Do You Support The "Occupy"Protests?

NLXSK1 said:

Any plan that starts with reprogramming everyone is doomed to fail.

Thank god nobody put you in charge to force your utopian society on everyone...

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I knew I could count on you to miss the point again.

The idea is not to reprogram, but to free ourselves from the programming. To become fully aware rather than the mindless drones many of us have become. Most people are happy with beer and TV. Doesn't matter that most of the world has to starve just so that most of us (in the western world) can live in ignorance.

You still have a long way to go NLXSK1

skunkushybrid01 said:

I knew I could count on you to miss the point again.

The idea is not to reprogram, but to free ourselves from the programming. To become fully aware rather than the mindless drones many of us have become. Most people are happy with beer and TV. Doesn't matter that most of the world has to starve just so that most of us can live in ignorance.

You still have a long way to go NLXSK1

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Didn't you used to be a mod here?

skunkushybrid01 said:

I knew I could count on you to miss the point again.

The idea is not to reprogram, but to free ourselves from the programming. To become fully aware rather than the mindless drones many of us have become. Most people are happy with beer and TV. Doesn't matter that most of the world has to starve just so that most of us (in the western world) can live in ignorance.

You still have a long way to go NLXSK1

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Why does my birth in a country 1/2 a world away obligate me to feed and clothe people too stupid to understand they are living in a fucking desert and there is no food or water?

You want to talk about everyone being equal but you want to enslave me to do it...

no thanks.

I get it, I just want to be free to pursue my own goals and make my life better for myself and my own family. I didnt sign up to be the worlds welfare provider.

Why dont you go get a job with the fucking peace corps and make a difference? Oh yeah, cause you just want to take it from everyone else and give it to yourself.

Why dont you make something of your life instead of sitting around trying to figure out how to take from others?

Oh yeah, cause you are just a selfish narcissist with an ego problem and no sense of shame about telling everyone that the whole world should be different just to make you happy. If it makes you feel any better you are not unique...

doc111 said:

Didn't you used to be a mod here?

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If he was, someone must have been high making that decision.

I am not ashamed, I am proud to produce for myself.

I do not apologize for not wanting to feed and clothe the world, I am not Jesus...

I did not put those people on the planet, I havent oppressed them in any way. If you actually took the time and understood things you would realize those people are being oppressed by their own governments and their own people.

Not my problem...

• There is water, they just don't have the wherewithal to access it, and when they do to clean it.​

  
  
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And? So, you want the wealthy west to pay to install wells to provide clean drinking water and sanitation at our cost. Yes, you want me to pay for it as I am a producer and clearly you have shown they cannot do it for themselves. Then of course they will need food. And once their bellies are full they will need shelter. Oh and dont forget education, and while you are at it lets throw in healthcare. There are billions upon billions of poor people in the world but I am sure we can feed, clothe, and shelter them all from our taxes. After all, we are currently running a surplus of 100 trillion dollars... Gold is literally flying out of my ass as I type this!!

Yes, and we will all be equal because those countries will still be ratholes and the USA will be depleted of resources and cash and be starving and impoverished as well. What a beautiful utopian society you have laid out for us. I just cannot imagine why people are not jumping on the bandwagon in droves.

A good barometer of how solid your argument is on a forum is to count the number of people who agree with you.

And by the way, you know nothing about me and/or freedom.

NLXSK1 said:

I am not ashamed, I am proud to produce for myself.

I do not apologize for not wanting to feed and clothe the world, I am not Jesus...

I did not put those people on the planet, I havent oppressed them in any way. If you actually took the time and understood things you would realize those people are being oppressed by their own governments and their own people.

Not my problem...



And? So, you want the wealthy west to pay to install wells to provide clean drinking water and sanitation at our cost. Yes, you want me to pay for it as I am a producer and clearly you have shown they cannot do it for themselves. Then of course they will need food. And once their bellies are full they will need shelter. Oh and dont forget education, and while you are at it lets throw in healthcare. There are billions upon billions of poor people in the world but I am sure we can feed, clothe, and shelter them all from our taxes. After all, we are currently running a surplus of 100 trillion dollars... Gold is literally flying out of my ass as I type this!!

Yes, and we will all be equal because those countries will still be ratholes and the USA will be depleted of resources and cash and be starving and impoverished as well. What a beautiful utopian society you have laid out for us. I just cannot imagine why people are not jumping on the bandwagon in droves.

A good barometer of how solid your argument is on a forum is to count the number of people who agree with you.

And by the way, you know nothing about me and/or freedom.

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I think it's a wonderful notion to want to end world hunger, oppression, poverty, etc. I've been to several countries in Africa, I've seen firsthand the squalor in which those people live. However, when I was there we were trying to protect the populace from the brutality of warlords and roving bandits. We attempted to feed those people, clothe them, give them medical treatment..............I literally vaccinated THOUSANDS of Somali children while I was there. What do we have to show for it? Somalia is as unstable as ever and a possible haven for terrorists! We CAN'T fix all the world's problems and it seems that people will complain no matter what we do. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. It's a harsh fact of life that poverty and hunger still exist today. In spite of our best efforts to eradicate these issues, they still persist. Why is that?

Oh, that's right! I forgot, it's the "evil corporations" and "money" that are the problem. lol!

Padawanbater2 said:

Not getting into the middle of it, but is there just no solution to world poverty/hunger in your opinions doc & NLX? skunkushybird's solution doesn't seem very realistic as you both have outlined, but it seems like both of you have just decided to accept "we can't do anything, it's their own problem" attitude towards the issue.

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lol!

I don't believe that ANY problem is entirely without solution. Many times you and I have spoken about some of the things I've done with my life. I've always tried to set an example. I made a career out of helping people. If you want something to change, you gotta begin with yourself. One person can't change the world, but if enough people make small changes in their lives and just do small gestures on a regular basis, the world will start to improve, slowly, 1 person at a time. Take 1 hour out of your week and go volunteer somewhere. Donate unwanted items instead of just throwing them in the dumpster. If you see someone struggling with their groceries, go over and help them. Little shit like that.

History has shown us time and again that when something is FORCED onto people they tend to react negatively towards it. In spite of what some people think, humans are NOT COMPUTERS! We aren't all going to see things in the same way. There are no easy solutions to such enormous problems. Deconstructing society and rebooting without money and status would almost certainly cause other unforseen problems. People are NOT all the same. Even if we were all brought up in identical circumstances, we would still be different. Identical twins, with identical DNA, and an identical upbringing can wind up with different preferences and beliefs. I have never once said or implied that I "have just decided to accept "we can't do anything, it's their own problem" attitude towards the issue." My solutions just don't involve fairytale style utopias or unrealistic approaches. There are many organizations working towards the goal of ending world hunger and poverty. Perhaps if more people got involved we could make some bigger strides. Until then?

Padawan.... If the objective is to feed and cloth the people of the world (lets make it that simple for this discussion). How much has collectivism throughout history done to achieve this goal? How much has freedom done?

What percentage of people in the United States are unfed and unclothed?

How about North Korea?

Obviously that's an extreme example, but if you look around the world you see that in the countries/regions where the people have the most freedom and the profit motivator is present, the percentage of people clothed/fed is much higher.

Countries that were once in squaller are now emerging and their people have more freedom to pursue their own interests. China is a great example. Look at China today vs. 1970 China. You can even see it in regions of China, in the areas where the people are free to produce, they are fed and they are clothed. Just look at areas like Shanghai!

Where is this belief founded that collectivism successfully leads to more people clothed and fed? It just doesn't exist and every bit of evidence and in every way it can be measured it's just not true. The intention and the moral good feeling that you'd rather help your fellow man before yourself is so noble that it leads people to ignore that facts staring them in the face. Does it really matter that it sounds cras that I would rather be free to pursue my own interests over the interests of the general public? Yeah, it does, but the reality is that in order to pursue my own interests I HAVE to pursue the interests of the general good.

The free market is a machine that is used to deliver information to the workers and producers of the world. It does require that people be free to pursue their own interests, but the only way to do that is by supplying the interests of the masses. Keeping the free market fair and free needs to be the #1 priority if we are to achieve solving the world hunger problem. No government organization is able to as efficiently transmit information and put the people into place producing the goods/services that need to be produced and therefore can only lead to less production and more starvation. Does that mean that US should provide for the world? No, our success and the successes of many free nations should be used as an example throughout the world (which it has) illustrating that awesome power of the individual over the power of organized central command economics.

The role of the gov't need only to be to ensure that the free market system is able to function properly on its own. Not to replace it, hinder it, or otherwise thwart it an attempt to centrally control. I guess you could say that the gov't role in the game should only be to play referee, not to be the coach and call the plays. The problem we have now and that will always exist in any command economics structure is that the guy that is supposed to be ref is calling the plays and he's playing for one of the teams. This doesn't work and the answer isn't to give the ref more power to call plays and more power to have a hand in the outcome. It flat out doesn't make any sense to me to think that this somehow is the answer.

I do believe that the gov't should be a non-participator and that the only way to get back to that system is through Campaign Finance and Lobby Reform. We need to get the $$$ out of politics. The referee's can't be bought off. The propblem of crony-capitalism is solved by crony-collectivism, it's only made worse.

I see no mention of means of production.

When the means of production is privatized in the hands of a few, those with no wealth aside from their children have only labor to sell. In our country, the perception of what is a free market needs to be updated. Patents are awarded to companies like Monsanto which give immense power over us all. THIS IS NOT A FREE MARKET! The game is rigged.

All of us here should have more respect for the means of production seeing as how we give ourselves the right to plant cannabis seeds. We are from a people who stole their freedom from a king who would have made a perfect Neoconservative GOP candidate. He was a king who believed that peace could be achieved by waging war, that more police, laws and prisons would lead to greater liberty and that natural resources were HIS property to use chiefly for his own benefit.

We have allowed Neoconservative mafiosos to institute a fiat currency system. They have used it to consolidate even more power. We have allowed them to blur secular lines. We gave America back to King George.

As an example of how this occurred, think of Diesel. He created an internal combustion engine that could run on peanut oil. This model could never generate the profit that an engine running on fossil fuels could and therefore a redesign was necessary. Now we are addicted to a finite resource which is owned by a few rich men instead of being free to fill our own tanks.

abandonconflict said:

I see no mention of means of production.

When the means of production is privatized in the hands of a few, those with no wealth aside from their children have only labor to sell. In our country, the perception of what is a free market needs to be updated. Patents are awarded to companies like Monsanto which give immense power over us all. THIS IS NOT A FREE MARKET! The game is rigged.

All of us here should have more respect for the means of production seeing as how we give ourselves the right to plant cannabis seeds. We are from a people who stole their freedom from a king who would have made a perfect Neoconservative GOP candidate. He was a king who believed that peace could be achieved by waging war, that more police, laws and prisons would lead to greater liberty and that natural resources were HIS property to use chiefly for his own benefit.

We have allowed Neoconservative mafiosos to institute a fiat currency system. They have used it to consolidate even more power. We have allowed them to blur secular lines. We gave America back to King George.

As an example of how this occurred, think of Diesel. He created an internal combustion engine that could run on peanut oil. This model could never generate the profit that an engine running on fossil fuels could and therefore a redesign was necessary. Now we are addicted to a finite resource which is owned by a few rich men instead of being free to fill our own tanks.

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While I believe that we have given too much power to the state and that indeed this is akin to giving the power back to King George, what I don't understand is how this fits into the framework of this discussion. I don't see how those that would love to expand the role of gov't are any better than the "neoconservatives" that you claim are attempting to grab power over all of us.

What is the point of this argument? What are you suggesting? This it the problem that I have with the entire OWS movement, it's not a movement, it's just noise. Yes, the system is corrupted and the politicians are bought off aristocrats, but what does crying about it accomplish? What are some concrete goals that we the people need to achieve to change the direction the ship is sailing? How do we the masses go about a reformation period and what would those reformations be?

Most of the time I hear selfish answers like..."We want free education" and "We want relieve from all of our debts", which obviously doesn't at all move the cause forward. Campaign Fincance Reform does. Lobby Reform does. Why aren't we getting together to demand a constitutional ammendment a) limiting terms for congresspeople and b) enacting serious reforms in our election and lobby systems? When are we going to have candidates that are running their campaigns on public funds (with limits) with audits and criminal punishment for abuses?

Why can't we get a candidate that is from the people and for the people? Why do I need to raise MILLIONS of dollars just to have my ideas heard and to give the people an opportunity to elect me? What do the people gain from the current system where each candidate is either a prop for the right or left (the corporations or the unions)?

I'll support the next movement, on OWS, I'll pass.

laserbrn said:

While I believe that we have given too much power to the state and that indeed this is akin to giving the power back to King George, what I don't understand is how this fits into the framework of this discussion. I don't see how those that would love to expand the role of gov't are any better than the "neoconservatives" that you claim are attempting to grab power over all of us.

What is the point of this argument? What are you suggesting? This it the problem that I have with the entire OWS movement, it's not a movement, it's just noise. Yes, the system is corrupted and the politicians are bought off aristocrats, but what does crying about it accomplish? What are some concrete goals that we the people need to achieve to change the direction the ship is sailing? How do we the masses go about a reformation period and what would those reformations be?

Most of the time I hear selfish answers like..."We want free education" and "We want relieve from all of our debts", which obviously doesn't at all move the cause forward. Campaign Fincance Reform does. Lobby Reform does. Why aren't we getting together to demand a constitutional ammendment a) limiting terms for congresspeople and b) enacting serious reforms in our election and lobby systems? When are we going to have candidates that are running their campaigns on public funds (with limits) with audits and criminal punishment for abuses?

Why can't we get a candidate that is from the people and for the people? Why do I need to raise MILLIONS of dollars just to have my ideas heard and to give the people an opportunity to elect me? What do the people gain from the current system where each candidate is either a prop for the right or left (the corporations or the unions)?

I'll support the next movement, on OWS, I'll pass.

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I agree with you. My point is that the entire movement seems to be of dubious initial momentum because if it were true class struggle, there would be much more focus on means of production. I therefore do not support the movement.

I support the popular protest against the economic and political situation but... the masses need leadership. Marxist leadership. Desperately.

www.wsws.org

purklize said:

I support the popular protest against the economic and political situation but... the masses need leadership. Marxist leadership. Desperately.

www.wsws.org

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Lol......no seriously, lol.

Every liberal platform has its way with the world, and all have led to failure. Look at where we are now... even the formerly highly egalitarian states in Scandinavia are throwing their social programs to the wind... capital has but one master, and while it remains in power, we have none...

purklize said:

Every liberal platform has its way with the world, and all have led to failure. Look at where we are now... even the formerly highly egalitarian states in Scandinavia are throwing their social programs to the wind... capital has but one master, and while it remains in power, we have none...

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Careful, socialism isn't popular. Too many Americans are still voting who were around during the cold war. They had no internet, only mainstream media.

Socialism and fascism are not American Ideals . The economy is not a magical creature . Inflation is caused by greed . We should be organized against oppression . However why would I want a form of government that takes my rights away or excercises them on my behalf cause they know better what I need than I do . This is how we got into this situation in the first place . When public servants start serving the public - and the public stops serving Government greed then we will have a better place for everyone not just a select few . Power corrupts . The more power the more it becomes corrupt when it belongs only to a few . Communism - fascism - socialism have failed all over the world . For a long time people have fled from these types of oppressive nations and come here for a better life . Who wants to stand in line for hours for a loaf of bread ? When our politicians encouraged the industries to move away overseas we lost valuble resources that helped our economy , an industrial nation is hard to bring down . Much of our industry is gone now and that is a big part of why the economy is bad - not many good paying jobs . Free enterprise capitalism is a good system . Extreme capitalism is not . We need to get the crooked ass political leadership out and get America back on track .

Adding capitalism to culture is like adding a maze to a rat experiment. I'm sick of life being a rat race. They (corporate politicians and friends) own everything AND govern us. That is the essence of inequality. What is free about a market that relies on cannabis prohibition and patents and cancer and an oil infrastructure and war? I know shit doesn't change overnight but I can still bitch about it. Why should I continue to believe in the free market promises? Faith is fallacious.

i support just about anything that lets the controllers know that we the people are still here and wont be fuct over , or something like that...

abandonconflict said:

Adding capitalism to culture is like adding a maze to a rat experiment. I'm sick of life being a rat race. They (corporate politicians and friends) own everything AND govern us. That is the essence of inequality. What is free about a market that relies on cannabis prohibition and patents and cancer and an oil infrastructure and war? I know shit doesn't change overnight but I can still bitch about it. Why should I continue to believe in the free market promises? Faith is fallacious.

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I understand the frustration I feel it myself . But first the system is not in good working order - it's been corrupted by thieves and liars for quite some time . Any good thing can be ruined , once ruined we can all say its no good now . If it were functioning they way it should we would not be at odds with it . But under a completely socialist government when the cops came to my house last week they could have just shot us all , stole everything and maybe raped my wife with little to no consequences . It would have been much worse . Things in this country have gotten so far away from the way they were designed to be it is terrible . What is terrible about it is what they have done to it . It's been perverted and twisted and taken from us all that remains is an illusion of media propaganda . I don't have the exact answer but I feel like we are all being screwed by greedy leadership and am tired of it .