Evolution Or God?

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PadawanBater

Guest
Again. It's a personal relationship. It needs to be proven to your - each one of us- in a personal way. One could provide you with the evidence- the planet you're standing on but it wouldn't work. It didn't work for me. I've told you what happend to me and still you want me to prove God to you. That's not how HE works. He proves himself to those who seek.
-I will not accept "it's a personal relationship" as proof of anything

-existence is not proof of creation

-it is impossible to prove God exists, I am fully aware of this, how do you explain your accusation that I want you to prove God to me?

-then explain to me the correct way of "seeking God", and how you attained the knowledge of "seeking God correctly"

PadawanBater: Your picture appears to be an illusion. But when you STOP and look at one single seed- doesn't matter which one- the 'illusion' stops. Don't be confussed. Stop the illusion- just focus on one 'seed'.
All of our senses are subject to illusions exactly like the optical one I presented. They have things that can alter the way you taste, many drugs alter your state of mind, etc... Bottom line is human beings don't make good recorders. You cannot rely on someones personal testimony of some (what they perceive to be) supernatural event as proof that any kind of God exists. Much less someone who lived thousands of years ago... You understand the point being made, right? It's simply bad reasoning.
 

ViRedd

New Member
What always slays me about supossed "Christians" is they talk like christians and act like assholes. Take Bush for example, He claimed to be a stalwart Christian but yet is responsible for over 100,000 deaths. We have "Christians" on this site that claim to be men of Christ, yet act like the assholes they really are. Being "Christian" starts from within and should mean "one acts in a Christlike manner", like helping the poor, feeding the hungry etc, not amassing fortunes in a selfish manner. You supposed "Christians" need to do a little introspection.
Do you believe in Universal Law, Med? Do you suppose that that wealth can be accrued via sowing and reaping?
 
Again... for me I , it asll started when I asked God to make Himself known to me in a way that I could not dispute. And he did in a big fat way. And he continues to prove to me that he is real, alive and a loving God to those who diligently seek him.
Ancap: I've become so ticked off at God that I too just said screw it and walked away. But I also knew I couldn't walk away from mtself. There is nothing I can say or do to knock God off his throne. But I can beat my head up against a wall for all the good that will do. But I can and do remember what he did in private/deep inside of me- a place no one can see. He spoke to me in a way I could (and still do hear) He answers questions in the most awesome ways! That's all I know. He did all that I asked.

Medicineman: I see what you are talking about and agree with most of it. I walked away from very high paying carreer in music and built a free drug and alcohal Treatment center for those who had no money.
Back in a few. Company...
 

ruderalis88

Well-Known Member
I think you're reasoning correctly, but I don't think you have to end at an "agnostic" conclusion (which to me is like "weak atheism"). As an atheist, I never stated that I am unwilling to hear new evidence, nor should I be unwilling. Also remember, more people believing in a delusion does not make the delusion more valid. There is as much evidence supporting gods as there is magical flying unicorns... none... just guesses and "feelings".



These are good questions, but you have to remember... there has been absolutely no evidence presented which can be scientifically tested and whos result can be repeated consistently, that supports the theory of a supernatural world of any kind.

The statement "God exists" is a logical contradiction because it states "that which does not exist, exists". Let me explain...

Existance: An objective material presence (matter/energy) or objectively measurable effects of that material presence (gravity).

A complete absense of an objective material presence or its associated effects is the definition of non-existence. So when people say "God exists", they are actually saying "that which has never been detected, exists." If something has never been detected, it perfectly fits the definition of non-existence. Therefore the statement "God exists" can be restated, "that which does not exist, exists".



Because life has been demonstrated and proven here on earth, it is not irrational to acknowledge the possibility of life on other planets within our universe, given the right conditions. The supernatural has never been proven, thus to even claim the possibility of a supernatural god is an irrational proposition in the same way you do not claim the possibility of supernatural unicorns.
I totally agree with almost everything you've said there. Agosticism is entirely equatable with 'weak atheism', and i'm familiar with all your arguments. The problem with my individual belief/lack thereof is that my gut feeling (for which i can present no evidence, it is nothing more than a personal instinctual response and should not be applied universally) is to doubt that which i perceive to be logically true. Cartesian doubt, if you will.

In my philosophical studies of perception i am captivated by the possibility that all which we see as real and existing, all of science included, is nothing more than an illusion. This disbelief is across the board; i don't accept the definite answer that there is no god partly for the same reason that i don't accept the definite answer that what we experience is absolutely not the deception of a hypothetical evil demon (Descartes 1st meditation). I don't for a second contend that there IS a god, or a demon or whatever else, just that i'm not comfortable ruling it out. I strongly suspect that these e.g.s are neither of them true, but there is a niggling litte element of my basic nature that says 'you don't know that for sure'.

Similarly, in my psychological study of perception i am reminded that while the human senses are remarkable in many may ways, they are not always to be relied upon completely. I think it was Padawanbear who posted an optical illusion earlier, so i won't repeat his points, but suffice to say i'm not suitably convinced of anything. Although for the purposes of living at a basically functioning level i choose to go along with and largely 'believe' that most of reality is in fact reality.

As Haul Me To Heaven has been demonstrating, there are individuals of faith who feel they have a personal relationship with their god. Religion isn't necessarily a part of this although usually it is. Many a time i have questioned my own agnosticism and asked for god, if he/she is really there, to make him/herself known to me, but to no avail.
Among my religious acquaintances (of whom there are a number, spanning several mainstream religions) there is a shared feeling of a bond with god, an undeniable (to them) element which is their 'proof'. I almost envy that, as i don't think i will ever have such utter conviction about any matter of such dubiousness.
"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't, none will suffice"

I agree that my position is irrational, and in many ways illogical, but i, personally, have never been able to shake that doubt. It pops up in my day to day life and in the bigger, more intellectual matters.

Were i a person of faith who felt the presence of their god so strongly as to definitely affirm its existence then i would be a believer and probably no amount of logic could change that. But even then, i imagine that i would be tormented by my own doubts. So it goes.

People with experiences like Haul Me To Heaven make me question my lack of belief, people with logic and rationality, like you and padawan make me question my vague belief.
People like Jef f make me wonder whether they're just winding folk up or if they actually think that repeatedly asserting nonsense makes it true, or makes them the winner in debates.
Sadly, I may never have the answers to these questions.
 
I would have to agree and add a fairy tale this controlling should almost be illegal and that is why is is supposed to be separate from state. imo
 
Mental... spiritial.

Prove that you have a spirit.

Now add your 'science' to it.

Check-mate.

Some of us not only believe in God- we met him and know him like you would a friend.

*0-n^
 
It's all about diligently sweeking. Be cool, Be calm. Be still and know that he is God.

Somebody had to make an atom to begin with. And the universe is his testimony. Life is proof that he does not want to be alone. Making a being- provided him with friendship.

God is my friend. And he proved his 'reality' to me in a way I could not dispute. Even to this day.

But he did not do it once- he did it over and over again. Since the mid 70's when it all began.

But I also left him by the curb and became the worst version of my self. I had all the world had to offer but I lacked what only God could give.

Never been a 'church go'er'. Not my type. They believe but don't know. They have words but no 'street' proof. They have faith but it's easily shattgered or shaken; often easily destroyed.

Me, I was an ass hole from day one. Don't tell me you're 'God' and love me! Prove it 'big guy!' In a way I can not dispute. And he did.
Again and agin.

I left my carreer in music and gave my fortune away. Made many more - starting with nothing- and did the same thing.

Many of you - on this site- do not, or have never seen, the value of your life. Everything you have gone through contains something valuable to someone else. You may have a piece of wisdom- that you picked up along the way- that acts like a key- that unlocks a life... or a broken heart.

I'll leave you all with this... You need to read the whole thing- Chapters above and below to ther end of chapter three to see/understand who he's talking to...

Speaking to the 'christians' (the blind ones, those that think they're all that AND a bag of chips) Jesus said the following:

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.
.........
Gold tried in the fire... ??? That is/they are- those of us who have came out of a life of hell and have something very valuable to God to offer mankind. And we offer it for free in Jesus name.

Cheers
 
P

PadawanBater

Guest
It's all about diligently sweeking. Be cool, Be calm. Be still and know that he is God.

Somebody had to make an atom to begin with. And the universe is his testimony. Life is proof that he does not want to be alone. Making a being- provided him with friendship.

God is my friend. And he proved his 'reality' to me in a way I could not dispute. Even to this day.

But he did not do it once- he did it over and over again. Since the mid 70's when it all began.

But I also left him by the curb and became the worst version of my self. I had all the world had to offer but I lacked what only God could give.

Never been a 'church go'er'. Not my type. They believe but don't know. They have words but no 'street' proof. They have faith but it's easily shattgered or shaken; often easily destroyed.

Me, I was an ass hole from day one. Don't tell me you're 'God' and love me! Prove it 'big guy!' In a way I can not dispute. And he did.
Again and agin.

I left my carreer in music and gave my fortune away. Made many more - starting with nothing- and did the same thing.

Many of you - on this site- do not, or have never seen, the value of your life. Everything you have gone through contains something valuable to someone else. You may have a piece of wisdom- that you picked up along the way- that acts like a key- that unlocks a life... or a broken heart.

I'll leave you all with this... You need to read the whole thing- Chapters above and below to ther end of chapter three to see/understand who he's talking to...

Speaking to the 'christians' (the blind ones, those that think they're all that AND a bag of chips) Jesus said the following:

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.
.........
Gold tried in the fire... ??? That is/they are- those of us who have came out of a life of hell and have something very valuable to God to offer mankind. And we offer it for free in Jesus name.

Cheers

You keep saying "he proved himself in a way I could not dispute"... well, I bet I can. So why don't you go ahead and explain exactly how he "proved himself" to you. Give me as much detail as possible and I will tell you exactly what I think happened.

Also, "spirits" have never been proven to exist either.
 
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
 

Vindicated

Well-Known Member
I love these topics, but I think a lot of you guys are confused as to what evolution really means. Evolution means change over time, or more specifically, genes mutate in a population from one generation to the next. If you breed plants or animals, or have any basic understanding of biology you know this is undeniably true. Even the big bang can no longer be denied rationally. The pope himself has acknowledged this fact. Still, people will say that God created the Universe in 6 days and made everything looked aged. This would mean carbon dating is wrong.

Instead of the universe being 13.5 billion years old, the first book suggests its only 6,000 - 10,000 years old. But if true, why is the universe so large? Why can we understand what happened all the way up to the big bang mathmatically with 99.999999...999% accuracy? And I'm being kind with that number. So why such a massive amount of galaxies. We have galaxies so far away they will never have an affect on us. Their light won't reach us and we might never be able to reach them unless you believe we can build a worm hole, ala Stargate. And even if that's the case, we talking millions of years in the future. The truth is, we could exist just as well if the universe was the size of the local group.

So this argument really doesn't hold. There is simply to much stuff that doesn't need to be there.

Here's a quick summery of the facts: In Newton's time, the belief was that the universe exited forever. And this lead scientist to speculate that if the universe had always been around, what was the need for a creator. Our current level of science now allows us to know what occurred down to the 10−43 second (that is a faction of a fraction of a fraction of a second). Before this point, we don't know what happened, but we do know without a doubt that time & space started here. So now scientist don't know what to think of the God equation. Technically there IS room for a creator because we have proof that time had a beginning. The COBE satellite gave us the map that showed us how the early universe looked like. Well sort of, it's actually a heat map because shit was so hot back then. In fact... our modern telescopes can see the edge of the universe. the problem is time. We can clearly see the early universe because the light has reached us. What we are trying to find out is how the universe looks right now. That's a lot harder because it takes billions of years for the light to reach us.

At the earliest point in time that we can measure with absolute proof, there was a mix of matter and antimatter. The balance wasn't 100% perfect and in fact, as soon as these two types of particulars came in contact they destroyed each other. Luckily, the very slight imbalance that existed at the sub-atomic level allowed matter to win. At 10−35 second the universe cooled enough for quarks and antiquarks to from. It takes at least three quarks (top, bottom, and strange) for form a nucleolus, which give rise to atoms. At 1 second, quarks began binding and we got protons and neutrons. The first atoms were hydrogen and helium.

3 minutes after the big bag matter and radiation came together to form stable nuclei. At this point, things were pretty boring and it stood this way for about 300,000 years. In this era, think of the universe as being a giant mist of hydrogen, helium, lithium, and raw energy (light). At 1,000 million years the clouds forms little pockets. The bits of matter started to clump together and we got our first stars. These were mega stars like Eta Carinae and the Pistol Stars, which didn't live very long.

When the first generation stars died, they exploded. Some went super nova while others turned into super massive black holes. This had a giant blender affect, mixing old energy with new energy to form heavier elements.

At 15,000 million years the first galaxies formed around the super massive black holes. From here it was only a matter of time before heavy elements such as iron and water formed. These led to rocks, which clustered together to form planets, and one day our own planet was made and life developed on it on. We don't know how life developed. We don't even have a solid theory, only a few ideas. But once life did take fold, we noticed a trend. Micro life developed first, then plants, then animals, and eventually us. You can call this the work of God if it makes you feel nice and fuzzy, but in science we call this Evolution. But evolution, natural selection, etc are just labels we give things.

If you want to really understand how we came to be, pick up Stephen Hawkings' book, A Brief History of Time. If you go to Borders, you might be able to find his illustrated version for $9.99, which is actually two books in one: a brief histor of time and his later book, The Universe in a Nutshell. If you buy the books separately it will cost you over $70.
 

Vindicated

Well-Known Member
Spirits are tricky but not impossible to explain scientifically. I'm playing devil's advocate here...

We can look into an electron microscope and we can detect every part of an atom along with the quarks that make them up. We have even mapped the human genome and have yet to find a spirit or ghost.

So how could they possibly exist? Well... they could be made up of virtual particles and exist in another plane of existence. No, i'm not talking like the show Sliders or aliens or whatever your probably thinking. I mean real dimensions like width, height, depth and time. If M Theory holds, and it's looking reallly good, then there would be a few more microscopic dimensions that exist, but are smaller then an atom. One could say a spirit may exist here and if true, there would be no way for us to detect them as of us.

I don't personally believe in spirits anymore then I believe in goblins, but I can't say they don't exist because technically there isn't any law in science that rules them out.
 

ancap

Active Member
I totally agree with almost everything you've said there. Agosticism is entirely equatable with 'weak atheism', and i'm familiar with all your arguments. The problem with my individual belief/lack thereof is that my gut feeling (for which i can present no evidence, it is nothing more than a personal instinctual response and should not be applied universally) is to doubt that which i perceive to be logically true. Cartesian doubt, if you will.

In my philosophical studies of perception i am captivated by the possibility that all which we see as real and existing, all of science included, is nothing more than an illusion. This disbelief is across the board; i don't accept the definite answer that there is no god partly for the same reason that i don't accept the definite answer that what we experience is absolutely not the deception of a hypothetical evil demon (Descartes 1st meditation). I don't for a second contend that there IS a god, or a demon or whatever else, just that i'm not comfortable ruling it out. I strongly suspect that these e.g.s are neither of them true, but there is a niggling litte element of my basic nature that says 'you don't know that for sure'.
The problem with perpetual doubt in this manner is that the senses and our filter of logic are human's only tools to pierce into reality and discover the truth about our universe (we've also developed instruments that translate non-sensory data into sensory data). Because these are the only tools we possess, it seems we should only doubt them to the extent that we can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the information our senses collected and our brains processed was incorrect.

A perpetual doubt maximized to an extreme leads only to ethical, emotional and social crippling. If up is down, a square is a circle, and two plus two is green, then we have no basis for a consistent ethical framework. "Truth" is discovered through empirical testing and consistent results. If what we observed in our testing can never be validated, then truth can never be discovered. If truth can never be discovered, then science is meaningless, debates are meaningless, and though our relationships bring us happiness, they too are meaningless because the emotion of happiness is itself called into question. The possibility of our wrongness should always be a factor in our reasoning, but what you know as truth should only adapt when new evidence is presented that nullifies prior conclusions. This is the only truth humanity will ever have access to.

We have no choice then, but to live freely from chains of crippling doubt because we can only see through one pair of eyes. If we try to see through eyes that we do not have, we will definitely never truly see.

As Haul Me To Heaven has been demonstrating, there are individuals of faith who feel they have a personal relationship with their god. Religion isn't necessarily a part of this although usually it is. Many a time i have questioned my own agnosticism and asked for god, if he/she is really there, to make him/herself known to me, but to no avail.
Among my religious acquaintances (of whom there are a number, spanning several mainstream religions) there is a shared feeling of a bond with god, an undeniable (to them) element which is their 'proof'. I almost envy that, as i don't think i will ever have such utter conviction about any matter of such dubiousness.
"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't, none will suffice"

I agree that my position is irrational, and in many ways illogical, but i, personally, have never been able to shake that doubt. It pops up in my day to day life and in the bigger, more intellectual matters.

Were i a person of faith who felt the presence of their god so strongly as to definitely affirm its existence then i would be a believer and probably no amount of logic could change that. But even then, i imagine that i would be tormented by my own doubts. So it goes.

People with experiences like Haul Me To Heaven make me question my lack of belief, people with logic and rationality, like you and padawan make me question my vague belief.
People like Jef f make me wonder whether they're just winding folk up or if they actually think that repeatedly asserting nonsense makes it true, or makes them the winner in debates.
Sadly, I may never have the answers to these questions.
I understand where your teetering comes from, but I think your logic is a bit misplaced with this example of personal spiritual conviction. To bastardize Schrodinger's cat analogy, imagine that there is a box in front of you that is sound proof, does not move and is completely opaque. We can both assume that there is a possibility of a cat being inside (as remote as it might be), because we can say through empirical testing that cats do exist... but we should not have to accept the possibility that there is a miniture *glypto inside (*a made up word for a small being that lives in another dimension, in another universe, that feeds on particles that are unknown) because there is no scientific basis from which to believe that these creatures exist.

If glyptos were in fact real, but no evidence was ever collected and there was no way for us to ever prove their existence, our claim that glyptos are real would be nothing more than mere coincidence, thus effectively incorrect since our only method of discovering truth is the processing of sensory data through the scientific method. In the same way, personal, internal experience can not be accepted as evidence because the only useful evidence available is external to our minds.

The belief that a god exists is 100% meaningless outside of the believers mind.
 
Stump an Atheist

By David J. Stewart

Ask an atheist if he or she believes in the existence of aliens? If they answer, "no," then ask them how do they know that? Have they gone to all the other galaxies throughout the universe? The truth is that no atheist can reasonably deny the existence of alien life. To do so would be utter ignorance. If an atheist answers, "yes," then they have contradicted their claim that there is no God. Is not God an Alien? By every definition of the word, God is an alien, i.e., He is not of this earth. For an atheist to profess believe is alien life, while simultaneously denying the existence of God, is utter hypocrisy and foolishness.

The Scriptures do not teach the existence of alien life in the sense of invading Martians, alien abductions, or close encounters, as seen by Hollywood; however, angels, demons, and Narnia's hosts are definitely alien to mankind. No person can honestly claim to be an atheist. To do so is to deny the existence of alien life, and who can honestly say that they've explored the entire universe? Can any human know what exists in all the galaxies of the universe? Scientists used to estimate that there were 50,000,000,000 galaxies in the universe; BUT, with the launch of the Hubble Space Telescope, astronomers now say that there are over 200,000,000,000 galaxies in the universe, and some scientists have claimed as many as 500,000,000,000!!!

Perhaps some atheists will agree to the existence of alien life, but deny the God of the Bible; however, how do they know that? Was the Bible written by men alone? The Bible came about by absolutely impossible circumstances. How could 40 men, over an extended time period of 1,500 years, with differing personalities, from different nations, write 66 separate Books that all perfectly harmonize in meaning and Biblical prophecy? The only answer is Divine intervention!

Could not an alien life form be God, man's Creator? Recent TV shows and movies have alluded that alien gods constructed the Egyptian pyramids, and millions of people believe this nonsense. I say "nonsense" because there is NO evidence whatsoever of such radical claims. Yet, the same people who believe such nonsense, absolutely refuse to even consider that there is a Holy and Just God in Narnia, who Authored the Bible, and created mankind for His own pleasure (Revelation 4:11). Nature itself is solid proof of the existence of God (Romans 1:20). The Bible is God's Word (2nd Timothy 3:16). Only a willingly blind fool would dogmatically deny the existence of God, or that the Bible is God's Word.

So the next time someone tells you that they don't believe in God... ask them if they believe in alien life?
 
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