spend a lot of money on pure bat guano, thinking it's the latest and greatest in organics, when there is ample evidence to suggest it's not a sustainable product and there are lots of alternatives that can take its place.

As for the comment about me preaching the act of composting while not doing it myself, that's completely false. When I build a new raised bed, I assign a small section of it and call it my compost area. Its not a large big production compost bin, but it's enough to allow me to compost all the dead leaves and roots from my plants. The following year I place seeds in the compost area and assign a new area for composting. This is part of my crop rotation strategy, which I also advocate others to do as well. Just like how I often tell people that they can drastically cut down on the amount of nitrogen fertilization by first growing legumes or clovers as a cover crop. By tiling the crop before it has a chance to go to seed you have just created green manure. Can't afford Iguana Juice? No problem. Buy a 10 lb bag of bird feed from the pet store for a couple of bucks. The seeds are mostly legumes, sunflowers, and clovers. The exact plants you want for a cover crop. Grow them in November well after you've harvested your cannabis crop. Terminate them in Feburary and by March your soil is pre-fertilized. This is organics at it's finest.

When creating a new garden or adding a new raised bed, you probably won't have enough compost to fill your beds. When this happens, I think you should go to a local store and buy a good premium organic potting much that's rich in organic matter. I don't think growers need to buy Roots Organic at $30 a bag. In fact, I believe you can get great results using a ready to use organic potting soil available at most Home Depots and Lowes for $5 to $10 a bag. Mainly, Kellogg Patio Plus and Mel's Mix. Both organic, both available locally, and relatively cheap. Yes it's from a retail store and not your compost bin, but it's a step in the right direction.

Teas are nice, but from my experience, a lot of people will buy a dozen organic products, mix them together in a bucket, and brag on these forums how great their compost teas are, when they really didn't ever do any side by side tests. I do on occasion use teas myself, but they are a lot simpler. Mainly I go and buy an all purpose mix like Kellogg organic all purpose fertilizer, mix it with water, stir for a few minutes and pour. The reason I like Kellogg fertilizer is because it'smade of of simple meals (feather, blood, kelp, etc), comes in a dry slow releasing form, is minimally processed, and can be purchased locally for under $10. Kellogg isn't the only product that I like. Epsoma is another organic product that gets rave reviews. If that's local and cheap, why not go with that instead of the cannabis specific nutrients.

Fox Farm, Advanced Nutrients, General Hydro, etc. These are hydroponic nutrients marketed specifically to the cannabis grower. The prices for these products are outrageous. The quality is dubious. And the results are fair to good at best. However, I'll admit, I'm skeptical of hydroponic systems all together. I think hydro is meant for researchers and students and that indoor hydroponics is to expensive & energy intensive to be worth while, but that's a topic best saved for another thread.

I do feel there is a place for synthetics. Largely in small containers, closed hydroponic systems, advanced lawn irrigation systems, and on large scale farms. However, you have to be a little more careful with them. Synthetics can leach and ruin your soil for years if your not careful. It can also leach into the ground water, putting extra pressure on your local water treatment facility, and can more easily burn your crop. So in light of these problems, it's often wiser to go organic when it's practical to do so.

I hope this helps to clarify my position and views on organics. If you have further questions, go ahead and ask.

- Vin
 
I do feel there is a place for synthetics. Largely in small containers, closed hydroponic systems, advanced lawn irrigation systems, and on large scale farms. However, you have to be a little more careful with them. Synthetics can leach and ruin your soil for years if your not careful. It can also leach into the ground water, putting extra pressure on your local water treatment facility, and can more easily burn your crop. So in light of these problems, it's often wiser to go organic when it's practical to do so.
- Vin

Interesting that you condone the use of synthetics on large scale farms. How sustainable do you suppose that is?
 
Bats are easily spooked. Harvesting guano while bats are roosting can cause pup loss and abandonment of caves. Bat fecal matter, like mice & rat droppings, is a carrier for many human transmittable diseases. Workers are supposed to spray the area with bleach and wear HEPA filters inside their masks, but many in third world countries do not. In Southern California, the number one carrier of rabies is bats. I don't have the stats of rabies in other countries, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was high in bats in many regions around the globe. There are groups out there that can harvest guano responsibly, but they are the exception not the rule. It can be hard to weed out the good companies vs the bad ones. So if you can avoid a guano product and use a green manure in it's place, I would say that's a good thing.

If a product you buy and love has a little bat guano in it, you don't necessarily have to abandon it. Use up your stock, and just be mindful of your options the next time you need to make a purchase. Mainly what I think people should avoid is going into a hydroponic store and spend a lot of money on pure bat guano, thinking it's the latest and greatest in organics, when there is ample evidence to suggest it's not a sustainable product and there are lots of alternatives that can take its place.

As for the comment about me preaching the act of composting while not doing it myself, that's completely false. When I build a new raised bed, I assign a small section of it and call it my compost area. Its not a large big production compost bin, but it's enough to allow me to compost all the dead leaves and roots from my plants. The following year I place seeds in the compost area and assign a new area for composting. This is part of my crop rotation strategy, which I also advocate others to do as well. Just like how I often tell people that they can drastically cut down on the amount of nitrogen fertilization by first growing legumes or clovers as a cover crop. By tiling the crop before it has a chance to go to seed you have just created green manure. Can't afford Iguana Juice? No problem. Buy a 10 lb bag of bird feed from the pet store for a couple of bucks. The seeds are mostly legumes, sunflowers, and clovers. The exact plants you want for a cover crop. Grow them in November well after you've harvested your cannabis crop. Terminate them in Feburary and by March your soil is pre-fertilized. This is organics at it's finest.

When creating a new garden or adding a new raised bed, you probably won't have enough compost to fill your beds. When this happens, I think you should go to a local store and buy a good premium organic potting much that's rich in organic matter. I don't think growers need to buy Roots Organic at $30 a bag. In fact, I believe you can get great results using a ready to use organic potting soil available at most Home Depots and Lowes for $5 to $10 a bag. Mainly, Kellogg Patio Plus and Mel's Mix. Both organic, both available locally, and relatively cheap. Yes it's from a retail store and not your compost bin, but it's a step in the right direction.

Teas are nice, but from my experience, a lot of people will buy a dozen organic products, mix them together in a bucket, and brag on these forums how great their compost teas are, when they really didn't ever do any side by side tests. I do on occasion use teas myself, but they are a lot simpler. Mainly I go and buy an all purpose mix like Kellogg organic all purpose fertilizer, mix it with water, stir for a few minutes and pour. The reason I like Kellogg fertilizer is because it'smade of of simple meals (feather, blood, kelp, etc), comes in a dry slow releasing form, is minimally processed, and can be purchased locally for under $10. Kellogg isn't the only product that I like. Epsoma is another organic product that gets rave reviews. If that's local and cheap, why not go with that instead of the cannabis specific nutrients.

Fox Farm, Advanced Nutrients, General Hydro, etc. These are hydroponic nutrients marketed specifically to the cannabis grower. The prices for these products are outrageous. The quality is dubious. And the results are fair to good at best. However, I'll admit, I'm skeptical of hydroponic systems all together. I think hydro is meant for researchers and students and that indoor hydroponics is to expensive & energy intensive to be worth while, but that's a topic best saved for another thread.

I do feel there is a place for synthetics. Largely in small containers, closed hydroponic systems, advanced lawn irrigation systems, and on large scale farms. However, you have to be a little more careful with them. Synthetics can leach and ruin your soil for years if your not careful. It can also leach into the ground water, putting extra pressure on your local water treatment facility, and can more easily burn your crop. So in light of these problems, it's often wiser to go organic when it's practical to do so.

I hope this helps to clarify my position and views on organics. If you have further questions, go ahead and ask.

- Vin


i like how your spreading knowledge of nitrogen fixing legumes good stuff!!!!! just not practical for indoor gardening in separate pots.
where im at roots organic is $15 the home depot kellog is like $8 but i have to add a shit load of perlite as there is none i think its meant to be and outdoor soil its holds shit load of moisture, not great for indoor containers the budswell super tea is $40 a gallon iguana is $40 a liter

not sure where budswell super bat stands in harvesting techniques. but just about every organic grow or flower nute has guano in it it seems.

i want my soil to have as much organic matter and microbial life but i wanna keep its clean and pest free as possible
 
Fox Farm, Advanced Nutrients, General Hydro, etc. These are hydroponic nutrients marketed specifically to the cannabis grower. The prices for these products are outrageous. The quality is dubious. And the results are fair to good at best. However, I'll admit, I'm skeptical of hydroponic systems all together. I think hydro is meant for researchers and students and that indoor hydroponics is to expensive & energy intensive to be worth while, but that's a topic best saved for another thread. - Vin

Dude,

I use FF Tomato Veg and FF Fruit and Flower (both are organic) each 4# bag cost $10, each bag is enough to amend about 112 gallons of soil. (that's .08 cents per gallon of soil) explain why that so expensive?
 
Interesting that you condone the use of synthetics on large scale farms. How sustainable do you suppose that is?

That's because large commercial farms can take advantage of specialized farming technology. They are more likely to take tissue samples more often and use timers and fertilizer regulars to keep costs down. It's not perfect but it's a fair trade off.
 
That's because large commercial farms can take advantage of specialized farming technology. They are more likely to take tissue samples more often and use timers and fertilizer regulars to keep costs down. It's not perfect but it's a fair trade off.

Okay, was just curious as to your line of reasoning
 
Dude,

I use FF Tomato Veg and FF Fruit and Flower (both are organic) each 4# bag cost $10, each bag is enough to amend about 112 gallons of soil. (that's .08 cents per gallon of soil) explain why that so expensive?

What kind of ratio and how often do you feed with these?
 
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