Understanding S1’s and F1’s

Sprout123

New Member
I’m not a breeder, but I did pollinated an auto feminized plant with pollen I collected from a male plant of a different strain. The seeds came out with the « auto » genetics and I’m getting approximately 50/50 male and female seeds. I then took a male and a female from these seeds and put them together , so the female gets pollinated and get a new batch of seeds. Now the question, what are the seeds coming out from that ? S1? F1 ?
 

Dopesmoka

Well-Known Member
I’m not a breeder, but I did pollinated an auto feminized plant with pollen I collected from a male plant of a different strain. The seeds came out with the « auto » genetics and I’m getting approximately 50/50 male and female seeds. I then took a male and a female from these seeds and put them together , so the female gets pollinated and get a new batch of seeds. Now the question, what are the seeds coming out from that ? S1? F1 ?
Dam is that actually a f2 or s2 because they were the same generation siblings ?
 

Attikus112

Well-Known Member
I found this description somewhere a long time ago, found it helpful.
F0 or PThe parents selected to start a breeding program. Often referred to as P1 and P2, but this is incorrect.
F1The first cross between two unrelated parents. The F stands for filial, and refers to the fact that all F1 progeny of the same cross are full brothers and sisters to one another.
S1The first selfed generation. Selfing an S1 produces an S2, etc. Anecdotal evidence from Sam_Skunkman indicates that continued selfing to the S3 and S4 produces plants so weak that they must be handled very carefully, “like kittens” in his words.
R1's (aka Reversed F1's)When feminized pollen is used to pollinate a different female than the pollen donor. R1's will tend to act like a tradional male x female cross, only all female, while S1's appear to have some different properties that are not yet fully understood. Early reports indicatee that S1's are more consistent than R1's on average, but there are many exceptions, and more research is needed.
BC1 or Bx1The first backcross generation, ie when an F1 or R1 progeny is crossed back to an F0 parent. Backcrossing can increase the influence of either parent, but continued backcrossing is too much inbreeding, according to both DJ Short and Rezdog, and should be used rarely if at all. One or two backcrosses followed by full-sib mating has been a successful strategy for many breeders, including the creator of Northern Lights.
These terms can be combined for short and pedigrees. A second backcross, followed by three generations of sib-mating, may be represented as a BC2-F3 generation.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
So for the ones that have been shooting spitballs at each other rather than paying attention, and I read they are considered different plants although I am not sure why:

You have two clones off the same plant but you reversed one and then used that pollen on the other clone. I would think this would be the same as selfing the plant with a lower branch that was converted. Am I wrong? And if you grew a bunch of the the seeds, took a clone of each, grew the mothers to flower, found the ones you found acceptable. Can you then take the clone, flower it and then pollinate it with the original pollen? Or is this the same as a S2 with the original pollen?
 

maranibbana

Well-Known Member
So for the ones that have been shooting spitballs at each other rather than paying attention, and I read they are considered different plants although I am not sure why:

You have two clones off the same plant but you reversed one and then used that pollen on the other clone. I would think this would be the same as selfing the plant with a lower branch that was converted. Am I wrong? And if you grew a bunch of the the seeds, took a clone of each, grew the mothers to flower, found the ones you found acceptable. Can you then take the clone, flower it and then pollinate it with the original pollen? Or is this the same as a S2 with the original pollen?
yes when you have two clones with the same genetics and you reverse one and pollenate the other it is the same as selfing and would make the resulting seeds from that cross S1 if it has never been selfed before.

id say not the same as an S2 if you use the original pollen from the reversed clone single parent.

if you were to make that S2 x original S1 single parent pollen cross id imagine the resulting gen would be considered R1 or Rbx1 and not S2/F1 imo

the resulting S1 generation and the variation in their morphology would depend on the stability of the genetics used to begin with. if the mother was from a broad F1 cross then its possible that its resulting S1 generation might contain a broad variation of genetic expression from past generation(s) variations. depending on what you're looking to do this could be a good thing! but also its nice to pop a good pack of stable S2/Rbx2/F3+ genetics and find a keeper and self her and find that all her seeds contain a very tight spectrum of morphology in pheno and all pretty much (but not quite) a copy of the mother/single parent. depends on what you're looking to do, some wanna lock in for their garden some wanna make something new :) or both!

unwanted info
Making an S1, and then in the S1 generation making an S2, then taking the S2 and reversing it and back crossing it with one of the parents from the S1 gen to make Rbx1, then pop them and S1 them, then pop and S2 them, then reverse and Rbx again to same parent to get your Rbx2 and some go one more time but id say at Rbx2 you're locked in really nicely to an expression of the parent you back crossed to.


what's your goal? I'm interested
 
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maranibbana

Well-Known Member
"Backcross, the mating of a hybrid organism (offspring of genetically unlike parents) with one of its parents or with an organism genetically similar to the parent. The backcross is useful in genetics studies for isolating (separating out) certain characteristics in a related group of animals or plants. In animal breeding, a backcross is often called a topcross. Grading usually refers to the mating of average, or “grade,” females to a superior male, then backcrossing the female offspring to the same or a similar sire."

to me it goes both ways... you could reverse the S1 fem and pollenate the recurrent parent OR use the pollen from the parent to pollenate the S1, both would create an Rbx1 generation of different spectrum and variation
 

printer

Well-Known Member
unwanted info
Making an S1, and then in the S1 generation making an S2, then taking the S2 and reversing it and back crossing it with one of the parents from the S1 gen to make Rbx1, then pop them and S1 them, then pop and S2 them, then reverse and Rbx again to same parent to get your Rbx2 and some go one more time but id say at Rbx2 you're locked in really nicely to an expression of the parent you back crossed to.


what's your goal? I'm interested
You had me until here, had to read a few times but followed it. Actually a pretty good explanation. at first I had goddamn root aphids that I could not get rid of and destroyed two grows because of them. I figured the only way to get rid of them is to stop growing for a month. I did it before and got a grow in (sorry long story but I hate the fuckers). Anyway I paid enough for seeds a few times, could have bought more weed than I harvested by now for the cost.

So I just wanted to get seeds to regrow the same plants. I have a couple of strains, two high CBD and one 1:1 strain. One of the CBD I have had a hard time growing but it has citric flavor to it, the other easier growing one, flavor not too great. Thought I would cross the two together and also cross each with the 1:1. Hey, if I am going to jump in.

I started by reversing the two high CBD strains and I wanted to get a move on as I have some decent pain issues. The 1:1 stuff helps, it grew well, but it does leave me with a little buzz that I wouldn't want to operate machinery or drive with. So I want a CBD plant that grows well, wondering if I could get a cross that has a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio going. Now that I have been reading more it seems like it will be more than just waving some pollen over them and all is good. Mind you, if I do have viable plants (and no aphids) I can clone them and play around with the future generations. Seems like it can be a fun hobby for a retired guy.
 

maranibbana

Well-Known Member
You had me until here, had to read a few times but followed it. Actually a pretty good explanation. at first I had goddamn root aphids that I could not get rid of and destroyed two grows because of them. I figured the only way to get rid of them is to stop growing for a month. I did it before and got a grow in (sorry long story but I hate the fuckers). Anyway I paid enough for seeds a few times, could have bought more weed than I harvested by now for the cost.

So I just wanted to get seeds to regrow the same plants. I have a couple of strains, two high CBD and one 1:1 strain. One of the CBD I have had a hard time growing but it has citric flavor to it, the other easier growing one, flavor not too great. Thought I would cross the two together and also cross each with the 1:1. Hey, if I am going to jump in.

I started by reversing the two high CBD strains and I wanted to get a move on as I have some decent pain issues. The 1:1 stuff helps, it grew well, but it does leave me with a little buzz that I wouldn't want to operate machinery or drive with. So I want a CBD plant that grows well, wondering if I could get a cross that has a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio going. Now that I have been reading more it seems like it will be more than just waving some pollen over them and all is good. Mind you, if I do have viable plants (and no aphids) I can clone them and play around with the future generations. Seems like it can be a fun hobby for a retired guy.
May take some playing around but you’d find what you’re looking for and could hone in with testing
 

maranibbana

Well-Known Member
If I was doing this project, I would reverse the CBD plant that is less desirable and take that pollen (making the less desirable plant the male) and pollenate the CBD plant that is more desirable.

I would take those seeds and pop them to grow out the R1 generation. In that generation I would choose the one(s) that seem the closest to what you are looking for in terms of traits that the good CBD plant has. once that plant is found I would reverse it and back cross it with the original good CBD female parent to make the seeds that result from that cross RBX1 (the first reverse back cross to the mom/genetics you’re trying to stabilize into seed)

then pop those RBX1 seeds and find the one closest to what you’re looking for again and reverse her and back cross it to the same good CBD mom as before...
after that you should have around 90% expression of the parent you backcrossed to successively. You could do it again, but I think 2-3 is enough

But you could do so much that’s why breeding to me is so fun lol... you could take the first R1 and then find two you like in those R1 seeds you pop and reverse one and cross it with its sibling to make and R2 and then hunt within those seeds and self/S1 one you like, then reverse it and back cross it to the mom... god so many interesting possibilities!
Good luck! Share results!
 

printer

Well-Known Member
If I was doing this project, I would...
Copied and pasted into a email where I am collecting words of wisdom. Thanks for the reply. I am sure I will try a few different routes. I am even growing out some mystery seeds I got. the mother was supose to be a White Widow but people here said it looked more in a Blueberry strain. Hey what do I know, they were freebees? Anyway she found a mystery suitor in the backyard and in the fall I found out I had hundreds of seeds. No idea what she smoked like, it got hit by a good frost and most of it was mush. So I don't know what the seeds will give me. But I have hundreds of them and you never know, have some fun exploring them.
 

Doomboy15

Well-Known Member
So I had a female purple punch in flower that was from clone and I had some grape ape pollen that came from a male plant from seed. I pollinated the purple punch and collected seeds. I planted 1 seed and flowered it and took cuttings. Is the plant in flower a f1 and the clone a s1?
 
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