The Quest for a Better Aero!

Atomizer · Jun 28, 2011

Hi Mke
Its more economical to pre root them by another method before putting them in the chamber as they can`t use the mist until they have roots. As you`ve noticed, with unrooted cuts you have to mist the hell out of them and its too wasteful

Toms grow a lot faster than peppers, if you can grab some healthy sideshoots from somewhere and stick them in a glass of water they could be showing roots by the weekend. It wouldn`t hurt to have a few on the go for backup while your running the pepper.
Small chambers make things more difficult as it takes less mist to reach the saturation point. You should scale the test so you can duplicate the results in the large chambers. For example, if the small chamber with one nozzle is 10x smaller than your fullsize chamber with 2 nozzles, you`ll need to reduce the mist pulse time by a factor of 5. If you can to run a 0.5second pulse in the fullsize chamber, the equivalent would be a 0.1 second mist pulse in the 1/10 chamber with a single nozzle

Mike Young · Jun 29, 2011

Trichy Bastard said:
Cool man, look forward to the results. I too am getting restless waiting for the mailman to deliver... Here's a fun fact about capsaicin (the "hotness" chemical in peppers). It actually does not burn you at all, but binds to your heat sensing nerves and tricks them into thinking it's hot. The feeling is so real to your brain that your body triggers a reaction (sweating, etc.) but no harm or physical burning is actually occurring. Birds lack the physiology to have capsaicin bind to their receptors, and therefore even the hottest chilies are like bell peppers to them, and they'll eat em no problem... Capsaicin also, by binding to certain receptors, can block pain- and follows the same pathways as opiates and stimulating other dopamine receptors, causing it to become somewhat addictive to eat spicy food. LOL- isn't it an interesting world...

That's pretty cool, indeed. Just the other day, I killed off an entire jar of salsa that a couple days prior was hot as shit to me. The 6 beers must've slowed my receptors

Mike Young · Jun 29, 2011

Atomizer said:
Hi Mke
Its more economical to pre root them by another method before putting them in the chamber as they can`t use the mist until they have roots. As you`ve noticed, with unrooted cuts you have to mist the hell out of them and its too wasteful Toms grow a lot faster than peppers, if you can grab some healthy sideshoots from somewhere and stick them in a glass of water they could be showing roots by the weekend. It wouldn`t hurt to have a few on the go for backup while your running the pepper.
Small chambers make things more difficult as it takes less mist to reach the saturation point. You should scale the test so you can duplicate the results in the large chambers. For example, if the small chamber with one nozzle is 10x smaller than your fullsize chamber with 2 nozzles, you`ll need to reduce the mist pulse time by a factor of 5. If you can to run a 0.5second pulse in the fullsize chamber, the equivalent would be a 0.1 second mist pulse in the 1/10 chamber with a single nozzle

I popped a tomato stem in some water this morning. I will ditch the bowl & use a 5 gallon bucket for the test. It's close to a 1/10 of the size of my big chamber, and a .5 sec in there would put me at about 2 secs in the big chambers, a figure I'm happy with.

I timed how long it took my pump to fill the acc to 100 psi. 37 mins. That should only happen every 3-5 days. Talk about low maintenance. I can't wait to get this thing dialed in. I really think it's gonna take alot of the work out of it.

Trichy Bastard · Jun 29, 2011

Mike Young said:
I popped a tomato stem in some water this morning. I will ditch the bowl & use a 5 gallon bucket for the test. It's close to a 1/10 of the size of my big chamber, and a .5 sec in there would put me at about 2 secs in the big chambers, a figure I'm happy with.

I timed how long it took my pump to fill the acc to 100 psi. 37 mins. That should only happen every 3-5 days. Talk about low maintenance. I can't wait to get this thing dialed in. I really think it's gonna take alot of the work out of it.

I'm not a math whiz, but wouldn't .5 be too long? I'd think .2 would equal 1/10th of 2 seconds? (or is there something I am missing/not accounting for?) I'd imagine the mist won't spread out the same way it will in the bigger chamber, but imagine the bucket is definitely an improvement over the bowl. Have you had a chance to measure the real world output of your sprayers in your setup yet? Also thanks for posting the time it takes for your pump to fill up the tank. My pump has a higher flowrate (.8/gpm @ 150psi) and my tank is about a third smaller, but I was imagining my pump to only be on for 4-5 minutes per cycle and I was sizing a solar panel accordingly. Now I'm just going to buy a trickle charger and see what gives. Later I'll buy the appropriate solar panel once I know for sure how much the pump will be on. .... lol -beer must be a gateway drug for salsa

Atomizer- your inbox has finally reached it's limits... Can't possibly fathom why :clap:

Mike Young · Jun 29, 2011

Trichy Bastard said:
I'm not a math whiz, but wouldn't .5 be too long? I'd think .2 would equal 1/10th of 2 seconds? (or is there something I am missing/not accounting for?) I'd imagine the mist won't spread out the same way it will in the bigger chamber, but imagine the bucket is definitely an improvement over the bowl. Have you had a chance to measure the real world output of your sprayers in your setup yet? Also thanks for posting the time it takes for your pump to fill up the tank. My pump has a higher flowrate (.8/gpm @ 150psi) and my tank is about a third smaller, but I was imagining my pump to only be on for 4-5 minutes per cycle and I was sizing a solar panel accordingly. Now I'm just going to buy a trickle charger and see what gives. Later I'll buy the appropriate solar panel once I know for sure how much the pump will be on. .... lol -beer must be a gateway drug for salsa

You missed the single mister in the bucket, vs the two in the bins

One nozzle produced 180ml in 24 hrs at .5 on, 5 min off. Give or take a little as I was screwing with the mist time for 20 min or so.

You're right about the mist not spreading the same as in the larger space. I decided on 1 full sec for the bucket, and really hope that doesn't equate to 5 secs in the bins, cause that's around 5 gallons every 2 days. Eek! I'm sure glad I decided to do a test run. Although, I don't think I have to worry about keeping plants alive. Just nailing down a solid mist time & nute regiment.

Trichy Bastard · Jun 29, 2011

Mike Young said:
You missed the single mister in the bucket, vs the two in the bins

One nozzle produced 180ml in 24 hrs at .5 on, 5 min off. Give or take a little as I was screwing with the mist time for 20 min or so.

You're right about the mist not spreading the same as in the larger space. I decided on 1 full sec for the bucket, and really hope that doesn't equate to 5 secs in the bins, cause that's around 5 gallons every 2 days. Eek! I'm sure glad I decided to do a test run. Although, I don't think I have to worry about keeping plants alive. Just nailing down a solid mist time & nute regiment.

Ok cool, sorry I missed that. Yeah I'm gonna do some tests with tomatoes myself once I get my rig built (aren't we cute little vegetable gardeners). If all goes well we can meet up and make some mean salsa... hehe... One other thing- I wonder if those dig sprayers throw out inconsistent spray volume compared to eachother- with what they're designed for and the screw on tip and all... A single straight forward orifice would seem like alot less left to variables/fabrication inconsistencies than all the threads and 2 part nozzle- It might be worth taking a couple separate samples?

Atomizer · Jun 29, 2011

Hey Mike,
By my reckoning, your accumulator should run the test bucket for about 10 weeks or your main setup for 4 days and 9hours, easy life for the pump

Its best to set the pulse timing as low as possible but make sure its enough to fill the chamber with mist.
Based on your figures, i make the actual nozzle flowrate around 1.189gph or 4.5lph.

soulglow · Jun 29, 2011

i have worked in a produce department, that had a bad ass misting system, is this what u guys are talking about?????

Mike Young · Jun 29, 2011

Trichy Bastard said:
Ok cool, sorry I missed that. Yeah I'm gonna do some tests with tomatoes myself once I get my rig built (aren't we cute little vegetable gardeners). If all goes well we can meet up and make some mean salsa... hehe... One other thing- I wonder if those dig sprayers throw out inconsistent spray volume compared to eachother- with what they're designed for and the screw on tip and all... A single straight forward orifice would seem like alot less left to variables/fabrication inconsistencies than all the threads and 2 part nozzle- It might be worth taking a couple separate samples?

The tips don't thread on, exactly. Not being an engineer, it's hard for me to explain how they assemble, but they are consistant. When you get your system going, you should give one a try for the hell of it. See what ya think.

Atomizer said:
Hey Mike,
By my reckoning, your accumulator should run the test bucket for about 10 weeks or your main setup for 4 days and 9hours, easy life for the pump Its best to set the pulse timing as low as possible but make sure its enough to fill the chamber with mist.
Based on your figures, i make the actual nozzle flowrate around 1.189gph or 4.5lph.

What would the world do without math geniouses like atomizer? I'm glad there are people out there with such patience. I've always been an ear to the ground, feel shit out kind of guy. Not the most nimble approach, but I usually get there one way or another. Thanks!

Mike Young · Jul 5, 2011

I'm starting jto get root hairs on my pepper plant, but not all over. Just a few patches here & there. There are large droplets on the roots. Are those supposed to be there? Is the idea to not have any large droplets form anywhere on the root system? It's been 1 week since I put the plant in, and I thought I would have more hairs by now. The plant did come from a pretty N rich soil enviroment to now getting plain R/O, zero nutes. My tomato cutting isn't rooting very quickly, or I would've thrown it in. I think I only have about a week.5 to get some clones. Keepin my fingers crossed.

Trichy Bastard · Jul 5, 2011

Mike Young said:
I'm starting jto get root hairs on my pepper plant, but not all over. Just a few patches here & there. There are large droplets on the roots. Are those supposed to be there? Is the idea to not have any large droplets form anywhere on the root system? It's been 1 week since I put the plant in, and I thought I would have more hairs by now. The plant did come from a pretty N rich soil enviroment to now getting plain R/O, zero nutes. My tomato cutting isn't rooting very quickly, or I would've thrown it in. I think I only have about a week.5 to get some clones. Keepin my fingers crossed.

Congrats! I have a feeling the smaller chamber will never have as good results as the bigger one. You'll probably end up with spots of concentrated wetness- hence the droplets. Just a guess as all my aero experience is hypothetical- lol. What is the holdup on using the larger chambers btw?

Mike Young · Jul 5, 2011

Trichy Bastard said:
What is the holdup on using the larger chambers btw?

The root mass is pretty small. I'm trying to conserve water, as I have to fill 5 gallon bottles at the store. Not my favorite thing to do, but I have so much iron in my well that I'd have to prefilter the shit out of it before even thinking about an R/O system.

Trichy Bastard · Jul 5, 2011

Bummer man... Gotta get that sorted. you could easily get away with 2 5gal bottles of water from the store filled once per week, probably last a bit longer... Otherwise might be spinning your wheels with those small chambers. In my mind it has less to do with root size as it does with the mist being able to spread out properly...

I believe chlorine causes iron to precipitate out of solution. Perhaps you could pretreat the water and let it gas off- although it's a bit of a pain. Guess google might be some help in the problem...

Atomizer · Jul 6, 2011

Droplets on the roots suggests overmisting, too large a droplet size or mist being fired directly at the roots. A magnifying glass is the ideal tool for checking the roots and fine tuning the timing.

Mike Young · Jul 6, 2011

Yeah, that's what I figured. I made some changes yesterday, and appear to be on the right track. I didn't lose any of my fuzz, and no droplets hangin out on the roots, but as TB pointed out, the small bucket is proving to be difficult to get adequate coverage.

Trichy Bastard · Jul 8, 2011

Hey Mike- just checkin in. Was wondering how things have been going the last few days. Any progress with the roots?

This is really a big undertaking the first time. Even when you think you have it all down so it'll be easy, so many other variables that weren't considered seem to pop up- and we all have our own individual situations too, like your water for instance... Just think how much harder it was for Tree farmer and Atomizer- without really any others out there to learn from back then...

Mike Young · Jul 19, 2011

Alrighty, it's been awhile. Not a whole lot to report. Just thought I'd post up a couple root pics from the pepper plant that has been kind of a let down. The first week I over-watered, and made up for it by under-watering for another week.

I finally got settled on 1 sec on, 3 min off. Seems to work the best in the 5 gallon bucket, though my choice of plant and that it was in rich composted soil I believe are screwin me.

I scored this sweet cabinet (free) that I am in the process of turning into a mom box. It measures 6' tall, 2'x2'. I removed the plexi-glass from the door, and plan to replace with something opaque. I am NOT waiting this long for clones again. Still don't have them yet, but I'm hoping this source will work out. Keeping my fingers crossed. Being a rookie & not knowing people is proving quite the obstacle.

So, only a fraction of the roots are fuzzy, but I think it's a start.

Trichy Bastard · Jul 19, 2011

Good to hear a status report man. You're one step closer than before and all the wiser from this experiment. Hey a little fuzz is better than none at all, right? That cabinet is sweet- especially if you got it for free!

DIRTHAWKER · Aug 16, 2011

Im glad i found this thread. Im in the process of setting up a low pressure 60 site vertical run. I was hoping to get some feedback before i start the trial and error process, maybe it will save me alot of work.

Treefarmer recomended i use this pump for my LP system. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item1c1b25e243&item=120714551875&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=Ed1r582usLTscpR2KHskJhfnejk%253D

I want to use the high flow red sprayers beacuse they rarely clog, but i think with these sprayers this pump will probably run almost continualy? I was thinking of going with the DIG misters rated at .8gph http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_parts/602

I know with my design and such a small root chamber that trying to get HP roots will be impossible. But my question is: does it really matter when im just trying to go for a LP run? The .8 DIG misters will serve a purpose to keep from the pump having to over cycle. Even if i put two misters in each bucket (1.6gph) its still less water flow that the accumulator tank would need to pressurize. ?

I will be adding the 4th wall to complete the cube (60) sprayers

PetFlora · Aug 16, 2011

Hey DirtT: I have done 4 complete quasi HPA/TAG grows but only the last 2 with a complete HPA rig (sans accumulator). The best grow I ever had was a simple F & D where the trays were flooded 3-4 times a day. hth

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