The far red thread

[end_of_the_tunnel]

the study was very interesting to read, because it went in detail explaining some of the errors the scientists of the past had been doing. Some of the information actually confirms my point. I also think that some is maybe not so relevant. For example there were alot of studies cited that had been research on very small growing plants - so the penetration power of the light doesn't play a big role at all. Imagine you have a good penetrating lightsource where a fraction of photons are hitting the topsoil instead.

But if you grow cannabis in large bushes, that are 1.50m tall with strong lamps 1m away - these will saturate the topleaves fully. Once the reaction centers are under constant excitation you'll only add heat if you introduce more light. At that point I'm asking for the addition of green spectrum to not aggravate the top leave situation further and create heat stress, but deliver the photons instead to the middle. It won't be tremendously much but the Far Red should be there to increase its effect via this Em. effect. I'm pretty sure you all have seen these insanely elongated limbless hanging around bottom sidebranches - a plant forms these in response to shade avoidance = it has not enough light. It's a point separated from the spectrum, that also has its own set of photomorphogenic effects in store. Some of the studies were even ignorant of that, ie. 150 umol [!] - if topleaves aren't even fully saturated on small plants there's no point to call for more penetration power in the first place naturally.

So it may be really situationally beneficial to have an extra green option. Look for example at the Sylvania Grolux its spectral sheet looks just like 4 monopumps 380 440 660 730 (just to make an example) - wouldnt the 550 fit right in if you just keep in mind how well balanced the solar spectrum reaches as? maybe not for SOG 12/12fs but if you grow anything like 11l pots....

BTW much kudos for the links provided, I realize I have much too much FR in there. Since I got so many leftover diodes I could maybe use them to make some sidelighting in the veg tent.... and I could replace some FR with Green and put these at the same channel than royal blue / UV.

I like what you are asking regarding replacing FR with green. Is there an elephant in the room that does not seem to get much mention?


I accept the utility of FR.
We can use it to initiate a rapid transition to flower. But I can do that without FR. With FR we can use it to modify growth. There is a lot of talk in this thread about FR for end of day/flower initiation treatment. And so the focus seems to be on soley on R/FR ratios.
What about interaction between B/G ratios and R/Fr ratios?
What effect can the Blue / Green ratio have on Pr/Pfr?

 

[end_of_the_tunnel]

i think the study proof your view on green light and its penetration capabilities, also the relation to the shade avoidance syndrom.
to be fair i think the study mention that green could have a bigger effect with denser canopys, also it looks many studies where also made under a high ppfd level.
you may digged deeper in to this then me.

the pratical question is if our white Leds dont have enough green.
the often used 3000k and else have quite some of it.
the from some prefered 2700K , high CRI have even less green (pls some correct me if i am wrong).
I couldnt find the spectral sheet of the Grolux on the quick, but am confused there, always thought HPS have a lot green in it.
like

Grow Light - Sonlight HPS 400W - Bloom

Sonlight Agro 400W is a High Pressure Sodium Grow Lamp Designed For Blooming Stages. This Bulb Mimics the Sunlight For Your Hydroponic or Soil Cultivations.

www.hydroponics.eu

would say green is there in good qtys in most HPS and LED grows but if you say the Grolux miss it, then it will be missing.

if you have enough to doubble the leds, doubble them up, to each led in series one in parallel.
better spread.
its for sure temptimg to make a mix of color leds, but have to say its much easier to see the effects if you can sperate them.
even with seperate color channels its often hard.
royal blue and uv on one channels sounds btw very good to me.

Many remark on warm kelvin, high CRI. But what is the point of emulating the characteristics of HPS by trying with led combinations. Do we really want that growth characteristic? What about trying to get the best of both worlds? Are we growing for bulk and mass? Visual appeal. Or are we aiming for optimum cannabinoid production.

All these board and strip manufactuers feed the trend, and focus shifts away from B/G. Red/Far red is king, and plants and pocket suffer for it. Why not take a closer look at cmh, and shift away from trying to turn led into hps.

 

[Kassiopeija]

I couldnt find the spectral sheet of the Grolux on the quick, but am confused there, always thought HPS have a lot green in it.

I mean this:

Sylvania Gro-Lux LED LINEAR - LED Lampe 396 Watt

Sylvania Gro-Lux LED LINEAR - LED Lampe 396 Watt ★ Auf Lager, für nur 1.400,00 € kaufen ★ Jetzt bei GrowAndStyle bestellen!

growandstyle.de

no UV in the spectral but they do protect the diodes with glass... all light coming from this will be absorbed very fast - except FR - but what can it do alone to bottom leaves? induce stretch...

yes HPS has alot of yellow & red, bit FR & vm IR. The spectra from different brands bear not much difference in that regard...

the pratical question is if our white Leds dont have enough green.
the often used 3000k and else have quite some of it.
the from some prefered 2700K , high CRI have even less green (pls some correct me if i am wrong).

a high CRI relates to a balanced spectrum output remniscient of sunlight. so blue, gree, red almost equal. CMH lamps excel here.

the human eye is very sensitive to green - just a bit of it to a mixed blue & red light and it will appear white. I use Cree 3500k and they emit green spectrum but have still less green than the sun:

And so the focus seems to be on soley on R/FR ratios.
What about interaction between B/G ratios and R/Fr ratios?
What effect can the Blue / Green ratio have on Pr/Pfr?

as Bugbee explained, photosystem 2 can be activated by any kind of photon of visible light.

Phytochrome A differs from its cousins in that it can absorb photons up to UVB 300nm.

 

[PhatNuggz]

In a few weeks when I'm done trimming Joe.
You read my posts supposedly.
So far i can only vouch for what i use & what i know. You read so you know i share the knowledge as i become aware.
What i know is that companies are just now seeking the Spectrum I've been using for 5 years. In top-bin, high end builds.
And everyone is discussing the benifit of it everytime they discuss this & other gap fillers to the Original McCree Curve (300-780nm+)
Now that They are getting there this company i use is refining that original spectrum from 7 yrs ago.
Components + Build Quality.
Go from there Joe.

Assuming you mean Amare, why are you dancing around naming it?

 

[hybridway2]

Assuming you mean Amare, why are you dancing around naming it?

Why bother. Its a Far Red Thread. No need to mention names. RocketSoul pointed out the one main company i would like to credit but have never used & always seam to forget the name. That company has shared test results from their studies. They offer at least x6 tailored spectrums as well as interweb Geographic location live spectrums to closest match existing spectrums around the world.
Responding to the type of questions or insinuations Joe tosses around gets people upset & apparently threads shut down. They are also not true & depicted mostly through the eyes of those looking to start trouble.
I study spectrums in my garden.
Any Company that offers up lights for Testing or ShowCasing know they are only going to get honest reviews & comparisons through my eyes, photos & weigh ins. These comments are then hopefully used to provide insight to the manufacturer as to what can help in future builds. I offer these suggestions w/o prejudice or Brand Loyalty in mind. Only growers bennifit.
I have offered "Game Changing" info to HLG, Aussie High-Lights & Amare. What they or other companies do with it is on them.
Far Red is an essential part of any growing spectrum aside from germination.
You guys here Should start a thread on the "Cyan Gap". Another long studied & proven beneficial photoreceptor missing in white LEDs manufacturer for the human eye.

 

[OneHitDone]

Many remark on warm kelvin, high CRI. But what is the point of emulating the characteristics of HPS by trying with led combinations. Do we really want that growth characteristic? What about trying to get the best of both worlds? Are we growing for bulk and mass? Visual appeal. Or are we aiming for optimum cannabinoid production.

All these board and strip manufactuers feed the trend, and focus shifts away from B/G. Red/Far red is king, and plants and pocket suffer for it. Why not take a closer look at cmh, and shift away from trying to turn led into hps.

View attachment 4565149

Led is FAR from being matched to HPS with the trend of a 660, no Far Red and still too much Blue in most cases.
I am all about sunshine but have you seen the difference in structure growing the same cut in outdoor / greenhouse vs under HPS?
Ever wonder why that indoor norcal flower has such little leaf and was dense as rocks?

 

[FADING-SILHOUETTE]

Mines nearly done ... 1 more week perhaps...just waiting on a few more milky Trichs... - STELTHY

 

[cobshopgrow]

I mean this:

Sylvania Gro-Lux LED LINEAR - LED Lampe 396 Watt

Sylvania Gro-Lux LED LINEAR - LED Lampe 396 Watt ★ Auf Lager, für nur 1.400,00 € kaufen ★ Jetzt bei GrowAndStyle bestellen!

growandstyle.de

View attachment 4565148
no UV in the spectral but they do protect the diodes with glass... all light coming from this will be absorbed very fast - except FR - but what can it do alone to bottom leaves? induce stretch...

yes HPS has alot of yellow & red, bit FR & vm IR. The spectra from different brands bear not much difference in that regard...


a high CRI relates to a balanced spectrum output remniscient of sunlight. so blue, gree, red almost equal. CMH lamps excel here.

the human eye is very sensitive to green - just a bit of it to a mixed blue & red light and it will appear white. I use Cree 3500k and they emit green spectrum but have still less green than the sun:
View attachment 4565147


as Bugbee explained, photosystem 2 can be activated by any kind of photon of visible light.

Phytochrome A differs from its cousins in that it can absorb photons up to UVB 300nm.

got you, i read Sylvania and thought its a gas discharge lamp type not a blurple led.
your given blurple example could probably need more green, youre right.
i just wanted to point out that most spectre we use or used nowadays, exept some outdated blurple have lots of green.
HPS, CMH, white leds, CRI70 more green then CRI80 and 90.

looks to me they dont use any led who emits UVA anyway in that fixture, so the glas have nothing to filter.
at least down to 380nm penetrates quite well through windows to what i can meausre myself, the lower the nm the more it will filter but a good portion UVA passes the window.

CRI is tricky, for a high CRI value not all wavelenghts have to be equal.
it doesnt "relates to a balanced spectrum" (otherwise there wont be a 2700K led with a CRI of 90 and above possible).
ad a ton of 660nm to 3000k 80cri and you have a very high CRI, from 84 to 97 np,(RA value in my case, similar/same unit to CRI).

btw in my region i have never got any outdoor growen stuff which wasnt leafy and kind of larfy compared to what is growen indoor.
plants veg very healthy but the sun here dont make nice flowers, likely a intensity problem mostly.

 

[JOE GROWS]

Why bother. Its a Far Red Thread. No need to mention names. RocketSoul pointed out the one main company i would like to credit but have never used & always seam to forget the name. That company has shared test results from their studies. They offer at least x6 tailored spectrums as well as interweb Geographic location live spectrums to closest match existing spectrums around the world.
Responding to the type of questions or insinuations Joe tosses around gets people upset & apparently threads shut down. They are also not true & depicted mostly through the eyes of those looking to start trouble.
I study spectrums in my garden.
Any Company that offers up lights for Testing or ShowCasing know they are only going to get honest reviews & comparisons through my eyes, photos & weigh ins. These comments are then hopefully used to provide insight to the manufacturer as to what can help in future builds. I offer these suggestions w/o prejudice or Brand Loyalty in mind. Only growers bennifit.
I have offered "Game Changing" info to HLG, Aussie High-Lights & Amare. What they or other companies do with it is on them.
Far Red is an essential part of any growing spectrum aside from germination.
You guys here Should start a thread on the "Cyan Gap". Another long studied & proven beneficial photoreceptor missing in white LEDs manufacturer for the human eye.

not trying to get anything shut down just want to understand why you say amare is better because it has far red and white lights are bad

found this on another thread and it say that 6.8% of the light is far red what percentage is amare? does it need to be 20% far red to work? You told me the white leds are not good so im tryin to work out how much far red i need to grow like you

 

[hybridway2]

not trying to get anything shut down just want to understand why you say amare is better because it has far red and white lights are bad
View attachment 4565718
found this on another thread and it say that 6.8% of the light is far red what percentage is amare? does it need to be 20% far red to work? You told me the white leds are not good so im tryin to work out how much far red i need to grow like you

Who is better then what?
Hi Teknik! Missed you man. Blow up my PM me like the old days n we'll talk.
Those are the improvements on white diodes upcoming that i have been talking about for years. Nice Job Teknik!!! Soon you'll have that 380-450 covered too. Keep up the good work & Nice Job filling the "Cyan Gap" too.
If we both agree on so much why are you always bustin my balls?

 

[cobshopgrow]

Many remark on warm kelvin, high CRI. But what is the point of emulating the characteristics of HPS by trying with led combinations. Do we really want that growth characteristic? What about trying to get the best of both worlds? Are we growing for bulk and mass? Visual appeal. Or are we aiming for optimum cannabinoid production.

All these board and strip manufactuers feed the trend, and focus shifts away from B/G. Red/Far red is king, and plants and pocket suffer for it. Why not take a closer look at cmh, and shift away from trying to turn led into hps.

View attachment 4565149

as you know i am not especially a fan of HPS nor trying to emulate that spectrum.
its just a good reference as so much weed is growen under it for decades.
even normal white LEDs have a nicer spectrum on paper then HPS to my view, while can lack the heat.
i like the wide blue part of the CMH and try to simulate it a bit buy giving UVA wavelenghts.

emulating the sun is probably a safe bet to get healthy quick growing plants.
its probably just not the most energy efficient way and we may loose benefits we can have, like less leaves more bud or else.

for my part i am after a good yield, with good quality for a low power consumption.
(to stay a bit under the radar, also energy cost a fortune where i am)

in the end we have to use in our lights what the industry is offering us and the new 660nm red mono leds, while beeing expenisve are simply quite impressive.
their light is well absorbed, turned in to energy (at least where it directly hit the buds) and theyre elctricaly efficient, newest osram bin have 4+ ppfd a watt or such.
red isnt all for sure, time will tell us more n more which spectrum is ideal.
for green i would probably choose allday some white leds over mono greens.
looks like most efficient greens are almost 200lpw, like phosphor coated whites, but the whites have much more photosyntetic radiation beside the green monos
which isnt covered by the lumen definition which relys moslty on green.
of course the whites have the price benefit at the moment, so theyre heavily used.
well, just saying, led light spectra of the manufactorers look similar cause it simply base on whats on the market.
manufactorers always need to push something new to sell the next gen, this wont stop for a while i think.

 

[JOE GROWS]

Who is better then what?
Hi Teknik! Missed you man. Blow up my PM me like the old days n we'll talk.
Those are the improvements on white diodes upcoming that i have been talking about for years. Nice Job Teknik!!! Soon you'll have that 380-450 covered too. Keep up the good work & Nice Job filling the "Cyan Gap" too.
If we both agree on so much why are you always bustin my balls?

Totally lost by your answer. Can you tell me the percentage of far red that is in your amare light

 

[hybridway2]

Totally lost by your answer. Can you tell me the percentage of far red that is in your amare light

Id rather not.
You'r example of a white led posted is not your typical white led or even one manufactured yet i doubt. So it does not fit the description of what the term refers to.
Anymore free publicizing of your new tech from a guy you don't associate with any more? Or we good now?

 

[cobshopgrow]

hey man ,thats what rocket soul posted and are the Bridgelux Eb3 2700k 90cri strips, theyre manufactored.
6.7% far red is quite some.
would love to see a comparsion to Eb3 3000 80cri when seeing this tbh.

 

[Rocket Soul]

hey man ,thats what rocket soul posted and are the Bridgelux Eb3 2700k 90cri strips, theyre manufactored.
6.7% far red is quite some.
would love to see a comparsion to Eb3 3000 80cri when seeing this tbh.

Id assume something like a 3-5% increase in photons for more efficient phosphor. More if you cut off at 700nm.
Edit: as in if you measured par narrowly (400-700) there would be more of an increase from 90 to 80 but in this case i think all the way to 780 is covered.

 

[Kassiopeija]

your given blurple example could probably need more green, youre right.
i just wanted to point out that most spectre we use or used nowadays, exept some outdated blurple have lots of green.

this is the first time I read someone refer to a 1400€ lamp as "blurple". I thought that was derogatory for this blue/red-China crap from 10 years ago. So whenever a rack holds a mono diodes it makes the light a blurple, or how is the definition here around?

I don't know if it's enough. In outdoor plants you typically don't have that "bottom-yellow-leaf-syndrom" but if you have, then the soil is not rich enough. But indoors it can be from light depravation. I wonder how much percentage loss of the 550nm wave is lost if it flies through one healthy leaf? In order to assess how much lux the second leaf gets from the green.

looks to me they dont use any led who emits UVA anyway in that fixture, so the glas have nothing to filter.

but it states so in the description in german but maybe someone spiced things a bit up here

CRI is tricky, for a high CRI value not all wavelenghts have to be equal.
it doesnt "relates to a balanced spectrum" (otherwise there wont be a 2700K led with a CRI of 90 and above possible).
ad a ton of 660nm to 3000k 80cri and you have a very high CRI, from 84 to 97 np,(RA value in my case, similar/same unit to CRI).

well, the way I understand is its index is related to "colortruth-fullness" that objects have in daytime sunlight. Since the addition of lightcolors or their strength changes the outcome of the lightbeam, and thus, the color-rendering of the object, you can have different spectra resulting in the same CRI.
Yes, the green in the white diodes is already enough to make the light white - but is it already enough to give a sugarleaf that is completely hidden by a fanleaf the necessary photonic input to process much sugar into that budsite?
And green starts at 500nm and that has nearly the same absorption rate than most light. But yes, you're right the diodes for the 550nm are not a good choice.
Seems like there are also many hardware or production-related reasons, mostly about efficiency, which decide what comes into a rack.

 

[cobshopgrow]

haha, i think there is no dictionary definiton for blurple, so everyone is free to use the term how he wants would say.
for me a light mainly composed of red n blue is a blurple.
the light you linked is a modern blurple, it uses relative recent osram diodes, so its not really the typical scam amazon blurple.
they really say it contains UV, just cant see it their provided spectrum, i mean thats not much below 400 there, maybe they promise a bit too much, idk.

best definition of CRI i found here
" it is a misconception that a light source with a high CRI will produce light similar to a bright sunny day, making your home look like the sun is beaming inside. This is incorrect.
CRI measures how accurately a light source compares to a similar light source of the same color temperature."

What Is Color Rendering?

Color rendering index is a term used to measure a light source's ability to accurately display colors in their truest & most realistic form.

www.accessfixtures.com

its not the most usefull unit for us maybe, but we can link it to given spectre in led datasheets and therefore its telling us something.

i dont know how much green light you need to make a leaf behind another to grow healthy, nor can tell how a bud will look which is saturated by only green light.
would be cool if someone test it.
what i could see with the sensor is that there isnt much light anymore if its passed just one top leaf, even the green portion, its so little, i think it makes more sense to apply the light where its needed.
sidelight, underlight etc.
the sun may have the benefit of the diferent angles and its sheer penetration power here.

 

[Humple]

Id rather not.
You'r example of a white led posted is not your typical white led or even one manufactured yet i doubt. So it does not fit the description of what the term refers to.
Anymore free publicizing of your new tech from a guy you don't associate with any more? Or we good now?

The example he posted is a Bridgelux EB Gen 3 2700k 90 CRI 560mm strip. It's certainly being manufactured.

I think the underlying point being made here is that what you call deficient "white" light isn't just white.

 

[hybridway2]

The example he posted is a Bridgelux EB Gen 3 2700k 90 CRI 560mm strip. It's certainly being manufactured.

I think the underlying point being made here is that what you call deficient "white" light isn't just white.

Idk about what he linked. Ill go back n look . How does that pertain to the convo? Guess ill have a better idea when i go back n look someday.
What do you mean? You n i, n all know what i AM referring too. General white leds made for the use of the human eye. Are Very Deficient in several Bandwidths.
Are there several other even more deficient light spectrums being offered for yrs & still are?? Why Yes, Most Certainly.
My beef is white leds manufacturers, DIY'rs & followers all saying there white is good to go, all the while, hundreds of videos & threads pop up everywhere showing Exactly why they are deficient.
Its just that many peoples minds work similiar to that of my Ex-Wife's. Focusing 100% on only the good videos & reviews (mostly by those whom have not used hps or enhanced white led to offer any true insight, rather just another: "Oh, look how Happy i am under my Nextlight Mega" ect...
Tells growers nothing except they can increase their GPW, density, and maintain much shorter bushes. (Due to lack of IR) Over Traditional HPS.
If you guys wanna be stuck there, by all means, do your damn thing.

 

[Humple]

Idk about what he linked. Ill go back n look . How does that pertain to the convo? Guess ill have a better idea when i go back n look someday.
What do you mean? You n i, n all know what i AM referring too. General white leds made for the use of the human eye. Are Very Deficient in several Bandwidths.
Are there several other even more deficient light spectrums being offered for yrs & still are?? Why Yes, Most Certainly.
My beef is white leds manufacturers, DIY'rs & followers all saying there white is good to go, all the while, hundreds of videos & threads pop up everywhere showing Exactly why they are deficient.
Its just that many peoples minds work similiar to that of my Ex-Wife's. Focusing 100% on only the good videos & reviews (mostly by those whom have not used hps or enhanced white led to offer any true insight, rather just another: "Oh, look how Happy i am under my Nextlight Mega" ect...
Tells growers nothing except they can increase their GPW, density, and maintain much shorter bushes. (Due to lack of IR) Over Traditional HPS.
If you guys wanna be stuck there, by all means, do your damn thing.

It pertains to the convo because the convo is about far red. That EB strip has 6.8% far red. So how much far red is optimum? What percentage of the whole should be made up by far red?