base nutrients grow

BASE NUTRIENTS OR THE WHOLE NUTRIENT LINE

  • BASE NUTES

    Votes: 18 72.0%

  • USE BASE AND ALL THE OTHER NUTES

    Votes: 7 28.0%
  • Total voters
    25
skunkushybrid01

skunkushybrid01

Well-Known Member
basically a plant will suberise to a certain extent. if the plant's salinity tolerance is broken, then it is fucked. osmotic pressure is reversed and the water is pulled from the plant.


some plants have a low suberisation ability and therefore will not be able to take much salt. Raspberries for example can only handle an EC of 2.0.

tomatoes and broccoli have a moderate salt tolerance of 6.0... cannabis is around there too... with sativas coming in at the low end of the scale and indicas coming at the higher end, possibly as high as 8.0EC. it is also worth noting that salinity tolerance is directly related to drought tolerance.... in that a salinity tolerant plant will also have excellent drought tolerance.
 
skunkushybrid01

skunkushybrid01

Well-Known Member
you agree that cannabis has a salinity toletrance of 6.0-8.0EC?

I'm glad you've finally seen sense... only took me several posts and links from a highly distinguished professor. where has homebrewer disappeared to? i've actually linked this thread at another forum where i ran a thread, 65 pages long on this subject. There was a guy int hat thread too arguing the case using pre-2009 knowledge.. but in all fairness to him this was actually in 2009. it's now 2011, i thought all of this was common knowledge now. Obviously not on weed forums it isn't... well most of them. it's well known on mine.
 
homebrewer

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
skunkushybrid01 said:
you agree that cannabis has a salinity toletrance of 6.0-8.0EC?

I'm glad you've finally seen sense... only took me several posts and links from a highly distinguished professor. where has homebrewer disappeared to? i've actually linked this thread at another forum where i ran a thread, 65 pages long on this subject. There was a guy int hat thread too arguing the case using pre-2009 knowledge.. but in all fairness to him this was actually in 2009. it's now 2011, i thought all of this was common knowledge now. Obviously not on weed forums it isn't... well most of them. it's well known on mine.
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I figured you embarrassed yourself enough incorrectly drawing your own conclusions from a paper that makes no reference to high salinity, nutrient burn or nutrient ratios. The statements you've made in this thread are outrageous and no one is drinking your koolaid.
 
hellraizer30

hellraizer30

Rebel From The North
skunkushybrid01 said:
There is no such thing as over fertilising a plant. You can only over fertilise the medium. Most people get that part confused... they're told that plants can take toxic amounts of nutrients and that the symptroms of this are burning. Not quite right. What happens is that the medium gets salty, much saltier than you'll probably believe it needs to too, and this slows down K transport. So the plant starts to struggle to take K. the burning is actually necrosis caused by a K deficiency.
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For real this is a completly bs statement and would advise you to go back to the basics!
I need not say anymore
 
skunkushybrid01

skunkushybrid01

Well-Known Member
Here, we present direct genetic evidence establishing that suberin in the roots plays a critical role in controlling both water and mineral ion uptake and transport to the leaves.
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LOL.

this is like being attacked by a bunch of invalids. You cannot see how that relates to nutrient ratios? nutrient burn does not exist it is not a scientific term....

High salinity is related to this as obvioulsy this article is in concern of nutrient take up ignoring ratios, so a warning needs to be there about high salinity. I can't believe you know absolutely nothing.... surely you realise that a high saline medium slows K transport? do i need to prove that fact to you too?
 
skunkushybrid01

skunkushybrid01

Well-Known Member
suberin is also just one of the barriers. plants actually need to send carriers to collect the ions in the first place. in a high nutrient environment plants will slow down the carriers, in a low one the carriers will be increased... however that is a little more complex than it sounds as plants need the energy gained from nutrients to make those carriers in the first place. Did i mention casparian strip?
 
burrr

burrr

Active Member
Do you mod over at skunkschool?
I would love to see some of your 4 EC grows, but first you have to get an EC meter.
It would be a great comparison, I'll grow at 420 ppm. You can do 4200 ppm.
 
homebrewer

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
burrr said:
Do you mod over at skunkschool?
I would love to see some of your 4 EC grows, but first you have to get an EC meter.
It would be a great comparison, I'll grow at 420 ppm. You can do 4200 ppm.
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I seriously think he's trolling but I would love to see a 4.0 EC grow. $100 says the plants don't last a week.
 
hellraizer30

hellraizer30

Rebel From The North
4.0 ec is stupid ive trted for the hell of it to see where I could take it and 2.5 was it if I left it it would of been death so 4.0 dude I think
you need to change what your smoking cuz rubber cement aint working for you :)
 
skunkushybrid01

skunkushybrid01

Well-Known Member
burrr said:
Do you mod over at skunkschool?
I would love to see some of your 4 EC grows, but first you have to get an EC meter.
It would be a great comparison, I'll grow at 420 ppm. You can do 4200 ppm.
Click to expand...
No I don't mod at that site. LOL

I use a Blue Labs truncheon... i have experience growing in soil, coco and water. I have grown countless strains as I ran a perpetual SoG where i usually had around 10 mother plants at a time. To juggle the feeds on such a grow would be impossible... so i used to feed everything the same (on a per feed basis). mother plants, veg'ing plants and flowering plants would all get the same food. as the plants are in 4" pots i had to feed often twice per day. Not to mention my actual over fertilisation experiments themselves, where i started seedlings in 3.2EC, 2.4EC and 1.4EC to test the different reactions. the seedlings in the 3.2EC concentration grew thicker stems, tighter nodes and had generally better cell division than the seedlings in the 2.4 and 1.4EC concentrations. also the seedlings in the 2.4EC concentration grew better than the seedlings started in the 1.4EC concentration.

Conclude from that what you will... probably nothing, but what can you do, eh?

WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. - While proving a long-held theory that suberin blocks water and nutrient absorption in plants, a Purdue University scientist learned more about manipulating the substance to better feed plants.
It has long been believed that suberin, a waxy substance between some plant cells, acts as a barrier for the movement of water in a plant's roots. David E. Salt, a professor of plant molecular physiology, discovered a mutant form of the plant Arabidopsis - enhanced suberin 1 or ESB1 - with twice as much suberin as wild varieties, giving him a way to test the theory.
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LOL.... this was all discovered back in 09. I think May... by September I had learned of it myself and suddenly everything made perfect sense. This is all just scratching the surface.... plants have more to them than we or even science can imagine right now, much, much more. The trouble with science is that it will make up answers based on information that has most likely been incorrectly gathered. At one time science declared the world was flat.
 
skunkushybrid01

skunkushybrid01

Well-Known Member
have I pointed out the difference between hydro and soil in this thread yet?

In hydro you don't need to feed as high of a concentration as you do in soil or coco... this is because hardly any nutrients are lost through evaporation, none through seepage and very little through lock-out. In a hydroponic reservoir, you're wasting nutrients if you ever use higher than 1.6EC. 1.6EC is good to use throughout the entire flower cycle in a hydroponic grow.

In soil, 3.2EC concentrations should be available at the mid point of flower, or indeed maintained throughout the entire grow... but that would be all but impossible. playing the add-back game in soil can be done, but you have no real way of knowing what is left in the soil.
 
skunkushybrid01

skunkushybrid01

Well-Known Member
When a bear finds a rich patch of berries, it gorges for a while but moves on before cleaning out all the fruit. It is the same with deer that wander into a rich meadow: They stop and graze, but leave before devouring every shoot.
Two researchers at the University of Alberta have found that plants have similar foraging strategies. They get their nutrients from their root tips, and it is well documented that roots produce more tips when they hit a patch of nutrient-rich soil. Using an underground camera to study yarrow, a common Alberta plant, James Cahill and Gordon McNickle found that the roots move on before those rich patches get depleted.
"All organisms when they find a patch of resources will stay there, but they won't stay there forever," Dr. Cahill says.
He and his colleague argue that this is plant behaviour, a controversial notion among animal biologists but one Dr. Cahill says is bolstered by evidence that plants do things such as eavesdrop on each other and can detect the chemical compounds their neighbours release when under attack from hungry cater-pillars so they can marshal their own defences.
This is behaviour without cognition, Dr. Cahill explains, and by studying it he hopes to learn more about behaviour in all organisms.
"It is behaviour, but it is created by mechanisms we aren't used to. Plants behave through growth. We behave through temporary muscle movement."
It turns out humans have something in common with plants when it comes to how we fill our plates. "At a buffet, no one wants to take the last piece of meat on the tray," Dr. Cahill says. "Especially if there is a big, full tray nearby. They will move over to that one."
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/technology/science/plant-behaviour-how-they-eat-is-similar-to-people-at-a-buffet-table/article1214997/

As i said earlier Suberin is just one way a plant keeps salts out. obvioulsy if you could overfeed a plant then giving a seedling 3.2EC (in coco) should kill it outright. LOL. it isn't logical.... in fact in 3.2EC the seedling will respond better than ever ;)
 
burrr

burrr

Active Member
So to sum up, plants can survive with a pretty high level of nutes, but will overeat to some extent and not grow at their prime. Lots of newbies mistake nitrogen toxicity for a healthy plant, believing that the dark green leaves, thick stems, and tight nodes is a good thing. So be careful not to over fertilize your plants!
 
skunkushybrid01

skunkushybrid01

Well-Known Member
the extent to which they over eat is hugely under debate... and science is only just scratching the surface...

plants naturally over eat anyway. they will always eat far more than they need to for optimum growth, but they also know when to stop. when to slow the nutrient processes down... they can differentiate water from nutrient ions, blocking either one. Our concern should not be with overfeeding the plants, but overfeeding the medium. K is essential, particularly during flower. High salinity slows down K transport, so salinity should be kept to a level where K is unimpeded if we want to see the best growth.

This information, once you trust it, will enable you to fine tune your feeds and better diagnose issues when they arise.
 
burrr

burrr

Active Member
So to sum up, you LOST THIS STUPID ARGUMENT!

From the Professor himself, via email
Burrr,

Suberin plays an important role in blocking mineral ions and water moving in an uncontrolled manner from the soil to the shoots via the roots. Suberin forces nutrients to move through cells in the root where their transport can be controlled.

Suberin plays a critical role in the plants normal regulation of mineral nutrient uptake and its presence can help in reducing the uptake of high levels of minerals like sodium but if any mineral elements is present in high enough concentrations the normal control processes in a plant will be overcome and toxicity will occur.

I have had several emails on this topic and was wondering what publication of mine people have been reading recently?

David
--------------------------------------------
David E Salt, PhD FRSC
Professor and 6th Century Chair
University of Aberdeen
Institute of Biological and Environmental Sciences
Cruickshank Building
St Machar Drive, Aberdeen, Scotland
AB24 3UU, United Kingdom
 
skunkushybrid01

skunkushybrid01

Well-Known Member
here is my own email from Professor Salt:
I am glad that you found our research on suberin interesting. I have attached the paper where we published details of these experiments.
Plant have exquisitely evolved systems for regulating the uptake of both required mineral nutrients. These systems allow plants to match the uptake of these mineral nutrients with the availability of the nutrients in the soil and the plants requirements for them for normal plant growth and development. However, in situations when certain mineral nutrients are present in the soil at levels above which the plant can deal with these minerals become toxic to plants. Salinity (sodium chloride) is a good example of this. Sodium is required by plants but if the soil is too saline plants will not be able to grow. In situations where essential mineral nutrients are present in the soil at levels, below what the plant can use, then plants show poor growth and development.
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At levels above which an individual plant can deal with it. as i stated way earlier in the thread, in regards to salinity tolerance... some plants will be able to handle large amounts of salts and others not so many. In the case of cannabis, cannabis has very good salt tolerance... so good that it starts to suffer from K deficiency (through poor K mobility in high salinity) well before minerals can become toxic.
 
burrr

burrr

Active Member
However, in situations when certain mineral nutrients are present in the soil at levels above which the plant can deal with these minerals become toxic to plants.

notice he did not say will cause a K def. lol
 
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