What is this?

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Well they look like a bunch of long winded wrong people to me.
I won't fight you on the long winded part, something that I've been working on throughout the years, clearly unsucessfully.

Wrong though? Not the case.

If this were a fungal issue, OP would be experiencing this phenomenon throughout his entire substrate. Furthermore, it would be expressed throughout all of his pots/SIPs, be then 7, 15, or 30 gallons. And finally, do you know of any fungi that are "chalk like" in texture/consistency? And not only do these fungi have to be chalk/calcite like in nature, but they fungi in question would also have to grow solely around the OP's inputs. This is clearly not a fungi. In fact, it is basic knowledge that fungi tend to be more acidic in nature. Thus, OPs pH test wouldn't test so alkaline if this were a fungal related problem.

In my experience, people tend to throw out passive aggressive insults because they've no knowledge to hurl in it's place. Makes sense, considering you're ridiculing someone from taking wisdom from multiple sources. Hope your days go better my man.


Thanks for the response. Maybe some confusion but I use same tap water inside and out.
Thinking back when I transplanted into these outdoor sips. I added an extra shot of dolomite lime prior to,thinking tomatoes can use the extra.

Now not noticing this in my indoor cannabis sips. Is it possible they are consuming all the Ca? I can’t for sure say this same problem exists right now.But I’m top dressing quite often so I would think I would have noticed this by now. It was quite obvious on the outdoor sips once I lifted the lid off.
I’ll be checking soon. Will have to remove sand first.
That would be why there is residue there in the first place, actually. Because the plants are getting all of the Calcium they need from both your water source, and the liming agents.

The residue you're seeing is the Calcium in the Gaia Green mix that isn't being used, because your plants are getting all the Ca they need from the water+lime. As a result of this, there is nothing to process the Ca in the Gaia Green, and it is left there unused.

It's kind of funny actually, in a normal overhead water grow you would have never seen this. The water would have "pushed" all of the Ca residue in the soil, and you'd have never even known this was an issue in the first place. But, because you run SIPs, it is technically a "bottom watering", correct? As such, you're even more likely to see unused Ca residue from the Gaia Green blends, because you aren't top watering and pushing it down into the soil.

Huge boon in your favor, IMO. Now you know that its enough of an issue to cause something to not disappear into your soil. There's an imbalance. Again, no big deal, this is the perfect time and way to know there's issues afoot in the future.

I mean, your weed and tomatoes look amazing after all. I'd just hate to see you (or anyone else) be like me and experience the heartache of finding out all of the above I mentioned the hard way. No pun intended, lol.

Regards.
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
I won't fight you on the long winded part, something that I've been working on throughout the years, clearly unsucessfully.

Wrong though? Not the case.

If this were a fungal issue, OP would be experiencing this phenomenon throughout his entire substrate. Furthermore, it would be expressed throughout all of his pots/SIPs, be then 7, 15, or 30 gallons. And finally, do you know of any fungi that are "chalk like" in texture/consistency? And not only do these fungi have to be chalk/calcite like in nature, but they fungi in question would also have to grow solely around the OP's inputs. This is clearly not a fungi. In fact, it is basic knowledge that fungi tend to be more acidic in nature. Thus, OPs pH test wouldn't test so alkaline if this were a fungal related problem.

In my experience, people tend to throw out passive aggressive insults because they've no knowledge to hurl in it's place. Makes sense, considering you're ridiculing someone from taking wisdom from multiple sources. Hope your days go better my man.




That would be why there is residue there in the first place, actually. Because the plants are getting all of the Calcium they need from both your water source, and the liming agents.

The residue you're seeing is the Calcium in the Gaia Green mix that isn't being used, because your plants are getting all the Ca they need from the water+lime. As a result of this, there is nothing to process the Ca in the Gaia Green, and it is left there unused.

It's kind of funny actually, in a normal overhead water grow you would have never seen this. The water would have "pushed" all of the Ca residue in the soil, and you'd have never even known this was an issue in the first place. But, because you run SIPs, it is technically a "bottom watering", correct? As such, you're even more likely to see unused Ca residue from the Gaia Green blends, because you aren't top watering and pushing it down into the soil.

Huge boon in your favor, IMO. Now you know that its enough of an issue to cause something to not disappear into your soil. There's an imbalance. Again, no big deal, this is the perfect time and way to know there's issues afoot in the future.

I mean, your weed and tomatoes look amazing after all. I'd just hate to see you (or anyone else) be like me and experience the heartache of finding out all of the above I mentioned the hard way. No pun intended, lol.

Regards.
He said it's right where he top dressed so that makes sense. But so does beneficial fungi. Not questioning you though man. You know your shit.
 

lusidghost

Well-Known Member
I won't fight you on the long winded part, something that I've been working on throughout the years, clearly unsucessfully.

Wrong though? Not the case.

If this were a fungal issue, OP would be experiencing this phenomenon throughout his entire substrate. Furthermore, it would be expressed throughout all of his pots/SIPs, be then 7, 15, or 30 gallons. And finally, do you know of any fungi that are "chalk like" in texture/consistency? And not only do these fungi have to be chalk/calcite like in nature, but they fungi in question would also have to grow solely around the OP's inputs. This is clearly not a fungi. In fact, it is basic knowledge that fungi tend to be more acidic in nature. Thus, OPs pH test wouldn't test so alkaline if this were a fungal related problem.

In my experience, people tend to throw out passive aggressive insults because they've no knowledge to hurl in it's place. Makes sense, considering you're ridiculing someone from taking wisdom from multiple sources. Hope your days go better my man.




That would be why there is residue there in the first place, actually. Because the plants are getting all of the Calcium they need from both your water source, and the liming agents.

The residue you're seeing is the Calcium in the Gaia Green mix that isn't being used, because your plants are getting all the Ca they need from the water+lime. As a result of this, there is nothing to process the Ca in the Gaia Green, and it is left there unused.

It's kind of funny actually, in a normal overhead water grow you would have never seen this. The water would have "pushed" all of the Ca residue in the soil, and you'd have never even known this was an issue in the first place. But, because you run SIPs, it is technically a "bottom watering", correct? As such, you're even more likely to see unused Ca residue from the Gaia Green blends, because you aren't top watering and pushing it down into the soil.

Huge boon in your favor, IMO. Now you know that its enough of an issue to cause something to not disappear into your soil. There's an imbalance. Again, no big deal, this is the perfect time and way to know there's issues afoot in the future.

I mean, your weed and tomatoes look amazing after all. I'd just hate to see you (or anyone else) be like me and experience the heartache of finding out all of the above I mentioned the hard way. No pun intended, lol.

Regards.
My apologies. Look at the other thread where I posted a picture of what I believe to be the same white substance on coco using Jacks and Blumats.
 

lusidghost

Well-Known Member
It's kind of funny actually, in a normal overhead water grow you would have never seen this. The water would have "pushed" all of the Ca residue in the soil, and you'd have never even known this was an issue in the first place. But, because you run SIPs, it is technically a "bottom watering", correct? As such, you're even more likely to see unused Ca residue from the Gaia Green blends, because you aren't top watering and pushing it down into the soil.
That is kind of funny.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
My apologies. Look at the other thread where I posted a picture of what I believe to be the same white substance on coco using Jacks and Blumats.
And my sincerest apologies if I came across as contentious as well.

Fungus is a definite possibility, however, the question is what would suddenly cause fungi to appear at the exact location of the top dress? That never appeared there before?

And, OP pointed out specifically that the substance in question was chalk like in nature. He also posted pH tests that confirmed alkaline pH.

Fungi was definitely something I first considered, however, OP described something "chalk like" in consistency.

Certain top dresses will potentially attract fungi, that's true. However, I don't believe that's what is going on here. If this was fungi, it wouldn't be "chalk like" and "crumble".

It also would have manifested itself sooner than this if it were fungi.

All of the above leads me to believe that the residue in question is in fact calcitic in nature. The only question is whether it is in the form of Gypsum or Calcium Carbonate (from the Oyster Shell Flower).

I very well could be mistaken, and I also see how one could believe it is fungal colonization. But the thing is, fungal colonization would have manifested itself far before this thread took place. OP would have seen it in prior top dresses, this wouldn't have been a "surprise" if this were fungi.

Regards.
 

lusidghost

Well-Known Member
The reason I believe it is a fungus is because it only happened to the pots which were overwatered. Some of them were cut back and it stopped forming one I removed or covered the top layer. The root systems of the overwatered pots were weak and the plants never lived up to full potential.

My issue was using too small of pots while attempting to figure out the Blumats. They would dry out quickly, so the fine tuning had to be more accurate. Once I got them to finally stay wet I went with it until I saw the white stuff.

It took me a long time to realize that the pot required much less moisture than when I would hand feed them once or twice a day. The difference is there isn’t a drying out cycle with the Blumats. They seem to prefer only enough moisture to keep the roots wet enough for uptake.

But I could also be wrong. Can a sip system be setup to wick too much water? How do you set it to the desired moisture level?
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
The reason I believe it is a fungus is because it only happened to the pots which were overwatered. Some of them were cut back and it stopped forming one I removed or covered the top layer. The root systems of the overwatered pots were weak and the plants never lived up to full potential.

My issue was using too small of pots while attempting to figure out the Blumats. They would dry out quickly, so the fine tuning had to be more accurate. Once I got them to finally stay wet I went with it until I saw the white stuff.

It took me a long time to realize that the pot required much less moisture than when I would hand feed them once or twice a day. The difference is there isn’t a drying out cycle with the Blumats. They seem to prefer only enough moisture to keep the roots wet enough for uptake.

But I could also be wrong. Can a sip system be setup to wick too much water? How do you set it to the desired moisture level?
Yeah, that white mold will appear when plants are overwatered, or sometimes the mold will cover a top dress. Usually, white mold isn't a bad thing, and is a sign of having good fungi in your soil to the point where it is manifesting in the form of a mycellium "web" so to speak. If you look up photos of "mycellium", it looks similar to the photos you posted above.

SIPs provide moisture content very similar to that of Blumats. The desired water levels are controlled via those PVC pipes you see sticking out of people's SIPs. Water is poured into the PVC pipe or used soda bottle, so that one can see the amount of moisture in the perlite/wicking material.

While a SIP usually won't wick too much water on it's own, possible overwatering can happen if the SIP is sitting in water and not on the perlite exclusively. The peat moss/coco is like a sponge, and in a SIP environment will only absorb as much water as it needs and nothing more. SIPs are great, but I've also heard nothing but good things about the Blumats!



He said it's right where he top dressed so that makes sense. But so does beneficial fungi. Not questioning you though man. You know your shit.
Definitely don't know everything, that's for sure.

OP is pretty experienced from what I've seen, and I believe would readily recognize the substance in question as mold if it were in fact mold. Most of us have seen plenty of fungi webs in our day, so I don't believe someone could mistake "chalk like residue" for fungi.

I totally could be wrong, however the residue in question is described very similar to that of Calcium. OP pH testing the residue in question, and showing 8.0 on the pH test he posted does make me believe the substance in question is calcitic in nature, however.

OP also described issues related to his smaller pots that don't exist in his larger ones, at least not yet. The scaling I get on fabric pots always manifests itself on the smaller pots (under 5g) before it does the larger ones (over 5g).

I'll have to find one of my old pots and take a photo of it, the residue on the pots looks exactly like what is pictured. Just my thoughts.
 

lusidghost

Well-Known Member
Yeah, that white mold will appear when plants are overwatered, or sometimes the mold will cover a top dress. Usually, white mold isn't a bad thing, and is a sign of having good fungi in your soil to the point where it is manifesting in the form of a mycellium "web" so to speak. If you look up photos of "mycellium", it looks similar to the photos you posted above.

SIPs provide moisture content very similar to that of Blumats. The desired water levels are controlled via those PVC pipes you see sticking out of people's SIPs. Water is poured into the PVC pipe or used soda bottle, so that one can see the amount of moisture in the perlite/wicking material.

While a SIP usually won't wick too much water on it's own, possible overwatering can happen if the SIP is sitting in water and not on the perlite exclusively. The peat moss/coco is like a sponge, and in a SIP environment will only absorb as much water as it needs and nothing more. SIPs are great, but I've also heard nothing but good things about the Blumats!





Definitely don't know everything, that's for sure.

OP is pretty experienced from what I've seen, and I believe would readily recognize the substance in question as mold if it were in fact mold. Most of us have seen plenty of fungi webs in our day, so I don't believe someone could mistake "chalk like residue" for fungi.

I totally could be wrong, however the residue in question is described very similar to that of Calcium. OP pH testing the residue in question, and showing 8.0 on the pH test he posted does make me believe the substance in question is calcitic in nature, however.

OP also described issues related to his smaller pots that don't exist in his larger ones, at least not yet. The scaling I get on fabric pots always manifests itself on the smaller pots (under 5g) before it does the larger ones (over 5g).

I'll have to find one of my old pots and take a photo of it, the residue on the pots looks exactly like what is pictured. Just my thoughts.
If you're talking about the white stuff on the sides of fabric pots, I totally agree with you. It's most likely salt buildup from evaporation.
 

myke

Well-Known Member
Sample settled over night you can see it on the bottom. I added vinegar to the sample last night. Test this morning shows green. Now I may have had one or 4 too many last night. So I’ll do it over to confirm. 54515469-F4D5-456F-9220-CFD214849F96.jpegF5D22142-9E25-42CF-AA32-1300B2403AB3.jpeg
 

Weedvin

Well-Known Member
Looks kind of like Calcium sediment, but I'm trying to figure out how that would even make sense. Looks just like what you'd see in a bag of gypsum, or the scaling on my faucets. Got a few questions to ask to hopefully get an idea of what it is, but I have a theory.

You mentioned this was your outdoor SIP, does your outdoor SIP get different water than your indoor ones? If its tap water, do you know the PPMs of it? Hard or soft?

Do you use rain water, or did rain water get into your outdoor SIP?

Do you use anything else besides Gaia green in your soil? Anything at all?

Any notable differences between your indoor and outdoor SIPs? Ingredients, water, literally anything, no matter how seemingly silly or small.

I'm guessing this is the first time you've seen this in any of your SIPs/grows?




Consider everything below is just my theory. I don't really believe there is much cause for alarm here, however one can never know too much and will be more on guard and vigilant. If that sediment has been there for a couple months and you haven't experienced any issues, you likely won't ever experience any issues.



According to the Gaia website, the 4-4-4 has 12% Ca and the 4-8-2 has 16%, which is strange because the 4-4-4 has Gypsum and OSF, so I'd think the 4-8-2 would have less Ca since it only has Gypsum, but I digress.

12-16% Ca is quite a bit of Calcium, especially when this is combined with your soil's buffering agent. Not only does your soil have Ca coming from the Gaia Green, but your Lime/OSF as well.

I had to stop using Crab Meal for this exact reason, has between 11-18% Ca depending on the brand. Way too much Calcium, fact is, if we're using dolomite lime or even OSF, that should provide all the Calcium we will ever need. My well water has loads of limestone/calcium carbonate in it, so I haven't used any other Calcium inputs in years. Kind of crazy just how many of these organic mixes have 10%+ Ca content for literally no reason. Why any of these companies would throw OSF in an organic amendment blend is absolutely beyond me.


The reason this sediment is likely appearing is due to the fact that the plants aren't using the Calcium from the Gaia Green anymore because there is already enough Calcium in the soil. The plant is pulling Calcium from your buffer agent, and possibly your water (depending on the source). As a result of this, the Calcium in your Gaia Green has gone unworked because it is now extra.

Thankfully, gypsum is a sulfate and not a carbonate, so excessive amounts won't harm one's soil too much. Think of Calcium Carbonate just the same as you would scaling on a faucet. The faucet doesn't immediately get covered in scaling, it happens over a gradual process.

Did you notice any issues with this particular grow that you never noticed before? Signs of deficiencies/toxicities that you've never encountered before? Anything different?

Maybe scoop some of that up, mix it with some water, and pH it? If the pH comes out 7.5 or above, the sediment is very likely Calcium. However, to find out if the Calcium is a Carbonate, we simply need to check if the water buffers or not after 24-48 hours. Once you've tested the sediment+water slurry and it shows a 7.5+ pH, dunk vinegar, lemon or lime juice into the pH solution until it shows a 4.0-5.0 pH.

If in 24-48 hours the pH is still acidic, the sediment is likely gypsum as it isn't buffering the pH. If the pH buffers back to 7.0+, the sediment is likely the OSF/Calcium Carbonate from the Gaia Green mix.

Since the pile is appearing where you top dressed your Gaia Green, my theory is that what you're seeing is the now unused Calcium from either the Gypsum or the OSF that Gaia Green has in it.

If the sediment is gypsum, you likely won't be seeing any issues.

If the sediment is OSF, be mindful of this and on the lookout for potential issues related to excess Calcium/excess Carbonate. Excess Ca will lock out Mg, K, and even P. If the Ca source is a carbonate, it will excessively buffer your soil in combination with your liming agent, resulting in alkaline pH of 8.0 and above. Should any of these symptoms manifest, the issue is excess Calcium/buffering agents.

It might be worth looking into new amendment blends, ones that don't have such high Calcium contents in it. Be mindful, not all companies advertise their Calcium contents. Checking the ingredients of these blends for things like OSF, Crab/crustacean meals, Bone meals, gypsum, and so forth.



tl:dr: There is likely no cause for concern here, however there are still things worth being on the lookout for. Just in case. It's very likely nothing, just unused gypsum or OSF from your Gaia blends. Be on the look out for potential issues that could arise, such as phantom deficiencies/toxicities from alkaline pH levels, or sudden Mg and/or K lockouts. Should either of those things start to manifest themselves, it might be time to look for new organic blends that don't have such high Ca levels.

Not trying to make you, or anyone else paranoid. This is likely nothing, especially if you haven't experienced any issues in these past couple of months with that sediment there. Never hurts to know the above though.

Regards.
Much too complicated wow. Everything has been created by God, use it ( COMPOST )
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the response. Maybe some confusion but I use same tap water inside and out.
Thinking back when I transplanted into these outdoor sips. I added an extra shot of dolomite lime prior to,thinking tomatoes can use the extra.

Now not noticing this in my indoor cannabis sips. Is it possible they are consuming all the Ca? I can’t for sure say this same problem exists right now.But I’m top dressing quite often so I would think I would have noticed this by now. It was quite obvious on the outdoor sips once I lifted the lid off.
I’ll be checking soon. Will have to remove sand first.
That extra lime in the tomato SIP could be why that SIP is the only one showing residue where the top dress once was. I can't really think of any other reason it would be there, but not in your other SIPs.

Could it be possible that the residue in question is actually that extra shot of dolomite lime you're referring to? If you top dress things in the same spot, I could see how you'd toss the lime in that same spot too.

That's the only reason I can think of that this residue would only exist in your tomato SIP, but not the others.


Sample settled over night you can see it on the bottom. I added vinegar to the sample last night. Test this morning shows green. Now I may have had one or 4 too many last night. So I’ll do it over to confirm. View attachment 5015882View attachment 5015883
Same exact process and timing on the pH color change as when I did this with my well water. It goes from red to light green overnight, give it the rest of the day and that light green will likely be the same dark green it was last night.

The fact that you're experiencing the same pH changes as I do with my calcified well water leads me to believe that the residue in question is that extra shot of dolomite lime you hit the plants with.

Could be wrong, but that's what its looking like to me.
 

myke

Well-Known Member
That extra lime in the tomato SIP could be why that SIP is the only one showing residue where the top dress once was. I can't really think of any other reason it would be there, but not in your other SIPs.

Could it be possible that the residue in question is actually that extra shot of dolomite lime you're referring to? If you top dress things in the same spot, I could see how you'd toss the lime in that same spot too.

That's the only reason I can think of that this residue would only exist in your tomato SIP, but not the others.




Same exact process and timing on the pH color change as when I did this with my well water. It goes from red to light green overnight, give it the rest of the day and that light green will likely be the same dark green it was last night.

The fact that you're experiencing the same pH changes as I do with my calcified well water leads me to believe that the residue in question is that extra shot of dolomite lime you hit the plants with.

Could be wrong, but that's what its looking like to me.
The extra dolomite lime was mixed in a wheelbarrow prior to filling the sips. It also didn’t have any clumps like I’m finding.
So sample again this morning was red pink. Just got home and it’s yellowish now. F6512118-DA29-4C87-9B88-4451489D0138.jpegStill haven’t had a chance to dig through my inside sips to see.
So going with excess calcium. This is good timing as I’ll be harvesting soon and my soil thats had two rounds already was amended with a bunch of Gaia 2.5 months ago. So I’ll need to dilute it down a little. I’ll mix up some pro mix with frass, kelp and alfalfa and mix with the others stuff.
Did a ph test on it also. Looks about 6.5-7.
 

myke

Well-Known Member
A pic I found of the last top dress watered in a little.Exactly where my clumps are.Was covered with EWC and undisturbed for 2 months.aug 8 139.JPG
 

myke

Well-Known Member
Ok so after a few days the ph tests have gone back to dark green. 91AFD2FD-E298-4254-89FD-38470E64CFEB.jpegSo I’ve never done ph tests this long.
Normally just do the test read the colour and done.
Is this a true reading? If I were to test some other soil and the colour goes darker green over two days. Which is the correct reading? The immediate one or the two days one.
 

myke

Well-Known Member
So thanks to @kratos015 wonderful post. We can assume the calcium is a carbonate since the ph went back to alkaline. Thanks for your help man. I think it’s a mixture of the lime I added and the Gaia??I’ll be looking into different inputs now for my indoor sips.
Still haven’t looked at my indoor sips. Once I harvest I’ll be able to do a better inspection.
 
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