cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
You have both hands on my primary objection. cn
More on the evils of capitalism.
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You have both hands on my primary objection. cn
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
Kropotkin formed his anarchistic views on his studies of evolutionary biology and zoology. That is where I source mutual aid. I do agree with the second paragraph and particularly the conclusion. However, I will admit more. I believe that selfishness and hierarchy are taught behavior in exactly the same way that mutual aid is. In fact I believe that the vast majority of ALL behavior is taught.
I also believe that authority can be valid. Authority is never derived by titles of rulership, that is only subjugation.
We may choose to compete or cooperate.
Doer
Well-Known Member
It is simple, in that the fittest are not pronounced, as such. They simply are the fittest, by the measure.
It is selfish that is a meaningless term. Self interest is all there is. And even those that preach a level socialism, know it can never be, so they are only practicing their own self interest from the soap box. Unless of course, they actually believe it. In that case, one is ripe to be taken advantage of by the countless cold hearted fakers of social theory.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I see that. But I don't see you proposing a fix that doesn't rely on ignoring the Prisoner's Dilemma, the inconvenient fact that selective defectors, empire builders, are the Big Winners. Too many of us go for that gold, and it destabilizes the cooperative side of the matrix. That was every socialist's and libertarian's core mistake, and why so many such philosophies invoke a fanciful phase transition in human nature: "set things right, and people will then naturally play nice". I don't buy that. cn
ginwilly
Well-Known Member
It really is a fascinating debate that I wish we could coerce AC into having. Unfortunately we've derailed the subject too many times with Symantec and label arguments.
As you stated earlier there are observations that many of us make living in society over time from our own personal experiences. Each of us has been lied to, cheated, used for others personal gain and abused by our own kind at some point so we should be painfully aware of what humans are capable of.
My personal observation about people that I feel carries weight simply by 20 years of working the physical rehab field is this; The more you do for people the less they do for themselves. Seeking instant gratification is our nature, the ability to sacrifice this instant gratification for long term gain is not inherent and has to be taught.
AC, these are just personal observations and not based on another person's philosophy. I'd rather discuss personal philosophy on this subject than which label it fits into if you'd care to jump in.
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
Anarchy. That is my answer, no kings, no masters, no gods. Cooperation is needed, not command. It is literally all I ever talk about.
In another thread, you accepted my general philosophy and you did it as a premise in a flippant retort to me. I don't feel like you're debating up to your usual excellence.
@cannabineer
In another thread, you accepted my general philosophy and you did it as a premise in a flippant retort to me. I don't feel like you're debating up to your usual excellence.
@cannabineer
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I have not been alone in trying to get it through to you, sometimes gently, sometimes not:
Anarchy does not work.
I could be offended that you're ignoring that simple truth, but I choose to keep it light and respectful, to hope that we can get past the childlike insistence on a playground solution.
Anarchy is founded on a refutation of the core problem codified by the Prisoner's Dilemma matrix. it has no provision for controlling the predators and the opportunists.
Until you wake from your slumber of wishful thinking, we can't debate this any further with hope of progress.
And by putting your feelings into this to be hurt, you've denied me the ability to discuss this with hope of continued civility.
I leave you with a thought:
did Gandhi ever pout and say No Fair?
cn
Anarchy does not work.
I could be offended that you're ignoring that simple truth, but I choose to keep it light and respectful, to hope that we can get past the childlike insistence on a playground solution.
Anarchy is founded on a refutation of the core problem codified by the Prisoner's Dilemma matrix. it has no provision for controlling the predators and the opportunists.
Until you wake from your slumber of wishful thinking, we can't debate this any further with hope of progress.
And by putting your feelings into this to be hurt, you've denied me the ability to discuss this with hope of continued civility.
I leave you with a thought:
did Gandhi ever pout and say No Fair?
cn
ginwilly
Well-Known Member
This we understand. It really is literally all you ever talk about
What we haven't seen out of you is the how. How do we over come what "we" feel exists in human nature. How do we prevent the huge rewards poor behavior receives without using force?
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
So you sit on a tall mount of correctness, in confidence that you have solved the whole thing. All of anarchism is a fallacy. You pity me for my foolishness in being an anarchist.
Oh thank you wise guru.
Your opinions on human nature are with out premise. Your confidence is based only on what you think of me personally versus what you esteem yourself. You wish that I could have the serenity to accept my utter wrongness.
You seem really sure of yourself.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
No. I sit on a tall mount of "Convince me". You haven't stepped up. You've been mired in slogans thus far. A slogan is like a seed, and you can't mill a 2x4 from acorns. cn
ginwilly
Well-Known Member
damn, there goes the neighborhood.
Back on track AC, we are almost having a real debate here, let's not muddy it up. What basis of thought leads you to believe man won't act in his own best interest when left to act without outside force?
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
This we understand. It really is literally all you ever talk about
What we haven't seen out of you is the how. How do we over come what "we" feel exists in human nature. How do we prevent the huge rewards poor behavior receives without using force?
I get the impression this is more of a dare.
You know, I could talk more about real revolutionary shit, but the truth is, we all know what it is going to look like. I have said before, I would rather avoid revolution in our society.
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~JFK
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
I don't want to lead a revolution.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I'm not asking that.
I'm asking much less.
Please don't overstate the task as a way of dodging it. cn
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
Oh right, I only hate capitalism because I'm a grumpycat.
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
Yes, you are basically saying do it or stfu about it.
ginwilly
Well-Known Member
Selfishness does not equal capitalism. Selfishness has been inherent in any ism throughout history. Somalian pirates operate in their own self interest.
It's a non answer.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
You're overstating, perhaps as an excuse to disengage.
I am not asking you to do or stfu.
i am asking "how, keeping the realities of Prisoner's Dilemma in the forefront of our attention?"
And I am of course not demanding that you present a complete and bulletproof blueprint ... just oh pretty please don't obstruct its formulation!
Talking about it is much less strenuous than doing it.
So let's both acknowledge that opportunists are a basic problem with all anarchist proposals, unless you're willing to see how to adapt an anarchist modus to the presence of the thieves and wannabe warlords. cn
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