Yesterday's Mass Shooting.

Fogdog said:

That's comforting to know.

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I’m not trying to be a wiseass (this time). We have our plate pretty full dealing with the existing weapons; this one is gonna get lost in the distressingly high noise floor.

Fogdog said:

When the death rates in mass shootings goes up, I'll be concerned.

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Uvalde was 19..how many more per shooting do we need, Fog?

DoubleAtotheRON said:

I was just simply stating the at one point, we had better screening, training, and required classes before you could carry a handgun... now it's just like the Wild West, anybody can carry now without a lic or training or background checks, so we're moving backwards. Anyways... back to mowing.

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I wonder who made it that way? No need to answer..you voted them in.

cannabineer said:

I’m not trying to be a wiseass (this time). We have our plate pretty full dealing with the existing weapons; this one is gonna get lost in the distressingly high noise floor.

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I only know what I can read on the subject. Just saying, you have your opinion, others have opinions that differ. It's going to happen. These guns will start showing up in the hands of mass shooters that purportedly can defeat nearly all armor currently used by police and do it at greater distance than the current favorite, the military style assault weapons.

I'm just wondering why people don't care. You provided a reason. But it still doesn't make sense to me that we should introduce a rifle to civilians with not even the excuse of being better at self defense than a hand gun that can kill an officer at 1000 yards even if he's wearing body armor. None of this makes sense to me. Maybe we should consider stopping this from going into mass production for civilian use.

schuylaar said:

Uvalde was 19..how many more per shooting do we need, Fog?

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I didn't have my sarcasm font switched on when I said that.

cannabineer said:

I doubt they will. The new thing is tuned toward evolving military needs. For killing lotsa civilians in a short time, the AR platform is hard to beat.

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Many a gun of war over the years killed many civilians, M14, M1 Grand, M1 Tanker to name a few, those just aren't being produced by every Paul, Dick and Harry gun manufacturer any longer.

Fogdog said:

I didn't have my sarcasm font switched on when I said that.

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And your doubleactionjackson friend will still vote Right while telling you from another side of his mouth, make it stop..I dunno why..

schuylaar said:

And your doubleactionjackson friend will still vote Right while telling you from another side of his mouth, make it stop..I dunno why..

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My favorite is when he stated bluntly that the carnage will never stop and then wondered how kids could have become so numb to violence.

It's not funny but the way he compartmentalized his belief about gun violence from his pearl clutching over those kids who he claimed were "numb" to violence gave me a sardonic laugh.

Fogdog said:

kill an officer at 1000 yards even if he's wearing body armor.

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I think this bit is hyperbole.

The 120-year-old Springfield rifle carries more energy farther than the new thing, and at all ranges. An officer (heck, even enlisted) in body armor at 1000 yards will likely not be injured unless the shot hits unprotected flesh.

We’re not facing a step up in lethality.

I’m not saying this to exonerate the new gun. However, the AR in its multiple civilian elaborations is something I’d choose over it for a number of reasons, were I planning something awful.

farmingfisherman said:

Many a gun of war over the years killed many civilians, M14, M1 Grand, M1 Tanker to name a few, those just aren't being produced by every Paul, Dick and Harry gun manufacturer any longer.

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yep, men will see those things in the hands of young men with ripped bodies and want that gun. Which, for the most part, will amount to nothing more that seeing a fat guy with an expensive gun wearing camo that shows a bit too much belly. Meanwhile people will die and their mamas will cry.

cannabineer said:

I think this bit is hyperbole.

The 120-year-old Springfield rifle carries more energy farther than the new thing, and at all ranges. An officer (heck, even enlisted) in body armor at 1000 yards will likely not be injured unless the shot hits unprotected flesh.

We’re not facing a step up in lethality.

I’m not saying this to exonerate the new gun. However, the AR in its multiple civilian elaborations is something I’d choose over it for a number of reasons, were I planning something awful.

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Said it right there in the article. You have no basis for disputing it. His argument against the gun was its killing power for armored police than mass murder.

I'm wondering why we should be OK with that.

Fogdog said:

Said it right there in the article. You have no basis for disputing it. His argument against the gun was its killing power for armored police than mass murder.

I'm wondering why we should be OK with that.

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“It can be accurate up to 1000 yards and have the power to punch through almost all body armor” but not both at the same time.

In this instance I daresay you drew a bad conclusion from a badly-worded article written by a journalist who probably does not own a rifle of any sort.

cannabineer said:

“It can be accurate up to 1000 yards and have the power to punch through almost all body armor” but not both at the same time.

In this instance I daresay you drew a bad conclusion from a badly-worded article written by a journalist who probably does not own a rifle of any sort.

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Ok, point taken. So argue about unimportant minutia. The main point is this weapon was designed to defeat the kind of body armor used by our police at greater range. Maybe it's the bullet design and not necessarily the gun that is designed to accept that round. The two taken together are said to be more effective at defeating police body armor.

I'm wondering why people are OK with that.

The question is why society is so broken that people need to go about armed and looking like soldiers with body armor in the middle of a peaceful civil society. The next question is why it is permitted and no, the 2nd amendment doesn't have anything to do with it, the feds can regulate and tax the shit out of existence. I guess ya just need to elect more democrats until the can do something about it, because there is much that can be done, even with the current SCOTUS, unless they wanna play legal pretzel on the floor and have themselves tied in logical knots.

Fogdog said:

Ok, point taken. So argue about unimportant minutia. The main point is this weapon was designed to defeat the kind of body armor used by our police at greater range. Maybe it's the bullet design and not necessarily the gun that is designed to accept that round. The two taken together are said to be more effective at defeating police body armor.

I'm wondering why people are OK with that.

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I did some reading just now about body armor and the Fury cartridge. To work as advertised, it needs a special round containing a carbide pin. Afaik it falls under the “cop-killer bullet” Federal proscription. Our troops will get that round, but not civilian merchants.

An old Galil or HK-91 or the aforementioned Garand with civilian-available bullets is as deadly -and as heavy. Cop body armor is good against 9mm and 45, but is not spec’d for rifle energies.

cannabineer said:

I did some reading just now about body armor and the Fury cartridge. To work as advertised, it needs a special round containing a carbide pin. Afaik it falls under the “cop-killer bullet” Federal proscription. Our troops will get that round, but not civilian merchants.

An old Galil or HK-91 or the aforementioned Garand with civilian-available bullets is as deadly -and as heavy. Cop body armor is good against 9mm and 45, but is not spec’d for rifle energies.

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The rate of fire is important, no?

Its good to know that the Fury cartridge will not make it to the consumer market.

Fogdog said:

The rate of fire is important, no?

Its good to know that the Fury cartridge will not make it to the consumer market.

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Oh, the cartridge will. The armor-piercing bullet won’t.

cannabineer said:

Oh, the cartridge will. The armor-piercing bullet won’t.

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Oh thanks, that was such an important point.

cannabineer said:

I did some reading just now about body armor and the Fury cartridge. To work as advertised, it needs a special round containing a carbide pin. Afaik it falls under the “cop-killer bullet” Federal proscription. Our troops will get that round, but not civilian merchants.

An old Galil or HK-91 or the aforementioned Garand with civilian-available bullets is as deadly -and as heavy. Cop body armor is good against 9mm and 45, but is not spec’d for rifle energies.

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That's the same thing they did with the FN 5.7 and the FN PS90. They were demonized as cop killer guns but it was a specific round that defeated the body armor. I love my 5.7 it even has 30 round magazines not to shabby for a handgun.

Fogdog said:

Ok, point taken. So argue about unimportant minutia. The main point is this weapon was designed to defeat the kind of body armor used by our police at greater range. Maybe it's the bullet design and not necessarily the gun that is designed to accept that round. The two taken together are said to be more effective at defeating police body armor.

I'm wondering why people are OK with that.

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They've been wanting a bigger round for awhile. It's not just about body armor. The AK has more knockdown power than the M4 or AR15. But the M4 is more accurate. It's always a compromise. It has nothing to do with penetrating police body armor.