Chunky Stool
Well-Known Member
Feather meal is a good slow release nitrogen (12-0-0).
ph and soil amnedments
- Thread starter im4satori
- Start date
im4satori
Well-Known Member
this is what the build a soil recommends per 5 gallons of soil
but Id like to substitute the neem cake for alfalfa meal
id also like to make sure theres enough magnesium so maybe add some dolomite also
\
Neem Cake @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Kelp Meal @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Crab Meal @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Fish Meal @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Gypsum @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
along with compost
but Id like to substitute the neem cake for alfalfa meal
id also like to make sure theres enough magnesium so maybe add some dolomite also
\
Neem Cake @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Kelp Meal @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Crab Meal @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Fish Meal @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Gypsum @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
along with compost
im4satori
Well-Known Member
so the build a soil re-amendment looks like this per 5 gallons of soil
im looking at replacing the neem cake (2-0-1) with alfalfa meal (3-1-2) which has more N & K and some P vs neem cake
im also looking for a natural source to up my magnesium so im thinking about adding a small amount of dolomite to get more magnesium
build a soil 5 gallon of soil
Neem Cake @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot (replace with alfalfa meal)
Kelp Meal @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Crab Meal @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Fish Meal @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Gypsum @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot (maybe also add 1/4 cup dolomite?)
do you think this mix is too hot?
I could cut it down to 1 cups of each per 3cubic ft/20 gallons or is that still too hot?
im looking at replacing the neem cake (2-0-1) with alfalfa meal (3-1-2) which has more N & K and some P vs neem cake
im also looking for a natural source to up my magnesium so im thinking about adding a small amount of dolomite to get more magnesium
build a soil 5 gallon of soil
Neem Cake @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot (replace with alfalfa meal)
Kelp Meal @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Crab Meal @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Fish Meal @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Gypsum @ 1/2 Cup Per Cubic Foot (maybe also add 1/4 cup dolomite?)
do you think this mix is too hot?
I could cut it down to 1 cups of each per 3cubic ft/20 gallons or is that still too hot?
Tangerine_
Well-Known Member
I have nearly killed 2 aloe plants! 
With either too much love or not enough. One I've butchered and the other has been around 4" for a couple yrs.
With spring approaching I've considered buying a couple of large aloes but I'm still leaning towards the powder for ease of use.
im4satori, I think your soil mix is darn near perfect. My first run I skipped on the basalt and used azos and it nearly drove me back to hydro. At least that's what I "think" the problem was. (micro def. popped up and were corrected with BioAGs TM7 and Kelp drench)
I'm running with the basalt now (no azos) and so far so good.
Heres a pic of a couple plants in the mix your planning on using
I really think you'll be happy you made the switch. The improved terp profiles alone are worth it.
With either too much love or not enough. One I've butchered and the other has been around 4" for a couple yrs. With spring approaching I've considered buying a couple of large aloes but I'm still leaning towards the powder for ease of use.
im4satori, I think your soil mix is darn near perfect. My first run I skipped on the basalt and used azos and it nearly drove me back to hydro. At least that's what I "think" the problem was. (micro def. popped up and were corrected with BioAGs TM7 and Kelp drench)
I'm running with the basalt now (no azos) and so far so good.
Heres a pic of a couple plants in the mix your planning on using
I really think you'll be happy you made the switch. The improved terp profiles alone are worth it.
im4satori
Well-Known Member
3 cubic ft/20 gallons soil (actually it more like 18 gallons since the pots not filled to the rim)
1 gallon EWC
1/2 gallon compost
1 gallon perlite
1/4 gallon vermiculite
1 cup alfalfa meal
1 cup kelp meal
1 cup fish meal
1 cup gypsum
1/2 cup dolomite
1 cup rock dust
does oyster shell flour fit in here somewhere?
maybe reduce gypsum to add oyster shell flour? 1/2 cup each?
what I notice about the build a soil re-amend is theres no lime agents and im not sure if the addition of oyster shell or dolomite makes sense to diversify or am I just spinning
but I am wondering where the magnesium is in the std build a soil mix
if this mix ends up light on N next time add feather meal
if this mix ends up light on P next time add fish bone meal
if this mix ends up light on K add ???????
if this mix ends up light on calcium next time add more gypsum
if this mix ends up light on magnesium next time add more dolomite
if this mix ends up light on iron next time add ???????
1 gallon EWC
1/2 gallon compost
1 gallon perlite
1/4 gallon vermiculite
1 cup alfalfa meal
1 cup kelp meal
1 cup fish meal
1 cup gypsum
1/2 cup dolomite
1 cup rock dust
does oyster shell flour fit in here somewhere?
maybe reduce gypsum to add oyster shell flour? 1/2 cup each?
what I notice about the build a soil re-amend is theres no lime agents and im not sure if the addition of oyster shell or dolomite makes sense to diversify or am I just spinning
but I am wondering where the magnesium is in the std build a soil mix
if this mix ends up light on N next time add feather meal
if this mix ends up light on P next time add fish bone meal
if this mix ends up light on K add ???????
if this mix ends up light on calcium next time add more gypsum
if this mix ends up light on magnesium next time add more dolomite
if this mix ends up light on iron next time add ???????
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im4satori
Well-Known Member
is that for 3 cubic ft/20 gallons?
im4satori
Well-Known Member
just read some info on the build a soil site
about the use of dolomite
so it says it takes years before the magnesium becomes available
copy and paste;
Many Gardeners are using Dolomite lime thinking that it will add calcium and magnesium. Problem being that it is way to high in magnesium and also virtually unavailable to the plants for a number of years. The ONLY reason nurseries and farms use Dolomite Lime is to adjust the PH up typically when using Peat Moss.
about the use of dolomite
so it says it takes years before the magnesium becomes available
copy and paste;
Many Gardeners are using Dolomite lime thinking that it will add calcium and magnesium. Problem being that it is way to high in magnesium and also virtually unavailable to the plants for a number of years. The ONLY reason nurseries and farms use Dolomite Lime is to adjust the PH up typically when using Peat Moss.
im4satori
Well-Known Member
https://waltsorganic.com/ag-lime-dolomite-gypsum-oyster-shellwhat-kind-of-calcium-do-you-need/
Agricultural Lime: Calcium carbonate – CaC03 Pure calcium carbonate is used to help prevent the spread of various diseases, such as powdery mildew, black spot, and blossom end rot. Other benefits of calcium include, protection from heat stress, increases metabolic functions in plant cells, leading to a greater intake of other nutrients such as nitrogen and phosphorus. Additionally it helps to increase general cell wall structure. Adding Ag. Lime to your soil will also raise your PH making it more alkaline.
Dolomite: Dolomitic Lime contains calcium carbonate, bringing benefits similar to Ag Lime, while also providing magnesium which is important for plants’ utilization of nitrogen, phosphorus and sulfur. Having an excess of magnesium in your soil can cause a break down in soil structure, resulting in hard compact soils.
Gypsum:Calcium sulfate, or Sulfate of Lime – CaS042H20, due to its sulfur content Gypsum does not raise the soil PH like lime, and there is some debate as to whether it lowers soil PH. Gypsum helps liberate potash for plant use. Gypsum can also help break up compact and clay filled soils by correcting excess amounts of magnesium in your soil.
Oyster Shell Flour: in addition to a large percentage of calcium carbonate, Oyster shell flour contains about 1-% phosphoric acid, which makes oyster shell flour a source of both lime (calcium) and phosphorus. Oyster shell will also slightly raise your soils PH over time. Variable particle size provides both immediate and long-term, slow release, fertilization.
how is it that oyster shell flour contains phosphoric acid and yet still raises ph.... that's odd
Agricultural Lime: Calcium carbonate – CaC03 Pure calcium carbonate is used to help prevent the spread of various diseases, such as powdery mildew, black spot, and blossom end rot. Other benefits of calcium include, protection from heat stress, increases metabolic functions in plant cells, leading to a greater intake of other nutrients such as nitrogen and phosphorus. Additionally it helps to increase general cell wall structure. Adding Ag. Lime to your soil will also raise your PH making it more alkaline.
Dolomite: Dolomitic Lime contains calcium carbonate, bringing benefits similar to Ag Lime, while also providing magnesium which is important for plants’ utilization of nitrogen, phosphorus and sulfur. Having an excess of magnesium in your soil can cause a break down in soil structure, resulting in hard compact soils.
Gypsum:Calcium sulfate, or Sulfate of Lime – CaS042H20, due to its sulfur content Gypsum does not raise the soil PH like lime, and there is some debate as to whether it lowers soil PH. Gypsum helps liberate potash for plant use. Gypsum can also help break up compact and clay filled soils by correcting excess amounts of magnesium in your soil.
Oyster Shell Flour: in addition to a large percentage of calcium carbonate, Oyster shell flour contains about 1-% phosphoric acid, which makes oyster shell flour a source of both lime (calcium) and phosphorus. Oyster shell will also slightly raise your soils PH over time. Variable particle size provides both immediate and long-term, slow release, fertilization.
how is it that oyster shell flour contains phosphoric acid and yet still raises ph.... that's odd
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
ok, sorry man, I seriously haven't stopped juggling cars all damn day..20 gallons soil 1x used ffof
perlite
vermiculite
earth worm castings
compost
alfalfa meal
fish meal
kelp meal
crab meal
gypsum
dolomite
oyster shell flour
basalt
ok so this is whats on the shopping list
@greasemonkeymann
maybe you can fill in the amounts
ok, so for 20 gallons of FFOF that's been used for one run....
alright.
to make this soil perfect you'll want more aeration, more humus, and ideally more peat or coco.
BUT, you can go a different route if you don't want to make the 40 or so gallons that you'd need in order to make the soil ideal.
Meaning in a perfect world you'd be using that old ffof as the base part, and then adding peat, compost and aeration to it
but if all you need is 20 gallons, and you already have that as FFOF i'd just tweak that mix a lil.
First the vermiculite is badass for aeration, especially when used with perlite because of its CEC and water retaining quality, that's why I use so many types of aeration, because they have different roles to play.
I'd add a good 3 gallons of vermiculite, can't overdo it with that
ok for nutrients
I'd add the following
1/2 cup neem meal
1/2 cup fish bone meal
1/2 cup kelp meal
1/4 cup crab meal
1/2 cup fish meal OR alfalfa meal
or if ya wanna be a pimp you could use a 1/4 of each of those.
Now, depending on the size of the previous plants (would indicate how much nitrogen they used up)
depending on that it may need more nitrogen.
but a half cup of fish meal would get you far along in the grow, not to mention the crab meal has slow release forms of nitrogen as well, and the neem too.
1 cup of basalt
1/4 cup oyster meal (optional since you are using d-lime)
just a tiny maybe small palmful of d-lime
I don't use gypsum normally, not that I don't think it's good though, just I have sulfur in other amendments
I believe @NaturalFarmer is the guy to ask in that regard.
So I feel compelled to mention that you DO need to age this mix, it MUST be cycled, and it MUST have good fresh microbe sources for that to happen
you can often find hippy homesteader-types that make their own compost
(like myself and @Rasta Roy , for example)
if you can get FRESH homemade compost or castings youll be stoked.
I want to be clear when I say that fresh active compost/castings is by FAR the MOST crucial input you have in your soil.
organic nutrients do nothing except fuck up the PH in a soil not cycled with microbial diversity.
punch in craigslist, put "compost" or "worm castings" in the search and you'll probably find some.
if you can't find any near you, then fuck it, go and DRIVE to get some, it's that crucial.
absolutely must not be overlooked.
If you can see pics of their compost that's even better, most will eagerly show their redworms that they have "working" for them
Yet another option would be to source some composted cow manure...
cow manure can be added in large amounts in an organic grow, and it's perfect for a slow release of nitrogen and sulfur.
with cow manure you'd usually see a bunch of redworms in there already, plus it degrades to pure humus as well.
Fuck, that reminds me further..
another option would be to find rabbit manure or alpaca manure, both of those can be used as a sole nutrient.
craigslist for all of that BTW
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greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
nah man, oyster flour is almost pure calcium carbonate, like 96%, that'll counter anything the acid does
it always will steer it alkaline, but organic soils are naturally a speck acidic (generally anyways)
Oyster flour is great if you have good sources of magnesium elsewhere.
yet another reason I like compost, not only does the higher amounts of humus support the magnesium uptake, but also it's levels
I reaaaaally like my comfrey...
it's almost a cure-all for them, small amounts of damn near everything
including calcium and magnesium
topdress some shredded fresh comfrey in the topsoil, top with fresh casting and you are on the way to having some danky-van-dankenheimer
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
it absolutely is!
I used to use the bejesus out of it
till I read that it almost ALWAYS has arsenic in it...
now I just use dog hair for that
almost identical in NPK and release rate (essentially it's the same thing, hoof and horn meal also)
annnd it just so happens that my dog manufactures it regularly
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
yea for the 20 gallons
sorta why I don't use d-lime.
I have my nutrients and PH control elsewhere
I didn't know it took so long too be available to be honest, I knew it took a lil time, but not that long
EDIT--Fuck.. my bad for the 4-posts in a row
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greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
I appreciate the patience man.
that goes far in my world.
see what you can find for compost or castings locally, that's the primary objective first
I'm closing shop, and I don't use/get internet at my house (on purpose I don't have it there)
so i'll check back tomorrow
have a good night everyone
im4satori
Well-Known Member
thatll give me some time to look over what you've posted
I wont have any problem sourcing materials
I'm sorry, but I call BS on that claim, or, at least a gross exaggeration. A statement or study with a .edu at the end (EDU is a university or similar web site), and I'll pay attention. Otherwise it's just someones opinion.
My own experience over the years has never even come close to that stated opinion and I've been growing stuff for 44 years.
The mag in dolo does release slower than the Ca and I do add some epsom salts to a new, fresh mix. But, I've never needed to add more. The mag release seems to lag about a month behind the Ca release. But years!? Child...Please! Everything I grow, not just mj, would be showing mag deficiency and nothing does, or has.
Like I said, see if you can find a university study that backs that claim up. Might take awhile.
im4satori
Well-Known Member
for my outdoor garden I was told it takes a couple months so I should throw it down in the spring
I was also told the powder is quicker than the pellets
but I don't really know
oh ya
I was also told one application is good for several years
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
funny thing is I thought of you when I read that, knowing that you use it regularly and for yrs
if anything i'd trust your advice and experience on it
Many things are contrary to what you read, and experience is the bottom line
It's a lil slow here now, let me see what I can dig up
ok..
fuck that took damn near an hour
heres what I found. copy and paste from Missouri dept of natural resources
Solubility: A piece of limestone about the size of a pinhead is all that will dissolve, though very slowly, in one gallon of pure water, with the calcite being a little bit more soluble than the dolomite. Therefore, limestone is only slightly soluble in pure water. However, solubility increases dramatically with increasing water acidity, which is accomplished by adding acids, either inorganic or organic, or by adding acid-forming gasses such as carbon dioxide and the oxides of sulfur and nitrogen to water. Limestone dissolves readily and effervescently in strong acids with the generation of carbon dioxide gas, and the rapidness of the reaction increases with increasing calcite content.
Knowing wetdog I think his soil is FULL of those organic acids, humic, fulvic and otherwise.
SO I believe the answer is, in an organic soil it's fairly soluble.
I'd have to say after the research I just did that the d-lime and magnesium is available much quicker than a yr.
BUT it is hard to find precise information regarding it.
so it's not conclusive past conjecture.
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
still haven't found a conclusive answer
BUT I did find a damn cool site with some reaaally good information
http://plantprobs.net/
BUT I did find a damn cool site with some reaaally good information
http://plantprobs.net/