Vegan Organics Aka Veganics With Matt Rize

All sorts of vegan-organic organization exist worldwide. It is also known as stock free organic farming, and "green" organics.

http://www.veganorganic.net/links.htm

Here goes a discussion that I had no part in about the smoking quality of some vegan organic flowers. To quote the person who actually tried it and isn't just hating: "...i mean i actually smoked some of the stuff grown with it and its substantially smoother and a cleaner high." BOOM

Of course there are opinions on both sides, but the guy who actually tried it liked it. I can't make this sh*t up.

https://tokecity.com/forums/archive/index.php4/t-37978.html

And another review of some vegan organic herb: "Their herb was hands down the smoothest, best tasting herb I've ever had..."

http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f6/kyle-kushman-veganic-project-23109/

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.

Here goes more on vegan organic gardening. Something about horse manure, which I was asked about earlier.

http://www.flyingbeet.com/veganic.html

"In 2007 The University of Minnesota completed an empirical study of our "crazy" Veganic claims (see below), and guess what? We were proven RIGHT!

Organic crops grown using factory farmed manures and offal are now PROVEN to take up the toxic products used in those factory farms! People buying USDA Certified Organic products and thinking they are avoiding the chemicals that poured onto factory farms (and into confinement factory-raised animals) are being horribly fooled....And if USDA Organic isn't that choice, then what is?

"Research by the University of Washington last year gives more credibility to our nutty purist ideals. Broad-Leaf weed herbicide was applied during reconditioning of a hay pasture. The hay grew over months, and the roots soaked up the herbicide (just like non-organic carrots were found last year to soak up other broad-spectrum herbicides even two years after application). Months of rain and baking sun didn't break the herbicide down... the hay was harvested, sat in a barn, was slowly fed to horses... where the herbicide BIO-ACCUMULATED in their bodies and was then passed in their manure."

http://www.vegforlife.org/health_veganic_farming.html

"Although organic farmers avoid pesticides, synthetic fertilizers and genetically modified crops, many still use animal manures and slaughterhouse byproducts like bone, blood and fish meal. Animal agriculture byproducts can be contaminated with toxic chemicals, antibiotics and disease-causing bacteria, spoiling the whole point of organic agriculture. However, a growing trend in organic farming, called “veganic farming,” is bringing about some big changes in the way food is grown. Combining organic farming methods with vegan philosophy, veganic farmers are cultivating a better way to grow safe, healthy and animal-friendly food."

You're once again talking about issues that humans brought to the environment in the first place. What if that contaminated hay was fermented and sold at top dollar as "Vegan" fertilizer? 100% PLANT BASED!

I don't know of any OMRI arctic seabird guano (and I actually looked that one up). These seabirds being at higher trophic levels makes them the exception rather than the rule, as far as organics is concerned. Not to mention that the majority of bat/seabird guano in organic fertilizers is from deposits that are at least several hundreds of years old (no POPs), which have decomposed and fossilized. Many are considered to be mined minerals as opposed to animal wastes. Also, these certified guanos are harvested in an ecological and sustainable manner, supporting families and communities where the harvesting takes place.

None of this means that animal by-product derived fertilizers in and of themselves are harmful, it means that farmers everywhere need to get their shit together and watch what they feed their animals and apply to their crops. Just because people have introduced pollutants to the environment it means that any and all animal waste derived fertilizers automatically, irrefutably negative, or even dangerous?
Such things are affecting the environment as a whole, not just animals in it. Just as you said, plants can uptake pollutants also. And you go raving about "bioaccumulation" - a term which I doubt you fully understand - but even so, pollutants may 'bioaccumulate' or 'biomagnify' in organisms (primarily those at the top of the food chain) but we introduced them to the environment in the first place.

If NOP regulations can be assessed and changed to better conform to the definition of organic production and the situation improved, that is wonderful. In other words, if something is broken it should be fixed; but I am not about to go spend ridiculous sums of money on "VEGAN NUTES" because of it.

Nullis said:

You're once again talking about issues that humans brought to the environment in the first place...

...If NOP regulations can be assessed and changed to better conform to the definition of organic production and the situation improved, that is wonderful. In other words, if something is broken it should be fixed; but I am not about to go spend ridiculous sums of money on "VEGAN NUTES" because of it.

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Yes, we did introduce the problem of POPs, agreed. Bio Canna is not made from questionable sources. They have a reputation to uphold and these metals can be tested for. Like all organics, plant sourcing is crucial too. Good point.

From my research the guanos are from fresh sources. The hundred+ year old deposits you speak of have been long depleted, as animal based organics have played a huge role in the growth of humanity over the past thousand years. The seabird guano being collected is from fiercely guarded islands that are turned into guano production facilities. The islands are harvested every few years and all sorts of un-natural retaining walls are built to catch the guano. Also, environmental/human rights records for harvesting guanos are mixed, as with any wild harvested product, as some of my links support.

Agreed, organic animal products are not automatically "bad" or "inferior" to plant based in any way. But many people are using commercial organic products from questionable sources. I would love to see more strict organic certifications. Organic farmers do need to get it together, until then...veganics for me, as expense is not really an issue in a prop215/sb420 world.

And then there are the people who just choose to not use animal products in their lives. Respect for all.

Nullis said:

You're once again talking about issues that humans brought to the environment in the first place. What if that contaminated hay was fermented and sold at top dollar as "Vegan" fertilizer? 100% PLANT BASED!

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What!? That is far fetched. The plant based nutes I'm talking about are not made from hay, that's CRAZY! Hay is grown very differently than this stuff. My nutes are mostly made from:
A) Kelp and seaweeds (primary as it gets for a food source)
B) Fermented/Extracted Hops (IMO genius, only thing better would be to use hemp...one day. And what makes BioCanna so expensive)
C) Vinasse (inexpensive carb source)
D) other stuff depending on which supplement. but certainly not fermented/extracted animal poop.

A product, like the one you've imagined, wouldn't make it long on the market and I wouldn't use it. Gotta do the research with whatever you use...if you have to buy something.

Another group for plant based nutrition: http://www.vegansociety.com/lifestyle/home-and-garden/vegan-organic-gardening.aspx

"All life ultimately depends on plants, and the plants do not have to be wastefully passed through an animal in order to work. Those who say that animals are an essential part of agriculture have been conclusively proved wrong by the commercial growers who use animal free techniques and by government sponsored research into the subject. Animal based agriculture is in fact harming the world's environment."

There is a bat guano derived product that I've been using, because I am a realist and for now I want to have a stand alone P. Bat guano is filling in the hole in my system, the P. I've been using Nature's nectar N (soy derived), Technaflora soluble seaweed for K, and Nature's nectar P (bat guano derived).

Nature's nectar P is clear and odorless, really very different than a typical poop tea. I only use a little, as needed to supplement my plant based nutrient system. But I wanted to point out that I am not 'poo-pooing' a little poop.

Matt Rize said:

Here goes a discussion that I had no part in about the smoking quality of some vegan organic flowers. To quote the person who actually tried it and isn't just hating: "...i mean i actually smoked some of the stuff grown with it and its substantially smoother and a cleaner high." BOOM

Of course there are opinions on both sides, but the guy who actually tried it liked it. I can't make this sh*t up.

https://tokecity.com/forums/archive/index.php4/t-37978.html

Click to expand...

Matt Rize said:

And another review of some vegan organic herb: "Their herb was hands down the smoothest, best tasting herb I've ever had..."

http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f6/kyle-kushman-veganic-project-23109/

Click to expand...

kingofqueen said:

Right on ! He does have some great pictures I checked him out and the mission statement there is clear and concise as to explaining what vegan organics actually is . Pretty interesting over all I think . But I also think it,s kinda of an advanced technique . I,m just do " Simple "
organics I like to call it . Organic based soil with kelp based organic fertilizer . I,m still learning but having some good sucess to this point with my current grow. There are some many how ,why ,this and that diff ways people push trying to grow , so I,m keeping it simple and learing to read my plants . Less is more ! and less varibles to try to control .

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Less is more in life. Agreed friend.
I've been learning to read plants on soil/organics since creation, and it is no longer challenging, mom and grandma brought me up that way. Time to go beyond that. I am a public Cannabis figure who went to an organic farm school to study Cannabis as much as I could. My freedoms here have driven me to return to challenging myself again. Time to work on perfecting something else, you know what I mean? Plus, I need something new to talk about on public/private speaking occasions

Matt Rize said:

Yes, we did introduce the problem of POPs, agreed. Bio Canna is not made from questionable sources. They have a reputation to uphold and these metals can be tested for. Like all organics, plant sourcing is crucial too. Good point.

From my research the guanos are from fresh sources. The hundred+ year old deposits you speak of have been long depleted, as animal based organics have played a huge role in the growth of humanity over the past thousand years. The seabird guano being collected is from fiercely guarded islands that are turned into guano production facilities. The islands are harvested every few years and all sorts of un-natural retaining walls are built to catch the guano. Also, environmental/human rights records for harvesting guanos are mixed, as with any wild harvested product, as some of my links support.

Agreed, organic animal products are not automatically "bad" or "inferior" to plant based in any way. But many people are using commercial organic products from questionable sources. I would love to see more strict organic certifications. Organic farmers do need to get it together, until then...veganics for me, as expense is not really an issue in a prop215/sb420 world.

And then there are the people who just choose to not use animal products in their lives. Respect for all.

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Traditional organics is not just 'animal-based', once again, and fossilized guano/seabird deposits (hundreds/thousands of years old) are still plentiful enough- perhaps even largely undiscovered, in caves that have collapsed long ago. Fresher (months old) guano deposits are also harvested ecologically and sustainably in active caves during periods when the bats are not present. It is apparently also rich in bioremediation microbes that stave off fungus and diseases and enhance the decomposition of organic matter. Sunleaves guanos are OMRI, supposedly mined from centuries old deposits in an environmentally friendly manner. Still, bat/seabird guano is a relatively small piece of the puzzle.
http://www.organicguano.com/og_faqs_f.htm
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/media-and-info/bats-archives.html?task=viewArticle&magArticleID=746
http://www.batcon.org/index.php/all-about-bats/111-intro-to-bats/18-benefits-of-bats.html
http://www.archipelagobatguano.com/4.shtml

Expensive nutrients may very well not be a problem for you. It just seems odd for a person seemingly concerned with the sustainability and 'cleanliness' of fertilizer sources, including issues related to how the employees on the ground are treated, that you don't consider how all that extra money you're spending could have went to feed, clothe and educate poor children around the globe.

Metals content of all fertilizers are regulated and tested for. Even so, "Federal, state and industry sponsored risk-based assessments1 have been completed and the results demonstrate that metals in fertilizer generally do not pose harm to human health or the environment." - http://www.aapfco.org/aapfcorules.html

I was always under the impression that a product such as a certified organic bone meal had to come from certified organic cows that ate a certified organic diet; derived from certified organic crops, grown with certified organic fertilizers.

In any case, I feel that it is more respectful to use every part of an animal and not let things go to waste. If nutrients can be recovered from 'wastes' and 'by-products'; returned to the environment and utilized, with minimal negative impact then it is a good thing. Whether it is kitchen waste or animal excrement, it is all part of an organic cycle of life - grow - death -decomposition. Certainly this is better than using synthetic fertilizers, which do absolutely nothing to build or nurture the soil or it's micro-life and further hinder soil fertility in the long run.

Nullis said:

... Certainly this is better than using synthetic fertilizers, which do absolutely nothing to build or nurture the soil or it's micro-life and further hinder soil fertility in the long run.

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Great info Nul, thanks for contributing

And YES, eff synthetics!

I also want to re-iterate my love for traditional organics. Everything I eat is organic, or biodynamic, or uncertified but from friends. I am choosing, for several personal (aka IMHO) reasons, to pursue the idea that vegan organic Cannabis may have benefits over plant/animal based organics. I have posted links to many organizations that feel the same way about food products, but I do not go that far personally. I support my local organic farmers! But in this 215/420 world: we don't sell food as 'medicine', although I'll bet I can find many who believe food can be medicine. But we do sell Cannabis as medicine, so why not pursue the possibility of finding the most pure path? You will never know if that path exists without trying. I've been trying, and IMHO, it is a cleaner smoke.

This whole issue arose for me because of the issues concerning indoor organic gardens that are on heavy feeding situations in containers. Many of my issues are negated by growing outdoors in the ground.

http://www.organicguano.com/og_faqs_f.html SELLS GUANO: FAIL

http://www.batcon.org/index.php/medi...gArticleID=746 FURTHER CONVINCED ME THAT ANY HIDDEN LARGE DEPOSITS ARE LONG GONE. THE MAJORITY OF DEPOSITS THAT ARE REMOTELY ACCESSIBLE HAVE BEEN HARVESTED, AND ARE BEING CONTINUALLY HARVESTED AS COST/DEMAND ALLOWS.

http://www.batcon.org/index.php/all-...s-of-bats.html DOESN'T SAY MUCH ABOUT THIS ISSUE

http://www.archipelagobatguano.com/4.shtml ALSO SELLS GUANO: FAIL

maybe it's me, but the above links didn't work

upthearsenal said:

maybe it's me, but the above links didn't work

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Sorry, you have to go to the original posting a few posts back. It did not copy correctly.

Fail because a company that harvests and distributes guano answers questions about where their product comes from and how it is harvested? Archipelago harvests and distributes OMRI-certified fossilized guano, thoroughly describing their harvesting practices and even having the guano analyzed for pathogens as well as nutrient content. You obviously didn't give any of the information there a look, because there is plenty of stuff about the toxicity of other fertilizers for you to take out of context.

Point is that there are conservation-oriented organizations and [much of] the guano industry supports them. If not due to the various good things that bats do for the environment (as outlined in the articles), then for the simple reason that no bats = no guano = no guano to sell.

But again, this is doting on a minor piece of the puzzle here.

Sorry for the harshness, I just do not trust the info from people who have something to sell, much like the skeptics that confronted me instantly for sounding too much like an ad.

And, as I posted before, I do use a bat guano derived product for supplementation. The world is not black and white, and we can find links all day to back-up basically anything that we want. I'm not grouping all animal derived organic products together under some "inferior" label, just attempting to share and explore what I've been into lately.

The fact that there are so many vegan organic organizations worldwide is evidence that I am not alone.