What do you believe is the fundamental problem with [American] government?

Grandpapy said:

Communism would never use Capitalism not even in a hundred yr plan.

And what’s Washington going to do? Tell General Electric and Microsoft and General Motors to stop investing in China? Lots of luck with that.
http://www.newsweek.com/2015/03/27/chinas-not-so-secret-game-plan-313792.html

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Thanks for that link. It is fascinating how much you and I agree on.

undercovergrow said:

no, your view is all wrong. you're focusing on the propaganda, but it is the corruption that is killing this country not capitalism. as soon as Wilson allowed the Federal Reserve to be created and Nixon took us off the gold standard, corruption has been running rampant in this country and we are being run by an oligarchy of men.

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What if my view isn't the wrong one? Where is the supporting evidence for your assertions? I'm careful to include mine.

undercovergrow said:

@Fogdog i believe that people believe things to be true and believe them to be facts when they are not true and therefore not factual. just a bit of confusion between us regarding that part.

the system as it currently is set up has been moving this country toward socialism for quite some time and the only difference between the two parties is the speed at which they do it. the "details" like what they believe on abortion, immigration, etc., are just hot ticket items to keep the people engaged that there is "something being done" about the items this country has needed to address for generations. taxes--let's tax the rich!! that'll do it. medicare and the like are just systems designed to bring the people toward a single-payer health care system. just because someone doesn't agree that the federal government should be the entity that decides who gets what and what kind of help doesn't mean i don't desire to see people taken care of.

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Our system is an oligopoly; Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. And the fact that you don't know this is clear evidence that you aren't one of the rich.

visajoe1 said:

so the people that worked for those companies that received bailouts had no families or homes of their own? if the businesses folded, the workers lose nothing?

2008 was a sad time, i lost a house too, but its not corporations fault. a business is just made of people. its peoples fault. from politicians, to banks, to borrowers. no one had a gun to their head to borrow what they couldnt pay for houses that werent worth it. but when shit hit the fan, the feds did what they could to help the most. i do think obama did a pretty good job of navigating that time, it was fucking tough for a lot of people.

capitalism pulls societies from poverty. been proven over and over, although it gets tweaked here and there. but production and competition has always been good for economies.

does a country exist that has the society you want and the economy you want? at the end of the day, no one is responsible for us except ourselves.

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The banks created the crisis, then profited from it while homeowners lost trillions in value. If you think it was your own fault, I should stop bothering to treat you like you have an education or are capable of independent thought.

visajoe1 said:

large corporations represent large financial impacts. they spread a loooooooot of money around. the transfer of dollars every day is important to keep our economy strong. you can hate on corporations all you want, but to you they may be more of a necessary evil. whos going to pay all the tax money you demand for your social programs? the employees from these corporations. Corps arent going anywhere dude, so bark up another tree

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So it's okay for them to raid our treasury to prop themselves up at taxpayer expense?

You ARE an idiot.

I never said that corporations are fundamentally bad, I said treating them differently than ordinary citizens is bad.

Your logic skills are bad. You're stupid, and emotional.

ttystikk said:

The banks created the crisis, then profited from it while homeowners lost trillions in value. If you think it was your own fault, I should stop bothering to treat you like you have an education or are capable of independent thought.

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At the same time Communist controlled Bank of China Backs Private Investments of Business opportunities abroad.

China’s outward foreign direct investment (OFDI) expanded significantly in the past decade, but the majority of the investment has gone to countries in the developing world. However, in recent years the focus of Chinese investors has started to shift to North America and Europe. Since 2009, Chinese direct investment in America and Europe has increased sharply, and developed economy-bound flows are poised to grow heavily through 2020.
http://rhg.com/articles/the-rise-in-chinese-overseas-investment-and-what-it-means-for-american-businesses
http://rhg.com/articles/the-rise-in-chinese-overseas-investment-and-what-it-means-for-american-businesses

undercovergrow said:

no, your view is all wrong. you're focusing on the propaganda, but it is the corruption that is killing this country not capitalism. as soon as Wilson allowed the Federal Reserve to be created and Nixon took us off the gold standard, corruption has been running rampant in this country and we are being run by an oligarchy of men.

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Corruption was running rampant in the country before the Federal Reserve was created. In fact, the whole reason that Woodrow Wilson was elected in the first place was because he was considered to be the progressive that would end the rampant corruption of business in cahoots with city and/or local governments. Teddy Roosevelt and Wilson were political animals that responded to outrageous corruption at all levels of American society, and voters for these two figures in different political parties mostly believed that they would end the American oligarchy that existed at that time. Are you saying that America lacked corruption before these events?

Do you know anything about American history? The nation has been corrupt for a long, long time.

DiogenesTheWiser said:

Corruption was running rampant in the country before the Federal Reserve was created. In fact, the whole reason that Woodrow Wilson was elected in the first place was because he was considered to be the progressive that would end the rampant corruption of business in cahoots with city and/or local governments. Teddy Roosevelt and Wilson were political animals that responded to outrageous corruption at all levels of American society, and voters for these two figures in different political parties mostly believed that they would end the American oligarchy that existed at that time. Are you saying that America lacked corruption before these events?

Do you know anything about American history? The nation has been corrupt for a long, long time.

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We've been taught to think that America is somehow above corruption. This is a smokescreen to make it easier for the corrupt to operate here.

DiogenesTheWiser said:

Corruption was running rampant in the country before the Federal Reserve was created. In fact, the whole reason that Woodrow Wilson was elected in the first place was because he was considered to be the progressive that would end the rampant corruption of business in cahoots with city and/or local governments. Teddy Roosevelt and Wilson were political animals that responded to outrageous corruption at all levels of American society, and voters for these two figures in different political parties mostly believed that they would end the American oligarchy that existed at that time. Are you saying that America lacked corruption before these events?

Do you know anything about American history? The nation has been corrupt for a long, long time.

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do you? obviously i am aware that corruption has existed in this country for a long time, but those two events did set this country on a course--that's why Wilson confessed he had ruined his country when he realized what he had done. progressives are just another word for socialists who desire to move the country slowly and in gradual stages toward their ideal.

the belief that the People had at the time--that electing different political parties would end the oligarchy (that you just said has been there but everyone else denies)-is evidence that We The People have been deceived. both parties are the same and are just moving us toward a desired goal at different speeds.

undercovergrow said:

do you? obviously i am aware that corruption has existed in this country for a long time, but those two events did set this country on a course--that's why Wilson confessed he had ruined his country when he realized what he had done. progressives are just another word for socialists who desire to move the country slowly and in gradual stages toward their ideal.

the belief that the People had at the time--that electing different political parties would end the oligarchy (that you just said has been there but everyone else denies)-is evidence that We The People have been deceived. both parties are the same and are just moving us toward a desired goal at different speeds.

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I'm convinced he knows American history better than you do.

You've just made a very basic mistake; one of confirmation bias.

ttystikk said:

I'm convinced he knows American history better than you do.

You've just made a very basic mistake; one of confirmation bias.

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never claimed to be an historian, however, these are my opinions and you are experiencing a confirmation bias as much as anyone else does too. you've claimed you're "open" to new ideas, but you seem just surprised that no one else is as open to them as you are while you make comments like above.

undercovergrow said:

never claimed to be an historian, however, these are my opinions and you are experiencing a confirmation bias as much as anyone else does too. you've claimed your "open" to new ideas, but you seem just surprised that no one else is as open to them as you are while you make comments like above.

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You can have your own opinions. What you may not do is create your own facts.

ttystikk said:

You can have your own opinions. What you may not do is create your own facts.

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creating facts? we are both expressing our opinions regarding the system.

undercovergrow said:

creating facts? we are both expressing our opinions regarding the system.

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You keep attempting to conflate progressiveism with socialism and the two are quite different.

You know what beats corruption? Hunger. What will the value of proteins be in 30 yrs as China continues to double it's population?

What is NPPC's position?
NPPC supports tax reform to streamline business operations, encourage investments and make the American pork industry more competitive worldwide. NPPC and its members encourage maintaining the option for a cash accounting system, eliminating the estate tax, maintaining stepped-up basis, lowering taxes on capital investments and immediate expensing of capital investments, simplifying the tax code to reduce compliance costs and lowering the corporate tax rate.
http://nppc.org/



It's a win win for Globalization, kinda fucked for those that live near the farm and have to carry the burden. (of living in the shit and piss) But yea! America!

ttystikk said:

You keep attempting to conflate progressiveism with socialism and the two are quite different.

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i understand that they are two different ideas, but i do think that the goal of both is the same thing. why do you think it is okay that the federal government is telling its citizens to buy something?

ttystikk said:

Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor.

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Nicely summarized!

undercovergrow said:

@Fogdog i'm saying that Trump and the Republicans are not fixing the health care system, they are just bringing about the original plan of single-payer healthcare that was originally wanted. health care is important to me--that's why i have always made decisions in my life that ensure i have it. i don't want the government involved in my health care.

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Yes, what I said. You have health care coverage and don't give a shit about it after that. Same goes with the Muslim ban, ICE activities ramping up. I suppose you follow the right wing line that fossil fuels aren't causing global warming too. And so, you say that Republicans are same as Democrats because you have gotten yourself to a frame of mind where the only thing that matters is "no government". And it's true that Republicans aren't really for small government.

I'm just saying that for a lot of people the actions of Republicans hurts them. Democrats haven't done them the same harm. True the people Republicans harm are in the minority.

socialism is still morally wrong - it is theft.

in 1920s, a high tax rate was created for the rich. that amount was $100,000. i'm sure the people who voted to tax the rich then felt that the system would be equal...inflation has made the "middle class" in 2017 paying "make-the-rich-pay taxes" that the People probably never intended they would pay. for generations this country has been dealing with a system that is corrupt. you keep focusing on your Chomsky propaganda. there will always be inequality. there will always be someone that has worked hard and has $10 in their pocket, and someone who just gets by and has $4. while you might think it's okay to take from the first guy to give to the second to equal things out, it is most definitely not.

@Fogdog health care coverage is not a right. i have coverage because i've made decisions in my life to reflect its importance to me to have the coverage. should we as a society help our population? of course!! should our federal government (as opposed to local) be in charge of it--no. we haven't discussed the Muslim ban, ICE activities or fossil fuels... i do feel the federal government has a role to play in our daily lives-i just want it to be a limited-in-scope government. i suppose you believe that the carbon dioxide people breath out (and cannabis growers around the world desire to get more of it in their garden) is causing global warming and should be taxed?

undercovergrow said:

socialism is (still) morally wrong

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Which is lower on the morality scale:

• Some socialistic policies?
• Allowing humans to die because they don't have coverage?

Don't be a fucking imbecile.