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What are your essential nutrients and supplements for your plants?

Discussion in 'Advanced Marijuana Cultivation' started by Ivan___, Nov 4, 2017.

  1.  
    Ivan___

    Ivan___ Member

    I have been using the same fox farm trio and calmagzing for years.

    The best thing about it ? It works.

    The downside? It doesn't produce exceptional cannabis.

    The more I read about growing, the more I learn. I was recently introduced to Cannabis - Evolution and Ethnobotany. This is an exceptionally deep study on the subject, available for free online (http://magicgreenery.com/download/i...s_Evolution&Ethnobotany_Clarke&Merlin2013.pdf)

    One thing that sticks out to me in my reading is the overwhelming importance of the growing environment to the finished product. Genetics does not play nearly as big of a role as I had thought. It is very likely that the strains I thought to be "exceptional" are just exceptionally suitable for my specific growing environment.

    This has led me to broaden my understanding on nutrients and supplements, to learn more about the specific flavors profile and characteristics that they can impart on the plant.

    Please share your experience in this area
     
  2.  
    Chunky Stool

    Chunky Stool Well-Known Member

    Genetics are the foundation of a good grow.
    Kind of like fishing where the fish are. If you don't get that right, everything else is irrelevant. :roll:
     
    ruwtz and Lucky Luke like this.
  3.  
    Lucky Luke

    Lucky Luke Well-Known Member

    Agree with Chunky, how stable the genetics are plays a huge part.

    I'm subbed up as this could get interesting, its something I know zip about that I would like to.
     
  4.  
    WeedFreak78

    WeedFreak78 Well-Known Member

    "....
    There are 16 most important nutrients for plants. Plants must obtain the following mineral nutrients from their growing medium:[2]


    Doesn't really matter where they come from as long as they are in sufficient quantities and balanced.
     
    ruwtz, budman111, xtsho and 2 others like this.
  5.  
    Ivan___

    Ivan___ Member

    That's fine but if we are discussing high quality genetics the difference between one potent, stable strain and another is less significant than it might seem. One clone might show certain characteristics in one growing environment (indoors, HPS lights, rigid 12/12 lighting and feeding schedule) and very different in another (outdoors). It seems like additives such as fish emulsions or pig manure can impart the same flavors and terps into the bud regardless of the strain
     
  6.  
    Chunky Stool

    Chunky Stool Well-Known Member

    Environment definitely matters but your analogy only works with strains that are similar.
    I grew four strains outdoors this year -- same environment, soil & nutrients.
    All of them ended up very different from each other.
     
  7.  
    Ivan___

    Ivan___ Member

    What I'm saying is that maybe any one of them could have turned out the way the other three did if they were planted in a different environment. The genetics play a big role in how the plant reacts to a given environment, less of a role in the total spectrum of it's genetic potential. If 10,000 clones of each plant were planted in 10,000 different environments, you may find all of the plants can look all of the ways you saw in your garden.

    There are only a few types of cannabis out there - broad leaf, narrow leaf, and hemp. Of course most plants contain genetic material from all three. The distinction between the broad leaf cannabis indica and narrow leafed cannabis sativa is postdiluvian. They share a relatively recent common ancestor. The genetic differences between a Jamaican land-race and a Nepalese land-race may be little more than the factors that allow them to thrive in their respective environments
     
  8.  
    Chunky Stool

    Chunky Stool Well-Known Member

    It is an interesting theory, but I can't imagine Afgooey tasting anything like plushberry. Or Cindy99 tasting like sour diesel.
    Some folks say K2SO4 gives cannabis a citrus profile, but I'm not 100% convinced.
    How would I transform a citrus strain like Cindy99 into something like sour diesel? (or vice versa)
     
  9.  
    Ivan___

    Ivan___ Member

    I think in practice it's more complex than this. Maybe four broad terpine profiles. Something like Floral, Earth, Citrus, and Skunk. If you plant a bunch of cindy99 plants most of them will be more citrus than skunk but then there's one that smells skunky. if you worked with that one you might be able to grow something closer to the sour d
     
  10.  
    cindysid

    cindysid Well-Known Member

    @Dr. Who has discussed altering flavor profiles by the use of different nutrients.. I hope he will chime in .
     
    Chunky Stool likes this.
  11.  
    Dr. Who

    Dr. Who Well-Known Member

    If you can control your environment down to holding an ambient to 3 deg. F rise with lights on. Limit night drops by 10 and hold +/- 5% RH with an average set of 45%. You can produce with consistency. Being able to run consistently is a key factor in reaching for potentials. The location of the thermostat is important to the control of the "layers" of temp in the room. When you look at a thermometer. Your only reading the ambient temp at that level. Put your hand under your (HID) light at the canopy level. That's not the room's ambient temp at the therm level, is it?
    I've found if you can keep your canopy at the mid to higher 80's (all about adjusting light hood distance). The middle area of the the plant to about 73-75 and the root zone around 68. Your golden for a soil grow operation. For hydro, you need to keep the res/pot temps below 69 to ward off root rot...... Placement of your temp controlling devise is key in this limit factor.

    After that is proper nutrient ratio's and supplementing for potential. I do it simply. I also make my own supplements and in synthetic use, stick to 2 parts of a 3 part system. I don't need the veg. nutrient as I up pot with 30 day soil and Solo's last just right to up to 1, to 3's and or 5's and 7's being last pot for bloom. I use a mix of re-amended used soil at about that 30 available nutrient days. I feed daily from day 1 (I have the 30 day soil balancing the increased needs of the "stretching" plant. As the soil nutrient tapers, the "stretch" is ending) off the bloom room and amend the same. I water a metered amount that does change as the plant grows. That metered amount last me from lights on to the next day, lights on. This brings more O2 to the roots and that is a good thing.

    The supplements end at the last 2 -3 weeks of the plants life. I run longer then most people I have ever met and I do that for final quality.. Very important.

    If your growing from seed, or even clone. You move the plant out of it's familiar environment. It will react by "shifting" it's growth patterns to that new environment. Thing is, it could take a whole single generation and the next clone express's that shift, or it could take 3 or even more generations (the seed plant is run from seed once and the following clones show the shift). This is a physical change, potency's and content, do not "shift" so much as you enhance or harm them by what you feed and when.

    Changing or affecting trep profiles by what you feed or by what you supplement is quite true. Manipulating and doing it to get consistent results. Locks you into 2 forms of S that with the other part of the compound, effect flavor enhancement.

    Mag Sulfate will make a more berry profile stand out. It also increases trichome production. So from that fact alone, your increasing Cannabinoid and terpene levels by volume.
    Potassium Sulfate will make a more citrus profile stand out. It also does the same as The Mg for trich's/terp's. It also helps increase yield by adding mass to buds. It will also help strains that can color, to color.....

    If you doubt this information. Simply try it.

    I make my own of each and use each in an equal amount by volume. Longer running of chemdog makes the second harvest smell very blue berry/grape like. I have patients that go bonkers for that specific "late harvest" dog...The first harvest is the more conventional lemony profile. I have an old,old pheno of Blue Berry, that basically smells little like BB but, has a light spicy/earthy twang. Longer running makes her more traditional but, it never did have much BB profile to it. Slaps you hard. Right into a chair and you sit there, quite stupid for about the duration.....

    I find by balancing the 2 by volume. The plants will retain their normal profiles and enhance them too. A few strains will shift one way or the other a bit, and some change profile with extended run times....

    Adjusting them by any amount would be only limited by the way you meter them....

    Another thing is you can increase THC and/or CBD by pretty precise formulation of a mix of micro nutrients. Key being Fe and Mn. You also add others to balance/buffer and enhance the reactions of the used micro's relationships with each other.

    Mel Frank did work in this, and gives a formula to do just what I'm talking about here. Thing is, back when he was doing this work. He didn't know the formula he listed, does more to raise CBD then THC....A very simple adjustment of that formula would flip that to more THC. You need to make this stuff by weighing dry chem's and mixing with a single gallon of water... Read his books, tells you how.....:)
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  12.  
    Ivan___

    Ivan___ Member

    great post, this is exactly the kind of information i was hoping folks would share
     
  13.  
    Flowki

    Flowki Well-Known Member

    @Dr. Who

    What is your take on silica? for use in coco. I've never really concerned myself with it due to P-silica PH raising nature and binding risk. Some people talk of foliar spraying it but I don't like the sound of that either.

    I have considered using basalt top dressing or mixed in. For seasonal crops it is considered to be fast releasing with a 2 month prep period but that seems to slow for this purpose. Would adding this to a continual worm bin and then top dressing or brewing castings be a better option for providing basalt's silica and ofc the many other benefits of basalt and castings?. While on that topic how do you think worm casting compare to the likes of recharge or instant brew products.
     
  14.  
    chemphlegm

    chemphlegm Well-Known Member

    quality nutrients while able to exploit different flavors and smells dont impart those flavors, instead they allow the plant to express more fully, resulting in wider variety of terpene profiles to develop properly.
    when I use hydro nutes as directed the result is great. when I use chicken shit and promix the result is better. when I use hydro nutes in promix the result is great, but the chicken shit is a better experience for me and the plants.. Same goes for my tomatoes,greenhouse and grow room. Organically feeding gives me a different experience.
    Lack of proper nutrients will always result in lack of proper development, will always make stellar genetics shitty as the plant grows to its weakest resource. If had to choose I'd rather have spot on room conditions than some famous strain name to begin with.

    I've grown most of what the Attitude offers, along with every cup winner from every country and I found no bad genetics, (not including auto's and sex stability) as in ones that dont get you high, or ones that nobody likes. I found some more potent than others, some stinkier too. The best strain I ever had can be fucked up in mere days with ill nutrients and result in garbage. The worst in my bag can be grown to its fullest expression and be a good b grade weed garnishing little complaint.

    when I began maintaining a minimal of 400ppm's at mid leaf levels my efforts paid off big. Some can do this with exchange/movement I hear but no amount of air exchange/movement in my indoor rooms or greenhouses could do this without augmentation. I tried and tried not even on a budget and couldnt do it without upsetting other controls too often for my liking.
    I found it necessary to seal my room and stop the outdoor exchange for better control of temps/humidity and c02 efficiency. Once completed it was the last on my resource list and I immediately recognized my c02 as a limiting factor in the past. if all your other variables are not optimal (light, fertilizer, temp/humidity, pH, etc.) you will not achieve the benefits of increased CO2 levels anyways and juggling those together is a challenge often depending on your ambient yearly grow space conditions.
    I've got shelves of nutient systems, hydro, organic, soil, etc.
    The best fertilizer experience I ever found in my space is promix bx (edit-I mean HP) with organicare dry ferts and my spring water when the promix dries. ease of use, cost per plant, hazards, management, dosing, availability, labor, results considered.

    my rabbit poop, fresh and raw, tea or dried crumbles it was incredible. all techniques come with downsides, like dealing with poop and meds.
    next best was from my 100k worm farm, fed exclusively with dried cannabis leaves only, raised in my grow room. that was fun for sure, but the labor became too much for me to manage. Black gold is near unbeatable but hot, but a single rabbit in a cage will produce enough poop daily to fertilize an mj plant from start to finish without burn. I fed mine lawn cuttings and marijuana trim weekly.

    good thread @op
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
  15.  
    Chunky Stool

    Chunky Stool Well-Known Member

    Good info here!
    I just finished an organic outdoor grow that went pretty well. There were deficiencies that I treated with nutrient tea, but sometimes I felt like I was chasing my tail. It's very possible that I had excess amounts of certain nutes that caused deficiencies in others.
    In my opinion, this is one of the disadvantages of organic soil -- control. One of the problems was probably my fresh worm castings. They may have been too hot, since all I feed my worms is kitchen scraps, shredded paper, and oyster shell flour (to keep PH up). Do you guys have your vermicompost tested?
    @chemphlegm -- just curious, why do you prefer promix BX over HP?
    For my next grow, I'm thinking about going synthetic with a gritty mix that minimizes the perched water table, or PWT.
    (Not to be confused with PYT... :hump:)
    PWT is real.
    I've got a tub of coco outside getting rinsed by rainwater. Yesterday there was no water around the tub -- until I gave it a stir, and a LOT of water drained out. Hmm... sure sounds like PWT. I should add a wick as an experiment to see if that fixes it.

    More info:
    http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1423691/container-soils-water-movement-and-retention-xvi
     
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  16.  
    chemphlegm

    chemphlegm Well-Known Member

    I use HP, .....where did I say I preferred BX? sorry.
    I avoid that BX one, dunno, but I dont need any anti fungals in my room.
    I found bales for 26 dollars I load my pick up couple times a year.
    grow store mogul wants 46 bucks/bale,
    @ Chunky Stool
     
  17.  
    vostok

    vostok Well-Known Member

    This was one of the bigger ideas of this book

    ...that 'Genetics does not play nearly as big of a role as I had thought. but implies location does'

    differing locations implies differing nutes, light, warmth

    a great book, that says the same thing over and over again

    good value too, and could be edited down
     
  18.  
    Chunky Stool

    Chunky Stool Well-Known Member

    I thought you probably meant hp... ;)
    "The best fertilizer experience I ever found in my space is promix bx with organicare dry ferts "
     
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  19.  
    Chunky Stool

    Chunky Stool Well-Known Member

    $26 for 3.8 cu ft bale of promix HP??? That price kicks butt!
    Best price around here is $34, but it's stored outside. :roll:
     
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  20.  
    Roger A. Shrubber

    Roger A. Shrubber Well-Known Member

    they sell it at lowes here for 24.98, but you have to order it in, they don't carry it at the store
     
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