What is the Definition of a Soul?

  • Thread starter Thread starter PadawanBater
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Not completely unsubstantiated. They've [u know, "Them" ,"those guys" lol no here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor) ]done tests where they weigh a person on his/her deathbed and the person loses a small amount (21 gram theory) of weight once they leave their body. Some call it the soul, others consider it just energy, like the laws of conservation of energy/mass. energy/mass may neither be created nor destroyed. Meaning its transformed. What if that loss of weight is just air under pressure/temp. in our body that dissapates once we die? Like steam rising from a pot of boiling water, or vapor subliming off ice. Somebody on here was saying how any two persons ideas of a soul differ. That's very true, any two people's perspectives on anything are going 2 drastically differ. What does the world look like out of my eyes? How does the color purple look, seen from your body, as opposed to anothers eyes or perception? Some people are color blind, so what looks like brown to me and what the color-blind kid calls brown, they are the same, but completely different? What does the world look like to a dog? How well can any of us really understand anything at all? We can pretend. Its all relative. Its like our bodies are parallel universes or something. We all experience similar things in completely different ways. We couldnt have the same thing happen to us at the same time, because we have a different point of view and perception, and reaction time. I see a meteor fall from the sky, u see that same meteor but from a different angle and percieve it differently, having a completely unique experience, but is it not similar cuz we saw the same meteor fall? Did we even see the same meteor fall, i saw my "meteor" and u saw your version. I need sleep..
 
sarah22 said:
i personally feel that the universe itself is this higher power. i think that the universe is god, and....
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I have a similar theory, what if what we call the universe, is the body of god? Maybe even gods, like a colonial organism, or we're inside god, who's walking (i prefer to imagine god flying) through his own environment or "universe", so our entire universe is just a gnat in another swarm. What if there are nanoscopic beings inside each of us that have the power to contemplate their own existence, and call us their god? Just a thought, I don't know anything so I try not to dwell on any one idea in particular. But i favor this one, that everything gets infinitely smaller (true you can keep dividing anything, theoretically, like a number, infinitesmally), and also infinitely bigger, to no end
 
drumbum3218 said:
Not completely unsubstantiated. They've [u know, "Them" ,"those guys" lol no here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor) ]done tests where they weigh a person on his/her deathbed and the person loses a small amount (21 gram theory) of weight once they leave their body. Some call it the soul, others consider it just energy, like the laws of conservation of energy/mass. energy/mass may neither be created nor destroyed. Meaning its transformed. What if that loss of weight is just air under pressure/temp. in our body that dissapates once we die? Like steam rising from a pot of boiling water, or vapor subliming off ice. Somebody on here was saying how any two persons ideas of a soul differ. That's very true, any two people's perspectives on anything are going 2 drastically differ. What does the world look like out of my eyes? How does the color purple look, seen from your body, as opposed to anothers eyes or perception? Some people are color blind, so what looks like brown to me and what the color-blind kid calls brown, they are the same, but completely different? What does the world look like to a dog? How well can any of us really understand anything at all? We can pretend. Its all relative. Its like our bodies are parallel universes or something. We all experience similar things in completely different ways. We couldnt have the same thing happen to us at the same time, because we have a different point of view and perception, and reaction time. I see a meteor fall from the sky, u see that same meteor but from a different angle and percieve it differently, having a completely unique experience, but is it not similar cuz we saw the same meteor fall? Did we even see the same meteor fall, i saw my "meteor" and u saw your version. I need sleep..
Click to expand...

i say the same thing...my reality and your reality are going to be different. no 2 people are going to view reality exactly the same way...because we all have our own separate consciousness with which to view it.
 
morgentaler said:
Greed maybe, but headway is already being made against ignorance and religion.

As academics fight to instill critical reasoning faculties in future generations we will see better educated and capable youth. And religion is already losing it's numbers. It may not seem like much to most people, but there's a reason that religious leaders in North America and Europe are in a panic. That few percentage points of atheism that increased in the last decade is just the canary in the coal mine. The generation that follows is the internet generation, and those born after 1990 are much more savvy, drawn to science, and put off by religion.

Some churches in the US are already closing their doors.

I'm not sad to see them go.
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You are living in a dream world. Religion isn't going anywhere. Sorry to disappoint you but religion has been around since the first humans stood erect. Religion and superstition will follow mankind into whatever blackhole or cosmic disaster ends our existence. :peace:
 
Religion has already left in some places.
Scandinavian countries have as high as 80% atheism in their communities right this minute.

The better the education of the populace, the less religion there is.

And sure, North America has a lot of college students, but it has a very high density of people who need help counting change for a vending machine.

You bring up the level of education here and atheism is sure to follow.

doc111 said:
You are living in a dream world. Religion isn't going anywhere. Sorry to disappoint you but religion has been around since the first humans stood erect. Religion and superstition will follow mankind into whatever blackhole or cosmic disaster ends our existence. :peace:
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^^But first you have to dramatically change the education system... Its not for most people, just a small percentage of achievers.

As well maybe most of you have lay heed to the concept that religion is just a extremely shotty, and misguided version of scientific advancement. I mean it is pretty clear. Scientist have been like what cops are supposed to do, interpret the information and enforce the laws. The only thing that religious institutions, pseudoscientific groups and scientific discoverers have in common is trying to decipher the why something exists at all, and that something does exist. This force of creation, or GOD if you will, its all we are able to know about, the details regarding its creation are somewhat muddled in uncertainty, but at least the deepest fringes of science are attempting to discover that and not laying all honor to an anthropomorphic entity.

Sarah22, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you aren't contributing to this saying, "I know whats what and no one can change my mind, but I am willing to give up my beliefs if someone can map my entire life with meaning and....." Sending lots of mixed messages and giving no room for compromise.

I'm not going to say I know what a soul is, or that they even exist because I know the mental capacities of my person and that strictly isn't possible. Try to humor me for a second, imagine a box, its in 2d. Now imagine a cube.... wow its also in 2d. The fact is 3d is beyond the grasp of human comprehension, by the time our field of vision is full a screen style image is rendered, its a flat image with the illusion of depth. Now to say you know how, or that, some part of us is extended past our 4-dimensional realm, into a high dimensional state is pure delusion. I don't even think the leaders in unified field theory are that confident.

EDIT: You can even project a 4d square, a tesserect, using 3 dimensions onto 2d so as to see it.

Now to say that you know you have a soul, maybe I don't have one, we have different realities is a complete inaccurate attempt substantiation. The truth is that the universe follows what I call the All or Nothing philosophy. The idea being that the universe came from the big bang, and extended as fractals would, now where the trick is is whether there is my single mind in the universe, as the only truly thought processing being, me. Or did the universe always exist and it is all just a meaningless chaotic sequence of events. Either way it doesn't rationally effect me, having one as a truth or the other doesn't lead to any conflict in thought processes as most religious institution have been determined to defend.

Peace

PS I also deeply accept the possibility that the universe doesn't exist at all, I am just entertaining myself.
 
Mr.KushMan said:
^^But first you have to dramatically change the education system... Its not for most people, just a small percentage of achievers.

As well maybe most of you have lay heed to the concept that religion is just a extremely shotty, and misguided version of scientific advancement. I mean it is pretty clear. Scientist have been like what cops are supposed to do, interpret the information and enforce the laws. The only thing that religious institutions, pseudoscientific groups and scientific discoverers have in common is trying to decipher the why something exists at all, and that something does exist. This force of creation, or GOD if you will, its all we are able to know about, the details regarding its creation are somewhat muddled in uncertainty, but at least the deepest fringes of science are attempting to discover that and not laying all honor to an anthropomorphic entity.

Sarah22, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you aren't contributing to this saying, "I know whats what and no one can change my mind, but I am willing to give up my beliefs if someone can map my entire life with meaning and....." Sending lots of mixed messages and giving no room for compromise.

I'm not going to say I know what a soul is, or that they even exist because I know the mental capacities of my person and that strictly isn't possible. Try to humor me for a second, imagine a box, its in 2d. Now imagine a cube.... wow its also in 2d. The fact is 3d is beyond the grasp of human comprehension, by the time our field of vision is full a screen style image is rendered, its a flat image with the illusion of depth. Now to say you know how, or that, some part of us is extended past our 4-dimensional realm, into a high dimensional state is pure delusion. I don't even think the leaders in unified field theory are that confident.

EDIT: You can even project a 4d square, a tesserect, using 3 dimensions onto 2d so as to see it.

Now to say that you know you have a soul, maybe I don't have one, we have different realities is a complete inaccurate attempt substantiation. The truth is that the universe follows what I call the All or Nothing philosophy. The idea being that the universe came from the big bang, and extended as fractals would, now where the trick is is whether there is my single mind in the universe, as the only truly thought processing being, me. Or did the universe always exist and it is all just a meaningless chaotic sequence of events. Either way it doesn't rationally effect me, having one as a truth or the other doesn't lead to any conflict in thought processes as most religious institution have been determined to defend.

Peace

PS I also deeply accept the possibility that the universe doesn't exist at all, I am just entertaining myself.
Click to expand...

thats not exactly what i said. i said that if someone is able to solidly prove to me that my soul doesnt exist and i dont have one, i'll reevaluate my position. i didnt say that i would give up anything. i'll reevaluate to see it from another perspective and then i'll find my happy medium. there will be absolutely no giving up what i know, but i'll willingly accept new ideas as possible and not immediately discard them because they dont yet make sense to me or because i dont like them. at the current moment i have a soul. its been around for centuries, i have memories of the bodies my soul has been in in the past. i dont care if anyone believes me...its what i know to be absolutely true for myself and it exists in my reality. but im saying that even though at the current i know these things to be true, the future can change. im willing to be open to other possibilities even if they counter what i know now. i never said i'd give up anything. but i have said that i would compromise by being open to new ideas.
 
sarah22 said:
thats not exactly what i said. i said that if someone is able to solidly prove to me that my soul doesnt exist and i dont have one, i'll reevaluate my position. i didnt say that i would give up anything. i'll reevaluate to see it from another perspective and then i'll find my happy medium. there will be absolutely no giving up what i know, but i'll willingly accept new ideas as possible and not immediately discard them because they dont yet make sense to me or because i dont like them. at the current moment i have a soul. its been around for centuries, i have memories of the bodies my soul has been in in the past. i dont care if anyone believes me...its what i know to be absolutely true for myself and it exists in my reality. but im saying that even though at the current i know these things to be true, the future can change. im willing to be open to other possibilities even if they counter what i know now. i never said i'd give up anything. but i have said that i would compromise by being open to new ideas.
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That doesn't make any sense to me. You seem to be contradicting yourself a few times.

Truth is true because it's objective. You say "true to me" a few times in your explanation, but if it's true, in the real meaning of the word, it would be true for all of us. Your truth is the same as my truth, regardless of our personal beliefs.

Also, I was wondering why you believe in something unproven, the soul, until it's disproved? (when clearly something that doesn't exist cannot be shown to exist in reality only to be proved it doesn't exist... I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this, it's the exact same argument theists present for the existence of God).
 
PadawanBater said:

That doesn't make any sense to me. You seem to be contradicting yourself a few times.

Truth is true because it's objective. You say "true to me" a few times in your explanation, but if it's true, in the real meaning of the word, it would be true for all of us. Your truth is the same as my truth, regardless of our personal beliefs.

Also, I was wondering why you believe in something unproven, the soul, until it's disproved? (when clearly something that doesn't exist cannot be shown to exist in reality only to be proved it doesn't exist... I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this, it's the exact same argument theists present for the existence of God).
Click to expand...

thats where we differ in opinion. just because something is true for me, doesnt mean it will be true for another person. we dont all live in the same reality. i live in my reality and you live in yours. we have separate consciousnesses and therefore we're going to perceive reality differently. and like i've mentioned before, i use the word "soul" and "consciousness" interchangeably.

i know i sound contradictory to you...but to me it makes perfect sense lol. and really thats all that matters to me in the end. as long as i make sense to me, and i understand what i think and feel, it doesnt exactly matter that others dont understand.

science and faith will always contradict each other. i've found a way to live in the middle, so that i get equal parts of both. i found a way to resolve my inner conflict of science vs spirituality. i used to feel that everything has to be able to be proved by science in order for it to exist. i've experienced things recently (the last few years) that have shown me that, at least for the moment, science cannot explain every experience that i have. perhaps in the future they'll find some sort of explanation...but i cant predict the future, so im living moment to moment. and in this moment, i have a soul. maybe in another moment in the future i wont i dont know because the future isn't here yet. but right now, in this exact moment of space and time, i do.
 
sarah22 said:
thats where we differ in opinion. just because something is true for me, doesnt mean it will be true for another person. we dont all live in the same reality. i live in my reality and you live in yours. we have separate consciousnesses and therefore we're going to perceive reality differently. and like i've mentioned before, i use the word "soul" and "consciousness" interchangeably.

i know i sound contradictory to you...but to me it makes perfect sense lol. and really thats all that matters to me in the end. as long as i make sense to me, and i understand what i think and feel, it doesnt exactly matter that others dont understand.

science and faith will always contradict each other. i've found a way to live in the middle, so that i get equal parts of both. i found a way to resolve my inner conflict of science vs spirituality. i used to feel that everything has to be able to be proved by science in order for it to exist. i've experienced things recently (the last few years) that have shown me that, at least for the moment, science cannot explain every experience that i have. perhaps in the future they'll find some sort of explanation...but i cant predict the future, so im living moment to moment. and in this moment, i have a soul. maybe in another moment in the future i wont i dont know because the future isn't here yet. but right now, in this exact moment of space and time, i do.
Click to expand...
Don't worry. I don't think we're gonna be able to prove or disprove whether we have souls. Not any time soon anyways. Check this thread out. We had an interesting discussion about perception and reality:

https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/290727-perception-reality.html
 
doc111 said:
Don't worry. I don't think we're gonna be able to prove or disprove whether we have souls. Not any time soon anyways. Check this thread out. We had an interesting discussion about perception and reality:

https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/290727-perception-reality.html
Click to expand...

looks like a good thread, thanks Doc :D i'll check it out.

and actually i believe that quantum mechanics has attempted to somehow define the consciousness or the soul with the quantum immortality idea. they obviously cant prove it fully because someone would have to be willing to commit suicide to test the theory, but theres been a lot of info floating around about it. some agree with it and some dont...but thats the way the world will always be. we'll never be able to agree on everything.

proof is a funny thing. someone can prove that in *their* reality i dont have a soul...but i dont live in their reality, i live in my reality ;-)
 
sarah22 said:
....and actually i believe that quantum mechanics has attempted to somehow define the consciousness or the soul with the quantum immortality idea. .../QUOTE]

It has made strides, though not intentional the ability to observe is a force that cannot be ignored when creating a governing equation theory.... one of the grandfathers of QED commented on the similarities between it and eastern theology and mysticism.

To believe in quantum immortality you have to assume that : Permanent cessation of the consciousness, including the ability to observe, occurs at death. Otherwise the thought experiment falls apart.

Peace
Click to expand...
 
"This state of affairs is bound to remain paradoxical as long as we adopt the static few of composite 'objects' consisting of 'basic building blocks'. Only when the dynamic, relativistic view is adopted does the paradox disappear. The particles are then seen as dynamic patterns, or processes, which involve a certain amount of energy appearing to us as their mass. In a collision process, the energy of the two colliding particles is redistributed to form a new pattern, and if it has been increased by a sufficient amount of kinetic energy, this new pattern may involve additional particles." - The TAo of Physics

just finished watching "Masters of the Universe" on the Sci Channel, and they were discussing String theory and how the probabilities of 11 dimensions existing, even some as small as simple points curved like donuts in space. This is what they also speculate as the reason the force of gravity is weak because it passes through each dimension and is fairly weak on the plane we exist, or more less to say simply aware of...
 
Soul is superficial. It does not exist. What I believe that exist is something that I see. The concept on the existence of soul is just a product of man's thoughts and is purely out from the explanation of scientific studies.
 
Rodey said:
Soul is superficial. It does not exist. What I believe that exist is something that I see. The concept on the existence of soul is just a product of man's thoughts and is purely out from the explanation of scientific studies.
Click to expand...

uh excuse me? baking powder?....lol ---> "...the soul does not exist"


now, as Vincent Vega would say... "that's a bold statement."
 
it is a bold statement. but i can also understand how its bold for me to say that souls do exist. some people just arent spiritual. they dont believe in anything that they cant see or touch, and while i think thats a very sad way to look at the world and at ourselves, i cant tell them any different. its their choice. usually people who arent spiritual dont have any personal experiences to reference. i never used to be a spiritual person, then a whole lot of things started happening that i couldnt explain and i was no longer able to deny that there is more to me, the world and the universe than what i can see and touch.
 
I think it's just as illogical to say souls do exist or souls don't exist. Nobody knows for sure either way. Reality isn't subjective.
 
PadawanBater said:
I think it's just as illogical to say souls do exist or souls don't exist. Nobody knows for sure either way. Reality isn't subjective.
Click to expand...
How do you figure reality isn't subjective? I'd say that reality is very subjective. To say reality isn't subjective seems to me to be a typical arrogant human statement. The only thing each of us has to go on is our own perceptions which creates our individual realities. This, of course, is one of those things which can't really be proven or disproven and thus makes the subject moot. :blsmoke:
 
I agree with about everything sarah22 said in this thread. Reading through your posts on here I see that we have a lot in common and our beliefs are about the same.

I also used to be a pretty big skeptic and not really spiritual. I was always open minded, but sometimes you need to see proof for yourself to really believe. Years ago I had a series of experiences that couldnt be explained normally, which led to confusion and curiosity. The curiosity led to doing research to try and get to the bottom of the experiences. Ive now been doing research for years and have read up on most the spiritual and metaphysical topics, throughout the past years Ive continued to have more paranormal and supernatural experiences. These were not 'hallucinations' and 95% of the time the experiences have happened randomly, a few things I have made happen myself.

If I were to list every one of these experiences on here it would take hours, but I dont have the time and there are some that I really dont feel like talking about. But the experiences pretty much consist of: premonitions, having dreams and thoughts that actually occur later, astral projecting (again just 2 nights ago), lucid dreaming, seeing ghosts, UFOs, having the whole atmosphere of a place change when I enter and seeing lights dim or light up, having light bulbs blow up when I near them, feeling presences, seeing orbs, 'feeling' when people die (Ive known people died days before I found out), knowledge from past lives and universal knowledge from the akashic records and many other things. Ive actually had a head/brain mri and ct scan done and Ive been evaluated mentally in the past, nothing is wrong with me, and no Im not some weirdo making up things, hallucinating or trying to get attention. Im just a person who these experiences started happening to or maybe Im more in tune with then than the average person?

And what did I learn from all of this? all of these things are real. Ive done research on everything from the supernatural topics, conspiracies, string theory, aliens, spirit realm, etc most of it is true the hoaxes become obvious after a while. Over 90% of whats going on around us we cant notice normally. The physical plane which we exist on is very shallow and narrow compared to the whole picture, modern society keeps it even smaller. Im not sure of how much freedom we have as Ive noticed that almost everything happens for a reason and theres no such thing as a coincidence. A big part of it that Ive noticed with people who are more 'in tune' is simply the fact that they realize a lot of these things are happening while the same things could happen to others but they just dont realize the connection between things.

At the same time there is a "balance" which sarah22 also mentioned earlier that you have to keep between the physical and the spiritual (more deeper things, etc). Ive been on both sides of the fence, there were times where I was too much into the physical which can cause problems, and then there were times I was too much into those deep topics and the spiritual side which also caused problems to my life and health, especially 1-2 years ago. The physical plane existence can be seen as 'holographic' in the matrix, etc but its real as well.

I know this was long but relating back to the thread topic, you really have to experience and know for yourself like what happened with me and others like sarah22. There is a soul, there is definitely existence after your body dies and before you were born. When you research these topics I know they can be 'sobering' and 'scary', trust me I went through those phases to the extreme. Keep the balance, gain knowledge that your comfortable with, dont be scared, there is nothing to fear or panic about, live your life and just be the best you can be while having fun and enjoying your life.
 
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