War

[printer]

The key factor is medical treatment and that makes the difference between wounded and dead, the Russian medical treatment sucks and I've seen astonishing mortality rates, most are left on the battlefield to die. Ukraine on the other hand ships severely wounded to western Europe and has excellent battlefield medical aid and lots of reports of medics being killed. So for every 100K Russian casualties 80% die and say 40% or less of Ukrainians. It is the lack of medical care starting with unit cohesion and caring about the other guy enough to help him and having a first aid kit and training to do it that makes the difference between the dead and wounded casualties, Russians are dying from relatively minor wounds by western standards.

Aside from that, there are the multitude of other military factors that lead me to believe the Russian numbers of dead are much higher than the Ukrainians. I think the kill ratio is far in excess of 3:1 in favor of the Ukrainians.

So nothing to refute my links?

 

[BudmanTX]

The losses are killed and wounded, not the number killed.

Fact Check: Have Over 150K Ukraine Troops Been Killed in Russia Conflict?
In January 2023 Norwegian Chief of Defense Eirik Kristoffersen, speaking to Norwegian network TV2, claimed that as many as 100,000 Ukrainian soldiers had died or were wounded. He put Russian military casualties at 180,000.

A similar figure for Ukrainian troop casualties—comprising both dead and injured—was quoted by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Milley, a report by The Washington Post reported. Milley said Russian casualties were also likely over 100,000.

Fact Check: Have over 150K Ukraine Troops been killed in Russia conflict?

Elon Musk responded to a tweet quoting huge Ukrainian losses based on figures from a Turkish site

www.newsweek.com

Jan 21.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1616774023693598727

Soaring death toll gives grim insight into Russian tactics
WASHINGTON – The number of Russian troops killed and wounded in Ukraine is approaching 200,000, a stark symbol of how badly Russian President Vladimir Putin’s invasion has gone, according to U.S. and other Western officials.

Soaring death toll gives grim insight into Russian tactics

The slaughter from fighting in and around the eastern Ukrainian city of Bakhmut and the town of Soledar has ballooned what was already a heavy toll.

www.japantimes.co.jp

Thanks printer appreciate the articles.....

Tbh we will never know the totals

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

So nothing to refute my links?

I'm not refuting them, just adding context. I posted a story earlier in the thread about the extremely high mortality rates of Russian casualties, due to poor care, if they get care at all. There have been plenty of stories of Russian dead stacked up on the battlefield and of wounded left to die. We won't know the true numbers until the war is over and then the Russians will try to hide the scale of their loses, that will be harder to do for the Ukrainians and they will have no reason to.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

So nothing to refute my links?

This was before the mobiks showed up in Ukraine and was mostly for the better equipped troops, back in October. Since then, they must be overwhelmed by the increased numbers.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1581158395310374913

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1623622692422266880

 

[printer]

I'm not refuting them, just adding context. I posted a story earlier in the thread about the extremely high mortality rates of Russian casualties, due to poor care, if they get care at all. There have been plenty of stories of Russian dead stacked up on the battlefield and of wounded left to die. We won't know the true numbers until the war is over and then the Russians will try to hide the scale of their loses, that will be harder to do for the Ukrainians and they will have no reason to.

Just seemed you made up numbers to suit you.

This was before the mobiks showed up in Ukraine and was mostly for the better equipped troops, back in October. Since then, they must be overwhelmed by the increased numbers.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1581158395310374913

Which does not tell us what seriously injured is.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Just seemed you made up numbers to suit you.



Which does not tell us what seriously injured is.

They lose 50% of those that make it to treatment, many do not and are left on the field wounded to die. From the reporting on this thread, it is reasonable to assume the Russians are getting hammered in this war, they lost their entire original invading army and there is a reason 97% of the Russian army is in Ukraine, according to the UK MoD.

Once a Ukrainian is seriously wounded it is a million-dollar wound and they are out of the fight for good, unless they want back in and are recovered. As I said, the Ukrainians have all of western Europe to off load the wounded to if required and they have been getting plenty of medical help. We saw videos of the Russian medical issues earlier in the war, with tampons used to plug bullet wounds and no first aid kits. More importantly the Russians are rushing untrained troops to the front with no first aid training or unit cohesion, they are a bunch of strangers to each other, and nobody cares for their fellows or has the training or means to do so, they are no band of brothers. Soldiers fight for their buddies, not just for their country and that is one of many problems the Russian army has.

 

[doublejj]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1625957822906204165

 

[CCGNZ]

I'll blame the Russian people when a young man is arrested for protesting, given a fine and released. When protesting means years in jail under medieval conditions, your sister gets raped and your parents and children menaced if not beaten and loss of jobs for all, I'm willing to give the suppressed population a pass. Putin has already fed the eager ones into the meatgrinder and used them up. Now it's the reluctant. And he isn't even trying to keep them alive. I'm not all weepy and wanting to give hugs to the people who allowed Putin into power. They knew who he was. But I'm not blaming them for Putin's bad choices.

It sucks for everybody right now. Ukraine is on the right side of this war but I'm leery of them too. When this is all over, we are going to see a glut of arms on the black market marked "made in the USA", some of which China will pay for and send to the Taliban (given as a possible example). Or maybe to Columbian rebels, IDK, all I know is war makes everybody into monsters by the end.

A failed Russia means more instability. I'm not for it but also not against it. I just hope that after Putin goes and the state of Russia breaks up, the US provides aid like we did in Europe after WW2. Aid for both sides if they want it and it keeps the peace.

Good stuff,pretty much my feelings,a total quagmire post hostilities,like I said earlier Yugoslavia X 1000,# of issues intimidating and that's IF this war ends as presently configured. I believe the initial fears of escalation have been dismissed somewhat as we approach the one year mark but we'd be foolish to think this thing couldn't still spiral out of control w/ the right circumstances and actually reach out and touch us. I'm also w/you on Ukraine while they are the victim of a unprovoked invasion there are legit reasons to be leery of corruption and some hard line kooks from remnants of the Soviet days.

 

[CCGNZ]

They lose 50% of those that make it to treatment, many do not and are left on the field wounded to die. From the reporting on this thread, it is reasonable to assume the Russians are getting hammered in this war, they lost their entire original invading army and there is a reason 97% of the Russian army is in Ukraine, according to the UK MoD.

Once a Ukrainian is seriously wounded it is a million-dollar wound and they are out of the fight for good, unless they want back in and are recovered. As I said, the Ukrainians have all of western Europe to off load the wounded to if required and they have been getting plenty of medical help. We saw videos of the Russian medical issues earlier in the war, with tampons used to plug bullet wounds and no first aid kits. More importantly the Russians are rushing untrained troops to the front with no first aid training or unit cohesion, they are a bunch of strangers to each other, and nobody cares for their fellows or has the training or means to do so, they are no band of brothers. Soldiers fight for their buddies, not just for their country and that is one of many problems the Russian army has.

Just imagine being a 35 yo Russian male w/ a job,wife,kid getting picked up and thrown into a muddy shithole w/shitty equipment,maybe 8 wks. of training,and surrounded by total strangers in a pretty much every man for himself scenario,DAMN. You know some articulate Russian put in that position who survives this is going to write a book about the horrors.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

when the war is over, NATO should repossess a lot of the gear that Ukraine has now, to prevent it disappearing and then reappearing in terrorist hands.
While i admire the hell out of Ukrainians, and wish them quick victory over the russians, they do not have the best corruption record, pre russian invasion.
Don't give them mountains of rifles and ammunition, give them what they need. Keep track of every system sent, of every system destroyed, and make that shit add up at the end of the war. Right now, they have overflowing stockpiles of some gear, when the war ends, they should be left with what they need to defend themselves realistically, and the rest should be returned to the donors, or at least decommissioned and used for scrap.
Ukraine wants to be EU members and NATO members? returning everything they no longer have a need for asap would go a long way towards convincing the rest of the EU and NATO that they're ready.

 

[cannabineer]

Just imagine being a 35 yo Russian male w/ a job,wife,kid getting picked up and thrown into a muddy shithole w/shitty equipment,maybe 8 wks. of training,and surrounded by total strangers in a pretty much every man for himself scenario,DAMN. You know some articulate Russian put in that position who survives this is going to write a book about the horrors.

It will be our generation’s Mobik Dyick

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

It will be our generation’s Mobik Dyick

except that i find it a lot easier to feel sympathy for a 70 foot 50 ton whale than i do for the average russian.

 

[cannabineer]

except that i find it a lot easier to feel sympathy for a 70 foot 50 ton whale than i do for the average russian.

I know, but I’m not sure why. I am always surprised when I see someone opine that the Russian voters brought this upon themselves. It betrays a crashing deafness to the way things actually are. They never got an even break.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

I know, but I’m not sure why. I am always surprised when I see someone opine that the Russian voters brought this upon themselves. It betrays a crashing deafness to the way things actually are. They never got an even break.

i think maybe it has something to do with our perception of ourselves, that we think we wouldn't do the same thing they have done in the same situation, that somehow we would be more willing to stand up for ourselves, to demand that the government quit murdering neighbors in the name of imperialism.
i suppose most of that is wishful thinking, but it still doesn't keep me from holding them in contempt for allowing themselves to be made into cogs in a machine designed to make putin and his oligarchs even more obscenely rich than they already were.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

when the war is over, NATO should repossess a lot of the gear that Ukraine has now, to prevent it disappearing and then reappearing in terrorist hands.
While i admire the hell out of Ukrainians, and wish them quick victory over the russians, they do not have the best corruption record, pre russian invasion.
Don't give them mountains of rifles and ammunition, give them what they need. Keep track of every system sent, of every system destroyed, and make that shit add up at the end of the war. Right now, they have overflowing stockpiles of some gear, when the war ends, they should be left with what they need to defend themselves realistically, and the rest should be returned to the donors, or at least decommissioned and used for scrap.
Ukraine wants to be EU members and NATO members? returning everything they no longer have a need for asap would go a long way towards convincing the rest of the EU and NATO that they're ready.

They have lots of small arms, but are controlling who gets them, even in the dark days of the war, the EU doesn't want loose arms in Europe. They and the allies probably have a plan to collect up all the arms not given to the army or territorials, and they will be locked in armories. They have liberal gun laws, similar to America and civilians were buying guns early in the invasion, even though the government had millions of AKs from allies and on hand themselves.

I don't think Ukraine is as corrupt as it once was and what was there, the Russians and their local oligarchs were behind a lot of it. Zelenskiy and his party are anticorruption and have been using the war to clean it up. Also, the social effects of the war is helping to clean it up, corruption in a war of survival is seen as treason by most and the attitude sticks around for a while.

 

[cannabineer]

i think maybe it has something to do with our perception of ourselves, that we think we wouldn't do the same thing they have done in the same situation, that somehow we would be more willing to stand up for ourselves, to demand that the government quit murdering neighbors in the name of imperialism.
i suppose most of that is wishful thinking, but it still doesn't keep me from holding them in contempt for allowing themselves to be made into cogs in a machine designed to make putin and his oligarchs even more obscenely rich than they already were.

It’s the “allowing themselves to be made” bit against which I am pushing back. It implies that they were given a choice. I doubt they ever had one, even thirty years ago when crap went to shit.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

It’s the “allowing themselves to be made” bit against which I am pushing back. It implies that they were given a choice. I doubt they ever had one, even thirty years ago when crap went to shit.

They went from feudal, to modernity in a generation or two, from peasants to citizens with not much in between the two but turmoil. From one aristocratic extremism to a communist one, Lennin's version of it, then Stalin's nightmare of "progress". Stalin psychologically wounded Russia for generations, just look what Trump, with a fraction of the power, did to America in just 4 years. Stalin had total power from the 20's until he croaked in 1953, leaving an expanded empire, mighty red army and social wreckage.

 

[cannabineer]

They went from feudal, to modernity in a generation or two, from peasants to citizens with not much in between the two but turmoil. From one aristocratic extremism to a communist one, Lennin's version of it, then Stalin's nightmare of "progress". Stalin psychologically wounded Russia for generations, just look what Trump with a fraction of the power did to America in just 4 years. Stalin had total power from the 20's until he croaked in 1953, leaving an expanded empire, mighty red army and social wreckage.

What I’m suggesting is that the perceived window of democracy in the 90s never existed. The oligarchs were strong in the last years of the Soviet era, and they held off the change until the fix was in.

All the rest was perception management, and I suspect some of us in the West, who have lived all our lives with a tradition and expectation that voting matters, fell for the sales job.

The ascension of Putin or an indistinguishable copy was business as usual in Russia.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

It’s the “allowing themselves to be made” bit against which I am pushing back. It implies that they were given a choice. I doubt they ever had one, even thirty years ago when crap went to shit.

Now that I think about it, Russia has been operating like the Roman empire for a long time and at about the same social level politically. Czar is derived from Ceasar after all and all Russian leaders, except for maybe Yeltsin, were like Roman emperors with similar powers of life and death. Stalin expanded the empire and Gorbachev ended it by trying to modernize and westernize the country, but with liberalization came dissolution. The legacy and ghost of Stalin made a liberal democratic USSR impossible. It is doing the same for the remaining Russian empire and liberalization would mean further dissolution for it, with European Russia left as a rump.