Way too many contradictions in this hobby.

singlecoiled · Jan 6, 2023

As a new grower who takes new hobbies way too seriously, I am left scratching my head. I am a big reader, and have read just about every grow book published, both old and new. Examples https://cannabislegale.org/these-are-the-5-best-cannabis-growing-books/

I have also watched many youtube videos showing grows and offering advice on growing.

Here are some topics that I find very frustrating, both from advice give on forums and from the grow books.

1. Flower time----Countless professional grow videos show MOST cannabis finishing at around week 8-9 (including pre flower time-- we are talking 8-9 weeks after 12/12 flip and they harvest.) If you ask around here, chances are no matter what you say (Lets say I'm in week 9 Flower with an Indica) almost 90% of people will say " You have many weeks to go)... I understand that Seedbanks may be dishonest with flower times, but for a newbie, all the mis-information I can find is conficting. And yes, I let a 7-9 week Indica go many weeks longer following advice from others and it was harvested a bit late....(watching tricomes and pistols with a loupe)

2. Bloom Nutrients-- And or Nitrogen during flower. This one is really giving me a headache, most say to cut nitrogen mid to late flower, but many also say that Bloom Nutrients cause more harm than good. So, I'm pretty much F'ed here. If I cant feed bloom and cant feed Nitrogen (grow nutrients-in flower) what the hell should I feed? I'm at the point where I'm starving my plants because I'm afriad to give them anything.

3. Flushing before harvest---- This is a funny one. In this case, I'm talking about the final flush before harvest. Almost every book I read and following the advice from many professional growers, the taste of the final product will be lower quality if not flushed. And of course, if you've been reading recent advice from folks on the forums,many people are saying not to flush. Another confict leaving me wondering. (I do not flush pre-harvest, but I still wonder who's right)

4. Flushing----- Now, not to complicate things, but the definition of "flushing" seems to be two different things. Definiton 1 is applying plain water 1-2 weeks before harvest. Definition 2 is to flush excess salts from the soil using twice the amount of water to soil. If you look at many feedcharts (Fox Farm as an example) they clearly say to Flush the soil (definition 2) if anything irregular shows----- So, once again we have contradictory opinions here. I cant tell you how many people say not to flush the soil (def 2) and how many say that pre harvest flush is useless.

5. Soil PH---- This is by far the worst for me as it is very important to have the right PH in the root zone, but to save my life I have now way to test it accurately. Have you ever tried to get deep into your soil to test after the roots have taken over the soil? You can't ! The best I can do is to measure water PH going in to compare to the water coming out, but I don't think this is accurate at all. There has to be an easier way to accurately measure soil PH in the root zone. Soil is really starting to annoy me and I'm tempted to go hydroponic even though I know there is a deep learning curve.

6. And last but not least, too many things look alike. Fungus Gnats or Root Aphid flyers? (they look very similar and are very small)... Same goes for deficiencies, lets take purple stems as an example.---Could be a deficiency, might just be the strain. Its just a big headache to me now.

I like growing, but with the price of weed dropping (its almost free where I live now) I'm wondering why I'm bothering anymore. I just cant seem to find good advice that doesnt contradict itself and feel like a dog chasing my tail.

(Side note: please excuse my horrible hacking of the english language, some of the words used here may be off and I am aware that my writing needs improvent !)

amneziaHaze · Jan 6, 2023

Each strain is different each seed is different you learn how it looks whrn its finished what breeder tells you is just when to start looking if its finished.

Bloom nutrients have also nitrogen just less.you want to keep your leafs green.if they start to yellow give some veg nutes.

Flush or dont its a preference taste will differ find what you like.

Real flush is "medical" if you over feed.the other flush is actually just plain water until harvest people confuse the two because the both use water.

You can send a soil sample to the lab but the runoff is still good you need to see if ph is 4 not if ph is 6.14. but your bacteria should control the ph soo really not much need to test.

Yes everything looks the same but you cant have a deficency but feed 3x nutrients.you know what you are giving the plant and how she is living soo you remove everything thats not fiting inyour parameters.when you see a fan blowing in your plant you can say maybe its windburn. Its a trial and error

Coldnasty · Jan 6, 2023

singlecoiled said:
As a new grower who takes new hobbies way too seriously, I am left scratching my head. I am a big reader, and have read just about every grow book published, both old and new. Examples https://cannabislegale.org/these-are-the-5-best-cannabis-growing-books/

I have also watched many youtube videos showing grows and offering advice on growing.

Here are some topics that I find very frustrating, both from advice give on forums and from the grow books.

1. Flower time----Countless professional grow videos show MOST cannabis finishing at around week 8-9 (including pre flower time-- we are talking 8-9 weeks after 12/12 flip and they harvest.) If you ask around here, chances are no matter what you say (Lets say I'm in week 9 Flower with an Indica) almost 90% of people will say " You have many weeks to go)... I understand that Seedbanks may be dishonest with flower times, but for a newbie, all the mis-information I can find is conficting. And yes, I let a 7-9 week Indica go many weeks longer following advice from others and it was harvested a bit late....(watching tricomes and pistols with a loupe)

2. Bloom Nutrients-- And or Nitrogen during flower. This one is really giving me a headache, most say to cut nitrogen mid to late flower, but many also say that Bloom Nutrients cause more harm than good. So, I'm pretty much F'ed here. If I cant feed bloom and cant feed Nitrogen (grow nutrients-in flower) what the hell should I feed? I'm at the point where I'm starving my plants because I'm afriad to give them anything.

3. Flushing before harvest---- This is a funny one. In this case, I'm talking about the final flush before harvest. Almost every book I read and following the advice from many professional growers, the taste of the final product will be lower quality if not flushed. And of course, if you've been reading recent advice from folks on the forums,many people are saying not to flush. Another confict leaving me wondering. (I do not flush pre-harvest, but I still wonder who's right)

4. Flushing----- Now, not to complicate things, but the definition of "flushing" seems to be two different things. Definiton 1 is applying plain water 1-2 weeks before harvest. Definition 2 is to flush excess salts from the soil using twice the amount of water to soil. If you look at many feedcharts (Fox Farm as an example) they clearly say to Flush the soil (definition 2) if anything irregular shows----- So, once again we have contradictory opinions here. I cant tell you how many people say not to flush the soil (def 2) and how many say that pre harvest flush is useless.

5. Soil PH---- This is by far the worst for me as it is very important to have the right PH in the root zone, but to save my life I have now way to test it accurately. Have you ever tried to get deep into your soil to test after the roots have taken over the soil? You can't ! The best I can do is to measure water PH going in to compare to the water coming out, but I don't think this is accurate at all. There has to be an easier way to accurately measure soil PH in the root zone. Soil is really starting to annoy me and I'm tempted to go hydroponic even though I know there is a deep learning curve.

6. And last but not least, too many things look alike. Fungus Gnats or Root Aphid flyers? (they look very similar and are very small)... Same goes for deficiencies, lets take purple stems as an example.---Could be a deficiency, might just be the strain. Its just a big headache to me now.

I like growing, but with the price of weed dropping (its almost free where I live now) I'm wondering why I'm bothering anymore. I just cant seem to find good advice that doesnt contradict itself and feel like a dog chasing my tail.

(Side note: please excuse my horrible hacking of the english language, some of the words used here may be off and I am aware that my writing needs improvent !)

Follow the grow books not the people here and you’ll have much less stress lol. As far as flushing and all that goes you have to decide that for yourself, I suggest try both ways and then you will know for a certainty if you need to flush in your situation. I use salts these days indoors and I do flush because I tried both and decided that for myself. I think this goes for most of this stuff. Good luck and don’t stop growing!!

amneziaHaze · Jan 6, 2023

If they say it tastes bad means something is happening.you have to decide what is better for you.each person has his taste

PopAndSonGrows · Jan 6, 2023

Flower time as listed by breeders, is really a rough guideline because every environment is different. You and I could grow same clones & our end results will still vary. It's all about that VPD, stay "in the zone" to maximize growth potential & speed of flowering.

Flushing as it pertains to final harvest; my very general opinion, all the books & blogs & YouTube growers telling you to do it, are echoing old advice they've been following for x amt of years. The general consensus of final flush here on RIU is that it's unnecessary, & that sentiment IMO is more current and is repeated, rather than echoed, throughout this forum. It gets asked weekly. It always turns into a tire-fire of a shitshow.

Flushing, as a general term, is just watering to dilute the substrate of a nutrient or nutrients. It can be argued that watering to runoff itself is a form of flushing.

Nutrients: you're gona have to navigate that multiverse of sales pitches on your own, lol. Very generally speaking; I do feel it's a good idea to taper from a "grow" to a "bloom" feed, but there are plenty of one-part formulas that disprove that as being necessary.

Soil pH; i grow in coco, so hell if i know, lol! But, on that note, pH'ing my water is vital because there's nothing in the coco to buffer it, unlike living soil which should do the pH'ing for you, so to speak.

I promise, most of us if not all of us freaked the fuck out the first time we saw a gnat and thought it was the ultimate deathbug & our grows were over. Bugs are an entire topic in & of itself to learn, many of which you may not learn about until you see one on your plants or in your soil. And that's ok.

Look man, we're talking about a subculture that has eighteen different Kush's and none of them are even truly of any Kush origin. There's gona be "inconsistencies".

Somatek · Jan 7, 2023

singlecoiled said:
As a new grower who takes new hobbies way too seriously, I am left scratching my head. I am a big reader, and have read just about every grow book published, both old and new. Examples https://cannabislegale.org/these-are-the-5-best-cannabis-growing-books/

I have also watched many youtube videos showing grows and offering advice on growing.

Here are some topics that I find very frustrating, both from advice give on forums and from the grow books.

Grow books give you a good baseline but don't fill in all the gaps and are based on the best info at the time of publishing which we're finding out isn't necessarily the best way to grow now that it's actually being studied rigorously in universities as a new cash crop. Short version; take everything with a grain of salt.

1. Flower time----Countless professional grow videos show MOST cannabis finishing at around week 8-9 (including pre flower time-- we are talking 8-9 weeks after 12/12 flip and they harvest.) If you ask around here, chances are no matter what you say (Lets say I'm in week 9 Flower with an Indica) almost 90% of people will say " You have many weeks to go)... I understand that Seedbanks may be dishonest with flower times, but for a newbie, all the mis-information I can find is conficting. And yes, I let a 7-9 week Indica go many weeks longer following advice from others and it was harvested a bit late....(watching tricomes and pistols with a loupe)

People's advice is often wrong and often is simply parroting what they've read elsewhere with no nuanced understanding. Like saying "2 more weeks" when looking at a single pic of one bud which doesn't give enough context to give an answer. There's a trap of beginners asking beginner questions which only other almost-beginners answer as anyone who's spent time growing/online gets bored of the endless legions of people asking the same questions. There isn't one right answer, it's a matter of taste as some prefer an earlier harvest (headier/speedier) while others prefer a late one (more narcotic/sedative). As a grower it's up to you to figure out where to harvest the varieties you grow, which is easier with clones vs seeds as their consistent and easier to learn on. Again though the prevailing online attitude is "seeds are easier and just as good"...

2. Bloom Nutrients-- And or Nitrogen during flower. This one is really giving me a headache, most say to cut nitrogen mid to late flower, but many also say that Bloom Nutrients cause more harm than good. So, I'm pretty much F'ed here. If I cant feed bloom and cant feed Nitrogen (grow nutrients-in flower) what the hell should I feed? I'm at the point where I'm starving my plants because I'm afriad to give them anything.

Bloom nutes are designed to meet a plants needs during flowering; people who say they cause more harm then good don't know what their talking about and clearly are blaming the product for their mistakes. That's as common as people blaming a tool when their lack of experience is the issue. If you bought a quality fertilizer, follow their recommendations cut in half. It's good advice for beginners to use half strength as the recommended dose is assuming the plants are in an ideal environment with maximum potential growth. As a beginner that won't be the case, so start with half strength as a baseline to avoid excess fertigation.

3. Flushing before harvest---- This is a funny one. In this case, I'm talking about the final flush before harvest. Almost every book I read and following the advice from many professional growers, the taste of the final product will be lower quality if not flushed. And of course, if you've been reading recent advice from folks on the forums,many people are saying not to flush. Another confict leaving me wondering. (I do not flush pre-harvest, but I still wonder who's right)

It was standard and widely accepted that flushing before harvest improved quality by reducing the mineral content in the plant matter, improving how it burns/tastes. A paper from the UoG on optimal irrigation studies for pot had a blurb about testing that theory and didn't find any difference in the mineral content of the bud when analyzed. Which created the controversy around whether it does anything. The study didn't have any subjective testing to see whether people preferred flushed or unflushed pot, it simply looked at nutrient content. Looking at the actual paper though it also notes there wasn't any significant difference in weight; which logically to me means there's no point wasting money on ferts in the last couple weeks if the plant isn't really using them. The more you cut through the chatter and go to the source, the less confusing things are. Equally if someone doesn't have a source and uses the old refrain "I know because I've grown for x years and that's better" then their opinion is equally limited.

4. Flushing----- Now, not to complicate things, but the definition of "flushing" seems to be two different things. Definiton 1 is applying plain water 1-2 weeks before harvest. Definition 2 is to flush excess salts from the soil using twice the amount of water to soil. If you look at many feedcharts (Fox Farm as an example) they clearly say to Flush the soil (definition 2) if anything irregular shows----- So, once again we have contradictory opinions here. I cant tell you how many people say not to flush the soil (def 2) and how many say that pre harvest flush is useless.

You're confusing two different things because growers are sloppy with language (pistils are actually stigmas, a pistil is the ova/stigma/style, calyx's are actually called bracts as the calyx is a thin multi cellular layer on the embryo, etc). The idea of flushing minerals out of a plant to improve the quality is a questionable theory, the science of flushing the grow medium to prevent salt build up/nute lock out is proven and basic chemistry. When using mineral salt/synthetic nutes they will slowly accumulate in the soil and if not washed out regularly will build to the point where they start binding to other minerals and form precipitate that's unavailable to the plants to absorb. Since they are water soluble, they can easily be washed out of soilless mediums which have fairly low CEC's and don't hold ions tightly. Again, anyone disputing that doesn't understand what their talking about which is sadly common with the weed bros.

5. Soil PH---- This is by far the worst for me as it is very important to have the right PH in the root zone, but to save my life I have now way to test it accurately. Have you ever tried to get deep into your soil to test after the roots have taken over the soil? You can't ! The best I can do is to measure water PH going in to compare to the water coming out, but I don't think this is accurate at all. There has to be an easier way to accurately measure soil PH in the root zone. Soil is really starting to annoy me and I'm tempted to go hydroponic even though I know there is a deep learning curve.

If you're using a professional grow medium it'll be buffered to keep the pH stable and in the ideal range. If you're using a simple, quality fertilizer, mixing it properly and pH'ing properly you don't need to test the soil pH; it won't be your limiting factor so fixating on it will only get in the way. If you really want to test your soil pH then look up how to do a soil slurry test, it's as simple as diluting a measured volume of soil in neutral distilled water, letting it sit and then filtering out the solids before using a pH meter. Again, not something I'd worry about, focus on the macro until you work your way down to the micro details like measuring soil pH.

6. And last but not least, too many things look alike. Fungus Gnats or Root Aphid flyers? (they look very similar and are very small)... Same goes for deficiencies, lets take purple stems as an example.---Could be a deficiency, might just be the strain. Its just a big headache to me now.

Purple stems are almost always a deficiency outside of some very isolated and mostly landrace cultivars. It's a common early sign of nutrients issues, again beginners telling other beginners it's "genetic" is more often a case of ignorant people passing on bad info because they don't know any better.

I like growing, but with the price of weed dropping (its almost free where I live now) I'm wondering why I'm bothering anymore. I just cant seem to find good advice that doesnt contradict itself and feel like a dog chasing my tail.

From an economic viewpoint growing doesn't make sense for most people with legalisation driving prices down. If you want a challenging hobby that forces you to learn various branches of science, if you life testing and discovering, if you enjoy problem solving and deducting a problem from limited clues, if you enjoy gardening and want to deepen your knowledge or if you're a connoisseur that wants more then the limited commercial offerings; growing is a great hobby. That or validation from Internet strangers that don't realise how naive it is to think you can judge a bud from a pic. That's as absurd as thinking you could pick a wife/husband from a pic without knowing anything else...

hotrodharley · Jan 7, 2023

Cannabis Flushing Research Study

In our research study, RX Green Technologies evaluated the effects of different flushing times on chemical profile, flavor, and smoke of cannabis flower.

www.rxgreentechnologies.com

hotrodharley · Jan 7, 2023

Flushing is BS. You’re not douching the damned plant. It’s not going to crap out anything eh? It has no alimentary canal. It’s a plant. Name one other domesticated crop that’s “flushed” before harvest.

Star Dog · Jan 7, 2023

hotrodharley said:
Cannabis Flushing Research Study

In our research study, RX Green Technologies evaluated the effects of different flushing times on chemical profile, flavor, and smoke of cannabis flower.

www.rxgreentechnologies.com

Brainwashed lmao

Rurumo · Jan 7, 2023

Forget about the grow books, they are mostly full of terrible parroted info from the internet anyway, or the old ones are all bro-science unless you're reading Robert Connell Clarke (his books are work buying.) You'll get far more useful and detailed info from threads/people here (or the other forums) and with a little time and experience it becomes easy to separate the good info from the bad. I'd start looking through grow journals and find the good ones growing plants similar to what you want to grow and then emulate what they are doing. Look for people who consistently grow nice plants. Look up the big threads specific to whatever media/nutrients/lights etc, that you are using, and use that info as a baseline for your own grows. With each grow, take notes on what you are doing, so you can repeat the good results, or alter your methods if you fail and try again next time.

You're going to get a lot of different information because there are a LOT of ways to grow successfully. Some people will use .8-1 EC for an entire grow and get the same yields as people who use 2 EC-you'll find plenty of seeming "contradictions" like that, that aren't really contradictions at all because these plants are so adaptable to different growing conditions, what works for one person's conditions might fail miserably in your conditions. You'll find what works best for you in time and "dial in" your grow for the conditions that you maintain-temp, RH, air circulation, lighting (ppfd), co2 levels-these things all make your specific grow unique, and present challenges you will need to overcome. I know people who couldn't complete a grow in soil if their life depended on it, but in coco, it seems like they have a green thumb....BUT, we also see tons of bad first coco grows on the forums because people try to treat it like soil, or they take some generic advice like "coco is impossible to overwater" and they go and overwater their coco. The worst kind of advice in this hobby are blanket statements that are based on a kernel of truth.

Somatek · Jan 7, 2023

Rurumo said:
Forget about the grow books, they are mostly full of terrible parroted info from the internet anyway, or the old ones are all bro-science unless you're reading Robert Connell Clarke (his books are work buying.) You'll get far more useful and detailed info from threads/people here (or the other forums) and with a little time and experience it becomes easy to separate the good info from the bad. I'd start looking through grow journals and find the good ones growing plants similar to what you want to grow and then emulate what they are doing. Look for people who consistently grow nice plants.

This is just inaccurate, most of the OG grow books (Cervantes, Rosenthal, Frank) are simply horticultural facts with inaccurate assumptions about unknowns like suggesting PM is systemic like most PM species which most likely isn't the case based on what we know now. I've noticed a serious drop in the knowledge level online as people have shifted from relying on grow books to the web for their primary source of info. Some of the newer books, like Greg Green's from the little I saw were based more on the webs anecdotal stories and have little value. Then again there's now books like Cannabis Production in Controlled Environments written by the UoG prof which is much more detailed for people serious about learning the foundations of pot hort.

You're going to get a lot of different information because there are a LOT of ways to grow successfully. Some people will use .8-1 EC for an entire grow and get the same yields as people who use 2 EC-you'll find plenty of seeming "contradictions" like that, that aren't really contradictions at all because these plants are so adaptable to different growing conditions

This is misleading; if someone is using twice the EC and only getting the same yield then their system isn't balanced as their wasting nutes. The fact the plants are "adaptable" (aka a colonizing weed that's hard to kill) means bad growers can still get decent results, which are easily manipulated with the perspective distortion inherit in photography. That doesnt mean both are equally useful sources of info or their grows are equal. This is the kind of common mistake you get when people learn from following others online without understanding the science as there's so many variables that affect growing between different regions.

Star Dog · Jan 7, 2023

Take anything you read on forums with a pinch of salt, i can tell you with certainty experts don't hang around forums trying to sound educated.

Look at the plants they'll give you a much better idea of growers ability, talk is so cheap anyone can do it.

crimsonecho · Jan 7, 2023

grow as many plants as you can. tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, eggplants and so on. have a garden and grow roses and other flowers too. thats how you’ll understand how to grow plants and all this “info” on many cannabis site is just funny. you need 100 different amendments in your soil to grow good bud? no 4-5 is more than enough. and cutting nitrogen in flower? why? nitrogen is essential for photosynthesis and so on. its just some absurd shit you read on forums.

MissinThe90’sStrains · Jan 7, 2023

The best thing I think new growers can do is to get some experience growing anything, before jumping into the world of growing cannabis. There is a lot of basic plant care that youll learn, a lot of transferable skills you can take with you (for example, a tomato - starting seeds, nurturing seedlings, pruning, transplanting, feeding, taking cuttings and rooting them, and flowering them). Cannabis indeed is a special plant, but it’s still a plant at the end of the day. A little relevant experience and common sense with gardening will answer a lot of basic questions. Then you’ll have some knowledge and wisdom to draw from and help discern whether the info you’re getting makes sense or not.

CaliRootz88 · Jan 7, 2023

odessa · Jan 7, 2023

Wait until you really dig into Egyptology or digital audio. No matter the topic you are going to find more bullshit than good info. Humans have some kind of redirect virus. We are drawn to bullshit like moths to a flame. It is up to YOU to suss it out. Experience is a spiral. As you go round and round you will get ever closer to the center but will never reach it, but, over time you will see a chasm between what you learn from experience vs conventional wisdom. It's almost as if conventional wisdom being flawed is a feature not a bug designed to alert you to the fact that you need to eschew authority and experience for yourself. You feed the eye at the top of the pyramid through triangulating information.

ComfortCreator · Jan 7, 2023

Cannabis is obv a rare situation where unlike most produce the goal for most growers is very high quality vs quantity. Profit used to rule cannabis but now supply is high and profit doesnt come simply by producing a lot.

A few posts above mention growing other crops...the point is cannabis IS just another crop and grows like any crop does. The issues come from the desire to maximize quality through any means.

I could answer each question but you will do better to think through each element for yourself.

There is a difference for example, between growing in soil with little runoff and occasionally watering past runoff to keep the root area "clean" or from getting a concentrated soup. Does that mean you should "flush"? Is that flushing? Learn WHY they sometimes flush, especially in hydro grows...moreso learn the difference between FLUSHING and runoff!

Flower time...the better I get at growing, the closer I come to their flower times. Much of the time i have grown to 13 weeks or more is actually a deficient plant that needed more time to try and finish. Each grow improves and i can see that flower times are bs but are within a few weeks of correct.

Experience is everything. I grew "very good" my first time, but 10 rounds later it is night and day.

No farmer becomes master of their domain their first season! Be patient, keep asking Qs.

ismann · Jan 7, 2023

People overcomplicate this shit. Growing weed isn't hard. After my first couple grows I've been on autopilot.

Somatek · Jan 7, 2023

And now this thread has become a perfect example of why growing is confusing for beginners as it's full of contradicting opinions more then facts...

Boatguy · Jan 7, 2023

Somatek said:
And now my posts are a perfect example of why growing is confusing for beginners as it's full of contradicting opinions more then facts...

FIFY

Way too many contradictions in this hobby.

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