Fems own Regs - the best out of 200 female genotypes

2ANONYMOUS · Dec 3, 2015

Look at it this way with each of the subsequent self-pollinations, youre going to limit the available genome, bottlenecking the genetics. This is how you stabilize a trait , if done carefully. Bx ing

But, suppose you take it to the s3 generation, and you have two moderately different expressions, and decide to cross them. Youre only really un-doing the generation

lets assume you use the s2 generation, All you get is a limited expression of the s1 gene pool...quite the opposite of an f1.

if you do it at the s3 level, youll get a more limited picture of the s1 gene pool.
the problem from these "shallow" crosses is that youre not diversifying enough from the original p1 genome. thus, youre only going to achieve a fraction of the p1 genome in return.

Siino Gardens · Dec 3, 2015

You deserve a segment on the alex jones show, he has some information but a whole hell of a lot of wtf in there. I believe you two would pair up like bananas and oranges.

dandyrandy · Dec 3, 2015

Siino Gardens said:
You deserve a segment on the alex jones show, he has some information but a whole hell of a lot of wtf in there. I believe you two would pair up like bananas and oranges.

pear

D_Urbmon · Dec 3, 2015

2ANONYMOUS said:
No disrespect to any1 but what it should come down to is WHY pay for seeds that come from a female thats been chemically abused into creating male pollen, when you can buy regular seeds from a perfectly natural proven female?

The only 2 reasons Ive heard are so you dont have to worry about not identifying a male (before it pollenates the females).
And the 2nd reason is wasted space that these males (from reg seeds) take up...

Again no disrespect but come on.. any experienced grower knows its simple to identify a male , especially before it drops! Only new growers think that this is difficult. Its a no brainer?! Newbs are brainwashed into MALES are BAD! females are good...

And the 2nd reason wasted grow space on unwanted males! Again
males show themselves quickly, much quicker than females.. And in many cases males can be pulled while still in late veg/or at least very early flowerin stage... So wasted space is bs cause your staetin from seeds tryin to find the best females, males are long gone before your precious flowerin space comes into play.

Unfortunately most seed custi's are new to growing and dont realize when choosing the only 2 benefits to go feminized just arent worth all the bs. Worried about males? try always looking for your fem females turning herm!

Oh and fems are doing harm to genetics as a whole.1;1 breeding severly limits the diversity within the strains genes ect. were losing many strains that are no longer available as reg seeds. this is the future ,unfortunately! when it comes to business and making money cause that is what its all about its not about the love of breeding its about pounding the market with as many seeds as possible and capitalizing its gains you just have to look at breeders and there strains there crossing it with anything and everything what normally takes 5 years of selective breeding to get that cup winning elite champion with thousands of seeds planted now only takes what months lol

Trust me I don't fuck with fems but what about people who have very limited plant counts? Fems definitely have their place in the market for some people. Newbies, Hobbyists, and Canadians for example. Haha 6 plants or more = mandatory minimums in Canada. So I can respect that some people may only want 5 plants at a time and that's IT!

I just don't trust the breeders who make ONLY fems. They are either trying to lock down strains and not give access to male pollen (GHS Super Lemon Haze for example) or they are just selfing elite cuts and charging 10$ per seed which is not breeding. I pick and chose who I want to support.

D_Urbmon · Dec 3, 2015

BadInfluence said:
Great science project. Could it be the case that feminized seeds usually are made from known stable plants or s1 of clone-only strains?
With regular seeds you will get the whole variety of whatever is in there. F1 more than stabilized, back crossed or cubed?
Just a theory though....

Yes my thoughts exactly. Selfed elite plants vs more genetic variation in regulars.

dandyrandy · Dec 3, 2015

I grow both. I have a fem glue dream. Great. From calliconnection. I live where you have to stealth grow. I do have a small veg area behind the magic wall that is maybe 2 foot tall by 2 foot long and 16 inches deep. I clone and sex. I buy from some breeders that don't have fems so if I want Timewreck it will be a reg. If I had a clone I bought in a legal state I liked I fem it. I have a 3d pheno I have run twice now and next time the clone 3d will get a cs spray o an limb. Then I can grow the clone and compare the seed.

st0wandgrow · Dec 3, 2015

D_Urbmon said:
Trust me I don't fuck with fems but what about people who have very limited plant counts? Fems definitely have their place in the market for some people. Newbies, Hobbyists, and Canadians for example. Haha 6 plants or more = mandatory minimums in Canada. So I can respect that some people may only want 5 plants at a time and that's IT!

I just don't trust the breeders who make ONLY fems. They are either trying to lock down strains and not give access to male pollen (GHS Super Lemon Haze for example) or they are just selfing elite cuts and charging 10$ per seed which is not breeding. I pick and chose who I want to support.

Great post. Exactly what I was thinking. Limited plant count is a very valid reason to want to grow fems.

I'm with ya on the regular seeds though. 90% of the shit I grow comes from reg seeds....but I've found some great plants in feminized seed packs too!

Siino Gardens · Dec 3, 2015

dandyrandy said:
pear

What do you do with your plants that you sprayed with CS? just shuck the seeds and toss the buds right? Just wondering.

kermit2692 · Dec 3, 2015

Really all experience is subjective.. Your worst was paradise wappa I've always had good luck with paradise, I've grown both cotton candy and agent o with no hermies. My worst was a Cali connect bhuddatahoe that grew two nodes and just stopped no top came out it stayed alive and healthy eight inches tall while the rest were hitting two feet..i should have flowered that lol but I take that back anyway worse yet was a pack of dp blueberry two full hermies one mutant two females.. You really get a better idea of odds and strain reliability running a full pack. Do have to say my favorite three plants were all fems, delahaze og18 (shit yield but fire) and the absolute keeper best plant I never saved a chronic x sour d unreleased to my knowledge promo freebie by g13..i still have a widow x sour d from them I got at the same time hoping the greatness was in that sour d

SupraSPL · Dec 4, 2015

2ANONYMOUS said:
The only 2 reasons Ive heard are so you dont have to worry about not identifying a male (before it pollenates the females).
And the 2nd reason is wasted space that these males (from reg seeds) take up...

I dont mind sexing regular beans, I enjoy the challenge of how early can I differentiate the females. I am interested in fem crosses for neither of those reasons, but because it appears that on average the bud from the best fem beans on the market is objectively better than the bud from the best reg beans on the market. Controversial statement I know, but also very promising. If true, that has groundbreaking potential for those who are dead set on breeding, growing and smoking the very most dank top shelf.

2ANONYMOUS said:
No disrespect to any1 but what it should come down to is WHY pay for seeds that come from a female thats been chemically abused into creating male pollen, when you can buy regular seeds from a perfectly natural proven female?

Feminized pollen itself is not "unnatural" it occurs regularly in nature. I grow organic so I do care about the method used to get the feminized pollen. I have always assumed that colloidal silver method is ideal but you raise an important point. I do need to study up more on the differences between colloidal silver, nano silver, silver thiosulfate, gibberellic acid. Rhodelization is fine for making small batches of seeds for personal use but I understand breeders will need a more productive and reliable method.

2ANONYMOUS said:
Oh and fems are doing harm to genetics as a whole.1;1 breeding severly limits the diversity within the strains genes ect...
Look at it this way with each of the subsequent self-pollinations, youre going to limit the available genome, bottlenecking the genetics...suppose you take it to the s3 generation, and you have two moderately different expressions, and decide to cross them. Youre only really un-doing the generation lets assume you use the s2 generation, All you get is a limited expression of the s1 gene pool...quite the opposite of an f1. if you do it at the s3 level, youll get a more limited picture of the s1 gene pool.the problem from these "shallow" crosses is that youre not diversifying enough from the original p1 genome. thus, youre only going to achieve a fraction of the p1 genome in return.

I am not sold on S1s just yet, but I am talking about crosses between 2 super females. Not just any super females but a pair that can successfully make progeny with even more desirable traits than the parents.

2ANONYMOUS said:
when it comes to business and making money cause that is what its all about its not about the love of breeding its about pounding the market with as many seeds as possible and capitalizing its gains you just have to look at breeders and there strains there crossing it with anything and everything what normally takes 5 years of selective breeding to get that cup winning elite champion with thousands of seeds planted now only takes what months lol

Wait...that sounds awesome. The world could use thousands of cheap seeds that produce cup winning elite champions, Ill take one in every flavor :joint:

OLD MOTHER SATIVA · Dec 4, 2015

2anonymous
"Since the introduction of feminized seeds there has been a steady increase in Herm/ nanner's"

>>sorry that imho is incorrect unless you count people using actual hermis to self with....which is not selfing

.....there are way more hermi's in reg seeds compared to an actual s1 via cs/sts..

.. there has be a big decrease of hermi'sif you use an actual well chosen selfed seed from a good clone..

they may be expensive but you should have tried the real doc green thumb..not the hso greenthumb

for s1's...

**the real reason bean co's sell female seeds is because 95%+ of the public wants them and the regs will just it there

but yes as for hermi's raredankness and a lot of those those new cool guys have em from what i read on this site ..prob due to the fact that all the

main bench mark clones have already been selfed and the only way to carve your own spot is to work with

poly poly hybrids of them and call them cool names..seems to work for them

this is an interesting thread

SupraSPL · Dec 4, 2015

D_Urbmon said:
Great post. It must have been very fun to go through all those beans. variety is the spice of life huh?

Thanks, yes it was a hell of a good time and plenty more in the pipeline. Patients definitely respond to variety. Rotating and even mixing a bunch of great varieties is hugely beneficial to them IME. So the sample size will grow, BUT now that I have analyzed the data I am biased from this point forward, I will lean toward popping fem beans much more than regs.

D_Urbmon said:
Forgive me if I'm wrong but it seems as though your math and methodology is a bit off. 15% is not 6x 5.5%. Closer to 2.75x.
"out of 91 females that came from regs: 5 standouts (5.5%)
out of 94 females that came from fems: 14 standouts (15%)
out of 10 females from passed cuts: 1 standout (10%)
Based on that so far I am 6 times more likely to find a standout lady from a fem bean than from a regular bean."

So if a female from a fem bean is a keeper 3X more often than a female from a reg bean, then you would have to pop 6 reg beans to match the single fem bean because ~half the regs will be males.

D_Urbmon said:
Also I hate to be a stickler but you would have had to run the same amount of samples from each strain to come to a proper conclusion. Not some singles and some full packs. I also think you would have had to test equal amount of reg ladies as you did fem's. Either way great job on the grows. Looks like some fire!!!

I did test almost the same amount of reg females and fem females, by chance. This data was never intended to be used to compare regs vs fems, just an afterthought analysis of chaotic choices of which beans to buy, pop, which beans survived, which were females and which were the top performers. However, the chaos represents a mostly random and unbiased sample set that is viable to help me understand the potential of regs vs fems.

In other words we would need to remove the breeder skill variable. Some reg breeders might be better at selecting males than others, some reg breeders may have tested more males more thoroughly than others, some fem breeders might just chuck pollen or have done a poor job selecting super females, but all that should come out in the wash with a large and varied sample size. But if we were attempting to isolate and compare breeder skill we would definitely need a different structure for the data set.

SupraSPL · Dec 4, 2015

Yodaweed said:
I personally prefer regular seeds on the chance I get an extremely rare male that I can use for breeding. It only take 1 really good male to have a break through in breeding, reversing elite clones is cool but in my opinion I like to breed with a male plant. And you killed all your male plants, you could have had an elite one but you didn't bother with growing them out you could have had something really special and you just killed it off so you never know what those regular beans had in them because you killed off half them for being males.

I am no expert at selecting males, but I did carefully examine about 100 males before culling (and eating) them. I am not convinced that you can reliably tell much about their breeding potential by observing their characteristics. I found males with lots of quick balls in veg, shy balls that dont show in veg, super stinky stem rubs. Some have claw balls, some have spear shaped calyx looking parts then surprise you with balls. I partially flowered some of them and noticed that some did get sticky and stinky. It is apparent that you would have to cross them with a super female and test the progeny to really find out if the male is any good.

I did keep one male because it has shy balls that will not show much in veg and has a wonderful super stank stem rub (Sin City - Power Nap). I will cross it to a super female and test the progeny. Then I will cross a reversed super female to the same lady. Then I can have a showdown from this "selected" male versus the reversed pollen and get one more data point.

I have come across many females with super stank stem rubs that did not have much aroma in flowering. I have come across super females that have no stank to their stem run. So I suspect that stem rub is useless but what else did I really have to go on when selecting a male?

SupraSPL · Dec 4, 2015

PrimalHaze said:
Thanks for sharing your keepers! What a great post. 7 years of growing all in one post.
one question... looking at your list... what are your thoughts on mr.nice spice? I have a few packs to go through. Shark shock too.
-pH

I only had 1 Spice lady. I really liked it but ultimately did not make the cut. I expect you will find something great in those packs though. I will try and see if I can find my notes on that.

SupraSPL · Dec 4, 2015

2ANONYMOUS said:
Feminized seeds is a abomination of the marijuana seed pool no different what so many hate Monsanto close you think

I am with you on the monsanto/biotech/pesticide abomination thing, fascism at its finest!

2ANONYMOUS said:
At the End of the day the real top end breeders are in search of non touched sativas , and indicas and keeping them in original form
As most original land races start getting bastardized in there original habitat which has already started in places like Jamaica , Mexico and many more areas
This will eventually lead to a major decline in over all natural seed populations

This is another potentially controversial statement but, every near pure Sativa or near pure Indica geno I have run has been a flop with most patients. Typically they seem to prefer brain/body cripplingly potent hybrids whenever possible. I am not saying every near pure landrace is crap, just that it must take quite a bit selection to find a standout.

I would have been willing to run long finishing, near pure sativas, or slow vegging, stocky stinky near pure indicas if they had thrilled the patients, but they did not. The patients emphasis has been on aroma/flavor, potency and variety. So In other words, when it comes to top shelf dank, I suspect the modern hybrids seem to be where its at for many people. That makes sense because plants that are adapted to surviving in their natural habitat probably don't make the strongest meds and plants that make the strongest meds probably could not survive in a landrace habitat.

That said, it is a shame that the Cannabis gene pool that was preserved in its natural habitat has been diminished by the politics of the drug war

unwine99 · Dec 4, 2015

SupraSPL said:
I am no expert at selecting males, but I did carefully examine about 100 males before culling (and eating) them. I am not convinced that you can reliably tell much about their breeding potential by observing their characteristics. I found males with lots of quick balls in veg, shy balls that dont show in veg, super stinky stem rubs. Some have claw balls, some have spear shaped calyx looking parts then surprise you with balls. I partially flowered some of them and noticed that some did get sticky and stinky. It is apparent that you would have to cross them with a super female and test the progeny to really find out if the male is any good.

I did keep one male because it has shy balls that will not show much in veg and has a wonderful super stank stem rub (Sin City - Power Nap). I will cross it to a super female and test the progeny. Then I will cross a reversed super female to the same lady. Then I can have a showdown from this "selected" male versus the reversed pollen and get one more data point.

I have come across many females with super stank stem rubs that did not have much aroma in flowering. I have come across super females that have no stank to their stem run. So I suspect that stem rub is useless but what else did I really have to go on when selecting a male?

Great information here Supra, thanks for sharing.....definitely going in my archives.

I'm curious what the theory is behind "shy balls" -- I don't think I've heard that one before. I'm trying to choose a male Goji OG myself right now. I've been burned too many times from stem rubs with females to go solely off of that though.

torontoke · Dec 4, 2015

I'm no breeder but from everything I've read males are selected based on vigor of growth, branching structure, and stalk strength as well as the ol stem rub.
Supposedly the female characteristics show through more in the offspring than the male so the male structure is the most important.

SupraSPL · Dec 4, 2015

The shyballs theory is based on the idea that a male that is reluctant to release pollen could contain recessive drug traits such as high THC as opposed to reproduction oriented traits. I am not sure if that is true in practice but I did not have much else to go by so I figure worth a shot.

BadInfluence · Dec 4, 2015

coolkid.02 said:
A true test of Fem vs. Reg keepers would be to grow a line that's offered in both fem and Reg from the same breeder, grow out equal number of females from both lines and see what comes out on top...

My .02 cents

Wouldn't the breeder try to get the best pheno out of his regulars to make the fems? So i would think that the mother was selected for a reason and i would expect the fems to be more uniform with fewer phenos.
So if you're unlucky with your regulars you get 6 out of 10 males and 3 out of the 4 girls are the "wrong" pheno. With the fems you get 10 out of 10 females and since they came from a pre-selected mother you probably get at least 5 of the nice pheno. Most fems i have seen were very similar to each other.

Then it depends if you have the resources to find the right mother and grow the clones or if you have limited space and just 3 months to pull it all off. I think many people are really glad that fems exist.

Yodaweed · Dec 4, 2015

SupraSPL said:
I am no expert at selecting males, but I did carefully examine about 100 males before culling (and eating) them. I am not convinced that you can reliably tell much about their breeding potential by observing their characteristics. I found males with lots of quick balls in veg, shy balls that dont show in veg, super stinky stem rubs. Some have claw balls, some have spear shaped calyx looking parts then surprise you with balls. I partially flowered some of them and noticed that some did get sticky and stinky. It is apparent that you would have to cross them with a super female and test the progeny to really find out if the male is any good.

I did keep one male because it has shy balls that will not show much in veg and has a wonderful super stank stem rub (Sin City - Power Nap). I will cross it to a super female and test the progeny. Then I will cross a reversed super female to the same lady. Then I can have a showdown from this "selected" male versus the reversed pollen and get one more data point.

I have come across many females with super stank stem rubs that did not have much aroma in flowering. I have come across super females that have no stank to their stem run. So I suspect that stem rub is useless but what else did I really have to go on when selecting a male?

From my experience stem rubs are not reliable, look for characteristics and desirable traits when selecting a male like veg growth speed, flowering growth speed, tric production ( yes males can be frosty too) , total flowering duration, size. Good luck on your breeding attempts!

Fems own Regs - the best out of 200 female genotypes

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