"Government will not appeal the Allard medical pot ruling" Philpott

I agree. If the feds get it wrong again, we'll fight them in court!

We won our right to grow in court. They get until the end of August to incorporate how home medical production will look.

Period. Supreme court ruled so. End of story. We won.

Nah, I don't believe that Calyxcrusher. I mean we won but how it looks in five months time may have us going back to court to fight their new system. My worry is that they will reduce our plant counts and if that happens, then it isn't the end of the story in my view because I and I hope many others will join together to get our original plant counts restored.

buckets said:

Nah, I don't believe that Calyxcrusher. I mean we won but how it looks in five months time may have us going back to court to fight their new system. My worry is that they will reduce our plant counts and if that happens, then it isn't the end of the story in my view because I and I hope many others will join together to get our original plant counts restored.

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Only a doctor can determine dosage. A patient would need to be able to produce enough medicine to fill his script, so the only thing HC is able to change is the formula used to determine # of plants vs. # grams/day. I generally grow 25 on a 49 plant license and get by fine, so maybe there is room for change there. Problem with that is everyone just claims they are juicing and has their script increased. I don't think we have much to worry about, imo.

I sincerely hope that you guys are both right and they don't play with the formula so that suddenly we go from being allowed to grow (eg) 49 plants down to five or six plants. But if they do, I sure as hell hope everyone here will stand up and fight it out with the feds in court!

VIANARCHRIS said:

Only a doctor can determine dosage. A patient would need to be able to produce enough medicine to fill his script, so the only thing HC is able to change is the formula used to determine # of plants vs. # grams/day. I generally grow 25 on a 49 plant license and get by fine, so maybe there is room for change there. Problem with that is everyone just claims they are juicing and has their script increased. I don't think we have much to worry about, imo.

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its not a problem if it's legal and everyone grows it....
Everyone should juice!
Just sayin.

CalyxCrusher said:

We won our right to grow in court. They get until the end of August to incorporate how home medical production will look.

Period. Supreme court ruled so. End of story. We won.

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Just wanted to point out that phelan isn't a Supreme Court judge. Federal court not suprem. The Feds can still screw us and probably will. I just hope phealan doesn't stay the goldstars proceedings but have a feeling he will.

Gmack420 said:

Just wanted to point out that phelan isn't a Supreme Court judge. Federal court not suprem. The Feds can still screw us and probably will. I just hope phealan doesn't stay the goldstars proceedings but have a feeling he will.

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So based on what exactly are the assumptions of them taking our right to grow being made? Philpott being vague? No shit, they dont have a plan and she cant say what it is exactly the new program will hold for patients without, actually having sat down to work it out just yet.

At the end of the day, she has to adhere to the ruling, regardless of peoples paranoid unsubstantiated fears based on no fact or logic

CalyxCrusher said:

So based on what exactly are the assumptions of them taking our right to grow being made? Philpott being vague? No shit, they dont have a plan and she cant say what it is exactly the new program will hold for patients without, actually having sat down to work it out just yet.

At the end of the day, she has to adhere to the ruling, regardless of peoples paranoid unsubstantiated fears based on no fact or logic

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No, they don't.

There is for some reason this perception that because a court precedent set the legislative sphere is automatically going to craft appropriate legislation. Historically, and even just limiting historically to medical cannabis in Canada, this has not been the case. In short, the LPC can do whatever it wants as far as new legislation/regulations. If it's not compliant, it'll be back in court of course.

And let's not forget the LPC screwed us around plenty on the MMAR, this whole mess did not start with the Conservatives. Philpott will not commit to patients being able to grow. This is at the heart of the decision, so yeah, people are concerned that the government won't commit to doing what the court said they should. Ignoring that is what is based on 'no facts or logic' (especially given Blair-bot's response in the HoC immediately after the Allard decision was released under questioning from the NDP).

And it's also a very good thing to point out that a Federal court is not the Supreme Court of Canada, and while there is a very unlikely way for Allard to be overturned at the SCC, it is theoretically still possible.

JungleStrikeGuy said:

No, they don't.

There is for some reason this perception that because a court precedent set the legislative sphere is automatically going to craft appropriate legislation. Historically, and even just limiting historically to medical cannabis in Canada, this has not been the case. In short, the LPC can do whatever it wants as far as new legislation/regulations. If it's not compliant, it'll be back in court of course.

And let's not forget the LPC screwed us around plenty on the MMAR, this whole mess did not start with the Conservatives. Philpott will not commit to patients being able to grow. This is at the heart of the decision, so yeah, people are concerned that the government won't commit to doing what the court said they should. Ignoring that is what is based on 'no facts or logic' (especially given Blair-bot's response in the HoC immediately after the Allard decision was released under questioning from the NDP).

And it's also a very good thing to point out that a Federal court is not the Supreme Court of Canada, and while there is a very unlikely way for Allard to be overturned at the SCC, it is theoretically still possible.

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There is also no indication that HC will not follow the ruling and craft legislation that is compliant. Things have changed since the early days of the mmar. I'm not sure how you get the idea the LPC screwed anyone around on that considering they made it possible for us to legally use cannabis as medicine, even though they were forced. It wasn't perfect by a long shot, and we had to fight to get the changes we need, but it was better than what we had. You seem to feel HC has some aversion to home grows and that the LPC would be willing to bet their political popularity by openly defying a court ruling on the charter rights of the sick...I don't buy it. As for the Allard decision being appealed, the health minister would not have announced they would not appeal, and then take it to a higher court. She would have announced the governments intentions at the deadline. Again I don't buy it. I get that there is a lot of mistrust when it comes to government and mmj patients, but just because something could happen, doesn't mean it will. Better to wait to fight back until you know what you are actually fighting about, imo.

We'll give it another five or so months then and we'll find out then. I'll try and remain optimistic for you VIANARCHRIS. I wanna believe...have a good day all!

VIANARCHRIS said:

There is also no indication that HC will not follow the ruling and craft legislation that is compliant. Things have changed since the early days of the mmar. I'm not sure how you get the idea the LPC screwed anyone around on that considering they made it possible for us to legally use cannabis as medicine, even though they were forced.

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The alternative was having prohibitions around cannabis fall, so don't try and paint it like the LPC were doing some great humanitarian favour for patients. If you don't believe me, you can ask anyone else who was in the MMAR during upping the DG limits by 1 Especially Alison Myrden, she's great at bringing up how the LPC very much kicked and screamed as they were forced to create the MMAR.

VIANARCHRIS said:

It wasn't perfect by a long shot, and we had to fight to get the changes we need, but it was better than what we had. You seem to feel HC has some aversion to home grows and that the LPC would be willing to bet their political popularity by openly defying a court ruling on the charter rights of the sick...I don't buy it.

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If you really think 'political popularity' depends on home grows, you're fooling yourself. The LPC has more to lose from the center / center-right support base thinking that they're turning the evil devil's weed loose. Give it time, and even the most ardent supporters of home grows will rationalize garbage regulations as 'well at least it's legal!' Pretty much the abject failure of the drug war / Harper's policies make it so that the LPC can really, really screw up legalization and still come out of it with net positive votes.

As for HC itself, they for sure have an aversion to home grows. They don't want to invest the time or manpower in inspections. The MMPR was sold as HC 'getting out of the medical marijuana business', so moving the model back from 'the product is either legal or not legal' to 'the person is either authorized or not authorized' will cost them money. Whatever database system they use to communicate to law enforcement if someone is legal to grow will also cost manpower and money.

VIANARCHRIS said:

As for the Allard decision being appealed, the health minister would not have announced they would not appeal, and then take it to a higher court. She would have announced the governments intentions at the deadline.

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That's not what the slim chance of a SCC overturn is in reference to. As of now, there is no avenue for appeal in Allard v Canada. This is really more of a clarification as to the different levels of court precedents.

It is possible, at some future date, that a case referring to the Allard precedent could go to the SCC, and overturn the Allard precedent. This is extremely unlikely, a more plausible scenario is that the TPP that Trudeau is currently championing will open the door for any non-Canadian MJ company to sue Canada because home growing impacts their profits, but that's not really applicable to the discussion. So basically, Federal Court is not the Supreme Court of Canada, that's all people are saying.

VIANARCHRIS said:

Again I don't buy it. I get that there is a lot of mistrust when it comes to government and mmj patients, but just because something could happen, doesn't mean it will. Better to wait to fight back until you know what you are actually fighting about, imo.

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This is more applicable to the 'everything will be fine' line of thought than any of the criticism in this thread. We do know 'what we are actually fighting about', and that's to make sure home growing is reflected in the amendments to the MMPR. The Health minister not committing to including home grows in the new regulations, or allowing for them beyond the August deadline is pretty much the biggest red flag beyond appealing the ruling itself, so. Without home grows there was no point to the Allard case, given extracts were covered in R v Smith.

JungleStrikeGuy said:

Philpott will not commit to patients being able to grow. This is at the heart of the decision, so yeah, people are concerned that the government won't commit to doing what the court said they should.

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When and where did she clearly state this? Last I checked it never happened. Jesus people are so convinced without evidence

JungleStrikeGuy said:

The Health minister not committing to including home grows in the new regulations, or allowing for them beyond the August deadline is pretty much the biggest red flag beyond appealing the ruling itself, so.

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Again, where did she explicitly state this?

So because they didnt have a plan at the ready, day 1, thats a red flag?

JungleStrikeGuy said:

The alternative was having prohibitions around cannabis fall, so don't try and paint it like the LPC were doing some great humanitarian favour for patients. If you don't believe me, you can ask anyone else who was in the MMAR during upping the DG limits by 1 Especially Alison Myrden, she's great at bringing up how the LPC very much kicked and screamed as they were forced to create the MMAR.

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The alternative would have been to declare Canada's constitution void, and wage a civil war to form a dictatorship. I was around for those days. I said they were forced to implement it...not that the did it as a humanitarian move. Having cannabis prohibitions fall doesn't seem like it was a huge issue for the LPC seeing as they were just elected on a promise to legalize.

JungleStrikeGuy said:

If you really think 'political popularity' depends on home grows, you're fooling yourself. The LPC has more to lose from the center / center-right support base thinking that they're turning the evil devil's weed loose. Give it time, and even the most ardent supporters of home grows will rationalize garbage regulations as 'well at least it's legal!' Pretty much the abject failure of the drug war / Harper's policies make it so that the LPC can really, really screw up legalization and still come out of it with net positive votes.

As for HC itself, they for sure have an aversion to home grows. They don't want to invest the time or manpower in inspections. The MMPR was sold as HC 'getting out of the medical marijuana business', so moving the model back from 'the product is either legal or not legal' to 'the person is either authorized or not authorized' will cost them money. Whatever database system they use to communicate to law enforcement if someone is legal to grow will also cost manpower and money.

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Political popularity depends on many things...part of that involves how they treat the sick or conform to court rulings or keep election promises. They were elected on a pro-legalization platform...I don't anticipate a return of reefer-madness. You seem convinced someone is out to intentionally screw us over, but you provide no evidence of that.
The fact that a new program will have costs associated with it has absolutely no bearing on compliance with the court decision. There has been zero mention of inspections, or any worry over costs from anyone at HC With legalization about to happen, the need for law enforcement diminishes if not disappears.

JungleStrikeGuy said:

That's not what the slim chance of a SCC overturn is in reference to. As of now, there is no avenue for appeal in Allard v Canada. This is really more of a clarification as to the different levels of court precedents.

It is possible, at some future date, that a case referring to the Allard precedent could go to the SCC, and overturn the Allard precedent. This is extremely unlikely, a more plausible scenario is that the TPP that Trudeau is currently championing will open the door for any non-Canadian MJ company to sue Canada because home growing impacts their profits, but that's not really applicable to the discussion. So basically, Federal Court is not the Supreme Court of Canada, that's all people are saying.

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I am well aware of the different levels of court, but I don't share your paranoia of the feds using the SCoC to overturn a lower court ruling on medical gardens. They've accepted the decision without complaint or reation. The TPP is not going to have any affect on a Canadian growing medicine, even if it does get signed. A foreign company or government can not use any document to take away my constitutionally guaranteed rights anymore than you can...period.

JungleStrikeGuy said:

This is more applicable to the 'everything will be fine' line of thought than any of the criticism in this thread. We do know 'what we are actually fighting about', and that's to make sure home growing is reflected in the amendments to the MMPR. The Health minister not committing to including home grows in the new regulations, or allowing for them beyond the August deadline is pretty much the biggest red flag beyond appealing the ruling itself, so. Without home grows there was no point to the Allard case, given extracts were covered in R v Smith.

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The Health Minister also didn't commit to allowing assisted dying..the courts however have left her no choice. What plan would comply with the Phelan ruling that bans home grows? Impossible...even if there was the slightest indication they want to.
I just don't buy into the doomsday scenario you are trying to sell, but I appreciate the debate.

they all went bassacwords when it started too..
the shills came out of the wood work stating HOW IT WOULD BE!

but ...ya...they were wrong as we told them over and over and over again...

VIANARCHRIS said:

I just don't buy into the doomsday scenario you are trying to sell, but I appreciate the debate.

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I agree with you. All will be fine, all this bickering is why I have not logged in for a few weeks.

Like I have stated from day one, if you have a true medical need, grow your plants, DO NOT SELL and you will be fine. If for some reason something does happen, go right to the media ASAP.

Lots of you are just over paranoid.

Do you, just do not be obnoxious about it. Use carbon filters, respect your neighborhood, and do not sell/traffic.
The more of you that stand up for your right and just grow the better it is for all of us.
If compassion clubs can get off all the time for selling to "Sick" people, then I am sure growing for yourself in a respectful way is ok.

"Lots of you are just over paranoid."

Lots of you are overly optimistic..while Bill Blair is rtghe new go to guy..

t.o. we ALL want things to be rosy..

but as i look back on the last 50 yrs..

it hasn't been..

..don't let yer guard down

for some really strange reason ...I bet he gets replaced.
I'm betting his IDEALS on how this should go get him off the case...
what am I saying...he doesn't have a clue on how it should go, neither does anyone else for that matter