AG Garland appoints special counsel

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
You seemed to be whining about it. "I am reduced to waiting and watching in unsatisfied ignorance. "

Maybe I'm grumpy this morning or maybe I'm reaching a limit of tolerance for people complaining about how long it is taking for the legal system to work through the process of investigating Trump for his many crimes.

Your complaint that the DOJ "should" have searched all of Trump's properties by now smacks of a similar uninformed impatience. Correct me if I'm wrong. I do not believe that a blanket search of all of Trump's properties would have been approved by a judge. I do not believe spending resources trying to obtain such a search warrant is worthwhile at this time. I do not believe it is necessary to find all of the stolen documents to convict Trump of crimes he committed in this case. I believe the highest priority is to complete the investigation into the crimes and hold Trump accountable for them.

The DOJ collected tens of thousands of pages of US property in the form of classified and other important documents from Mar a Lago. That is enough evidence to at the very least try and convict Trump under the espionage act. There is enough evidence to also pin him with the crime of obstruction. Trump cannot win in a trial, so he's trying to run out the clock on Biden's term in office on the chance that the next administration will put a stop to it. So I support a closed ended investigation and prosecution that is focused on the Mar a Lago documents without scope creep. The letter requiring Trump's lawyers to certify they have returned ALL documents has put them on notice that they are in legal jeopardy for looking the other way regarding the horde of other documents we all know Trump is hiding. To me, it's enough for now that the DOJ has unofficially told Trump's staff that they know Trump is hiding more than what was found in Mar a Lago. Even the DOJ's resources are limited. That Man must be held accountable for his crimes, beginning with the ones we can successfully prosecute and obtain a verdict before the end of 2024.
To the bolded: once the extent of his packratting national-security-sensitive documents to which he has no title became evident, a follow-on warrant to search his remaining venues seems not only reasonable to me, but somewhat urgent.

But I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express, so ymmv.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
People's main problem with Trump and his cronies is that the perception of justice delayed is justice denied, Donald has but one ass to give to the prison system for a very limited amount of time and too many crimes to account for. Most crimes like his take time to lead to indictments and if it was just for J6 Donald could die before indictment. However, the documents case is far different and far simpler to prove, and it only started months into his post presidency. It will do the job of putting Trump away for life with a simple clearcut case that is impossible to wiggle out from under. Donald will go down long before his cronies and minions over J6 and the feds won't need to offer any deals for his ass either since they already have it. They will need to sell out senators, congressmen and each other for time off. Those they were in meetings with at the WH and who furthered the seditious conspiracy with their votes on the floor along with the fake electors.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
That changes the moment he appears before a federal Judge in DC for a plea hearing on his indictment over the documents. That is the equality under the law Judge Garland was speaking of, it will make no difference to the judge what Donald's last job was, there is no provision under the law for ex presidents and that process begins with indictment. The courts cannot treat him any differently than others charged with similar crimes and that goes for sentencing too. Prosecutors have broad discretion as to how, when or even if they proceed with indictments, however once the hammer drops the countdown clock begins, along with equality under the law.
Yes, the law is blind. Especially in the US.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Yes, the law is blind. Especially in the US.
In this case it will be, unfortunately for Donald, almost everybody appeals the verdict and sentence for the kind of crime and time he will get, but such appeals are made from a cell. It's up to the feds when and if he is charged and once indicted, he will enter the criminal justice machine for a very simple case that judges will usually a lot a couple of weeks to looking at the prima facie case, the evidence and possible defenses.

The judge will sentence him based on sentencing guidelines and the precident of others for similar crimes. However, after that it is up to the federal department of prisons where and how he spends his time. So, from the administration to the courts upon indictment, then back to the administration for disposal, if found guilty and then sentenced.

I'm not arguing the American judicial system is perfect and that the rich don't get preferential treatment; Donald's entire life is a testament to that. It's just that this time for this crime, his luck ran out and he has many enemies who want his ass and who will be watching closely. Justice must not just be done it must also be seen to be done.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
To the bolded: once the extent of his packratting national-security-sensitive documents to which he has no title became evident, a follow-on warrant to search his remaining venues seems not only reasonable to me, but somewhat urgent.

But I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express, so ymmv.
Or maybe they were waiting for Trump to do enough illegal shit that they could charge him?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/12/08/trump-contempt-mar-a-lago-records/Screen Shot 2022-12-08 at 5.43.37 PM.png
Prosecutors have urged a federal judge to hold Donald Trump’s office in contempt of court for failing to fully comply with a May subpoena to return all classified documents in his possession, according to people familiar with the matter — a sign of how contentious the private talks have become over whether the former president still holds any secret papers.

In recent days, Justice Department lawyers have asked U.S. District Judge Beryl A. Howell to hold Trump’s office in contempt, according to the people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe sealed court proceedings. But the judge has not yet held a hearing or ruled on the request, they said.

The request came after months of mounting frustration from the Justice Department with Trump’s team — frustration that spiked in June after the former president’s lawyers provided assurances that a diligent search had been conducted for classified documents at his Mar-a-Lago Club and residence. But the FBI amassed evidence suggesting — and later confirmed through a court-authorized search — that many more remained.

One of the key areas of disagreement centers on the Trump legal team’s repeated refusal to designate a custodian of records to sign a document attesting that all classified materials have been returned to the federal government, according to two of these people. The Justice Department has repeatedly sought an unequivocal sworn written assurance from Trump’s team that all such documents have been returned, and Trump’s team has been unwilling to designate a custodian of records to sign such a statement while also giving assurances that they have handed documents back.

The precise wording of the filing could not be determined because it remains under seal. Trump is under investigation for three potential crimes: mishandling classified documents, obstruction and destruction of government records.

Trump spokesman Steven Cheung said the former president’s lawyers “continue to be cooperative and transparent.” He added: “This is a political witch hunt unlike anything like this country has ever seen.”

A Justice Department spokesman declined to comment.

Trump’s team has searched a number of his other properties in recent weeks, in response to the Justice Department concerns and instructions from the judge, and turned over two items with classification markings to the government. Trump’s advisers told the FBI the items were found in a storage facility used by the former president in West Palm Beach, Fla. Other Trump properties searched in recent weeks include his Bedminster golf course in New Jersey and his home and office at Trump Tower in Manhattan. People familiar with those searches by a private firm say no classified documents were found at those locations.

Screen Shot 2022-12-08 at 5.44.54 PM.png

Trump’s side has taken the position that such a request is unreasonable — that no lawyer could sign such a blanket certification in good faith or advise any client to do so, as opposed to attesting that a search of a given location has been completed in good faith. Some of Trump’s lawyers are also wary of making any claim under oath based on Trump’s word alone, two people familiar with the matter said.

The government’s request for a finding of contempt underscores the fundamental distrust that has existed since the spring between the government trying to retrieve sensitive documents and a former president whose responses have proved untrustworthy. That distrust has led to a legal impasse in sealed papers over what constitutes a complete search for classified papers.

When the government first issued a subpoena in May for any documents with classified markings, the official recipient of that subpoena was the office of the former president’s custodian of records — a role Trump’s team ultimately told the government was held by attorney Christina Bobb.

In June, Bobb signed an attestation that a diligent search had been conducted for any such material, but the FBI collected convincing evidence that was not the case. The government received a court-authorized search warrant in August, which turned up 103 more classified documents at Mar-a-Lago that had not been turned over in response to the subpoena.

But after months of back-and-forth, the core question has still not been answered to the Justice Department’s satisfaction: Are there any more classified items still in the former president’s possession? Prosecutors, having been burned before by empty promises, now want unqualified vows from someone in the official role of the custodian of records that there are no more classified skeletons in any of Trump’s closets.

Prosecutors have asked the judge to find Trump’s side in contempt as long as none of his advisers are willing to assume the role of custodian of records responsible for a complete answer to the question, these people said. In recent months, Bobb has publicly said she is not doing legal work related to the documents case but only advising Trump’s PAC on election issues.

If the judge were to agree, the most likely scenario would be a daily fine until the demands of the contempt motion are met.
How large of a fine, or who would be forced to pay it, would be up to the judge.

It is not uncommon for large organizations to designate a records custodian who can take formal legal responsibility for the company or entity’s files. In Trump’s case, the subpoena sent in May was formally directed to his office’s custodian of records. No individual was named in the request.

Prosecutors have said in court filings that after Trump’s lawyers received the May subpoena, they asked for additional time to comply with it before agreeing to meet on June 3 to turn over records. The night before the scheduled meeting, Bobb — a lawyer and former One America News host —was called by Trump adviser Boris Epshteyn and asked to join lawyer Evan Corcoran at the meeting with Justice Department lawyers, according to a person familiar with the account she later gave to the FBI. Bobb had not previously met Corcoran.

At the June 3 meeting, Bobb gave the Justice Department a letter that began by saying she had been designated to serve as the office’s custodian of records, for purposes of the subpoena, according to people familiar with the conversation. The certification, with a redacted name, has been included in court filings. The letter said Bobb had been told a “diligent search” had been conducted of boxes “moved from the White House to Florida,” and that all documents responsive to the subpoena were being turned over.

The person close to Bobb has said she told the FBI she was skeptical of the letter and insisted on adding a disclaimer saying it was based on information provided to her by others.

Last month, Attorney General Merrick Garland appointed a special counsel to take over the investigation into the classified documents, along with an investigation into Trump’s attempts to overturn the 2020 election. In recent weeks, a number of Trump advisers have appeared in front of a grand jury hearing evidence in the classified documents case.

Stephen Ryan, a white-collar criminal defense attorney, said it is usually not difficult to figure out who should serve as the custodian of records for a company. “In the normal course of business, if you’re a real business, you have records and you have custodians of those records that you can call on,” he said. “It’s the person who holds custody of the records as part of their day-to-day activities.”

In this case, however, there is no representative of Trump who has actually maintained control of the records. “The department is in effect asking for something that doesn’t exist,” he said. “This is an extraordinary problem that is factually relatively unique.”

At this point, he said, “no one wants to put their head in the custodian noose.”
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Or maybe they were waiting for Trump to do enough illegal shit that they could charge him?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/12/08/trump-contempt-mar-a-lago-records/View attachment 5235456
If they can't attest that all documents have been returned, what recourse does the DOJ have? Given that two more classified documents were recently found after all this time, the government has to do something to ensure vital US security information does not end up in the wrong hands. Can they put a padlock on all facilities Trump has documents stowed away and keep it locked under guard at Trump's expense until Trump can prove he has cleared the site?

The bastard is playing cat and mouse to stretch out the investigation.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Or maybe they were waiting for Trump to do enough illegal shit that they could charge him?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/12/08/trump-contempt-mar-a-lago-records/View attachment 5235456
I think they had enough ten months ago. There is something going on here below the visible surface, any of a dozen disparate things. I have no knowledge of or feel for this kind of law, so sentiment is a big part of my process in this matter.
Since sentiment is completely unreliable, I need to counter it every time I detect it in my thought/feelings about all the things in play. I have a sense that things are approaching a spectacular precipice …

but I could be 100% wrong. So I vent a bit, then settle down and wait for good moments to post asteroid-inbound gifs before the Great Pumpkin rises out of the pumpkin patch and …
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I think they had enough ten months ago. There is something going on here below the visible surface, any of a dozen disparate things. I have no knowledge of or feel for this kind of law, so sentiment is a big part of my process in this matter.
Since sentiment is completely unreliable, I need to counter it every time I detect it in my thought/feelings about all the things in play. I have a sense that things are approaching a spectacular precipice …

but I could be 100% wrong. So I vent a bit, then settle down and wait for good moments to post asteroid-inbound gifs before the Great Pumpkin rises out of the pumpkin patch and …
You are not alone many lawyers have been screaming for their heads for a while now and I've posted their videos. Your criticism is not too out of line with prevailing professional opinion. However, there were reasons for delay and prosecutors have a lot of discretion and it's basically a matter of opinion at this point and not one of law, and I doubt it will end up as one.
 

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
I think they had enough ten months ago. There is something going on here below the visible surface, any of a dozen disparate things. I have no knowledge of or feel for this kind of law, so sentiment is a big part of my process in this matter.
Since sentiment is completely unreliable, I need to counter it every time I detect it in my thought/feelings about all the things in play. I have a sense that things are approaching a spectacular precipice …

but I could be 100% wrong. So I vent a bit, then settle down and wait for good moments to post asteroid-inbound gifs before the Great Pumpkin rises out of the pumpkin patch and …
There may never have been a more complicated set of circumstances to a legal case(s).

All you can do is trust the system at the moment.

It's all we've got whether it works out correctly or not. That guy has lived a life of loopholes and he's trying to worm through another one(s) while conning 30% of the people who believe his every word. I know it sucks right now but...

 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
No wonder Dems are seen as soft on crime when they let TFG continue to freely commit crimes.
They don't abuse the system to get their enemies, that's a tradition that goes back a long way with the GOP and has its roots in the south where the law was abused to get those they don't like, the same went for voting rights and the bad ideas spread through America. The law was and is used by such people as a bludgeon on those they perceive as enemies and abused to wage war on American citizens.

The rule of law means equality under the law and the starts in court, not in the prosecutor's office, prosecutors have discretion and they used it to the max with Trump. The main thing though is they will lock him up for good with little fuss or muss and let the J6 investigation and trials unfold with the kingpin gone down first. Donald did good work in the midterms, the democrats owe him the senate and a stifled red wave with GOP chaos among themselves in the house and lunatics running around lose, thanks Donald, Herschel capped it off and Donald's work in America is finished, he can now rest in his cell, Amen.
 
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DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Any unaccounted documents were probably flushed down the toilet by Trump. Search warrants can't be far behind considering the history and nature of the documents.


WaPo: DOJ Asks Judge To Hold Trump Team In Contempt

95,727 views Dec 8, 2022
Former U.S. attorney Barbara McQuade and former FBI counterintelligence agent Peter Strzok react to reporting in the Washington Post that Justice Department prosecutors have urged a federal judge to hold Trump’s team in contempt over the Mar-a-Lago documents case.
 
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DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member

Special Counsel Jack Smith files CONTEMPT Motion against Trump in Stolen Document Case

26,864 views Dec 8, 2022
The Department of Justice Criminal Investigation of Trump now being led by Special Counsel Jack Smith has intensified as the DOJ has filed a contempt motion against Donald Trump for not designating a custodian of records to certify all stolen and documents have been returned to the DOJ.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
There may never have been a more complicated set of circumstances to a legal case(s).

All you can do is trust the system at the moment.

It's all we've got whether it works out correctly or not. That guy has lived a life of loopholes and he's trying to worm through another one(s) while conning 30% of the people who believe his every word. I know it sucks right now but...

thanks for that!
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Jack tossed a hand grenade into the campfire of Trump's team! The Don should be worried, the walls are closing in and the corner is getting tighter.


Legal Bomb Hits Trump: Special Counsel Eyes Contempt In Mar-A-Lago Stolen Docs Case

93,400 views Dec 8, 2022
In a dramatic escalation, the Department of Justice is pushing to hold Trump’s team in contempt over the Mar-a-Lago documents case. This secret process first reported by The Washington post is a clear escalation from a frustrated team of prosecutors over Trump’s conduct in the process of returning classified documents. This dramatic move also signals Jack Smith, the new Special Counsel, is going on offense in this probe. It comes as Trump’s team found two more classified documents in Florida and the same day we learn the special master review is officially over. Mother Jones Washington Bureau Chief David Corn and Maya Wiley a former civil prosecutor in the famed SDNY join MSNBC Chief Legal Correspondent Ari Melber on “The Beat.”
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member

Trump Storage Unit Docs ‘Icing On The Cake’ Says Nat’l Security Attorney | The Katie Phang Show

116,506 views Dec 8, 2022
A search for documents carried out at the behest of Donald Trump's attorneys turned up two documents with classified markings at a Florida storage facility. National Security Attorney Bradley Moss joins Katie Phang to discuss.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
You are not alone many lawyers have been screaming for their heads for a while now and I've posted their videos. Your criticism is not too out of line with prevailing professional opinion. However, there were reasons for delay and prosecutors have a lot of discretion and it's basically a matter of opinion at this point and not one of law, and I doubt it will end up as one.
The prevailing professional opinion has been to methodically investigate and be certain at every step that their work is solid before making a move. . It's the "experts" who are talking to the public on the internet who are "screaming their heads off", including the "justice matters" guy , as well as you and a few others who post here. To me, you and the others are like infantile sports fans who are yelling nonsense from the sidelines. I want things to end with a decision against Trump that hurts him in a way that he can't come back. Also to make certain others know they will be held accountable should they ape Trump. That is all that is important.

They are going to have one shot at a trial and it has to be a good one. If a person wants something bad, they can have it that way. And that's how I see the "make it happen Nahhhhow" types want it. I'm kind of glad they are not the professional in charge of the investigation.
 

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
The prevailing professional opinion has been to methodically investigate and be certain at every step that their work is solid before making a move. . It's the "experts" who are talking to the public on the internet who are "screaming their heads off", including the "justice matters" guy , as well as you and a few others who post here. To me, you and the others are like infantile sports fans who are yelling nonsense from the sidelines. I want things to end with a decision against Trump that hurts him in a way that he can't come back. Also to make certain others know they will be held accountable should they ape Trump. That is all that is important.

They are going to have one shot at a trial and it has to be a good one. If a person wants something bad, they can have it that way. And that's how I see the "make it happen Nahhhhow" types want it. I'm kind of glad they are not the professional in charge of the investigation.
I can understand the people's frustration to a degree.

We live in a society that seems to demand results now days. Maybe 10 years from now, those of us that are still here will enjoy the made for TV docudrama about this. I hope to one day watch it and finally get some degree of total disclosure.

Also, after Watergate and Nixon's resignation and pardon, 25% of the people still loved the guy. My buddy's mom still had Nixon's stupid picture hanging on her wall right beside Jesus Christ if you can believe that.
My grandma had a pic of FDR on her wall, lol.

The point is some will always love him no matter what. I wish I could get a history book from 2050 and read all about it.

In the meantime we all have to just wait and hope true justice for all is actually a thing. Historically, we haven't had that if you think about it. Maybe it will start soon. One can only hope.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
The prevailing professional opinion has been to methodically investigate and be certain at every step that their work is solid before making a move. . It's the "experts" who are talking to the public on the internet who are "screaming their heads off", including the "justice matters" guy , as well as you and a few others who post here. To me, you and the others are like infantile sports fans who are yelling nonsense from the sidelines. I want things to end with a decision against Trump that hurts him in a way that he can't come back. Also to make certain others know they will be held accountable should they ape Trump. That is all that is important.

They are going to have one shot at a trial and it has to be a good one. If a person wants something bad, they can have it that way. And that's how I see the "make it happen Nahhhhow" types want it. I'm kind of glad they are not the professional in charge of the investigation.
Posting the debate going on in the legal community by informed pundits helps to educate people on the issue and stimulate discussion, the whole point. Many of the experts I've posted speak of these things and caution required too. However, on the documents and obstruction case it is pretty clear cut and I personally believe many of the complaints have been addressed by Jack's appointment. There has been a marked change in tone from most of these pundits including Lawence Tribe since Jack came on the scene and the elections are over. I tend to follow the consensus of experts in the field as well as educate myself on the law and how it is suppose to work. The Trump years shook people's faith in many things, including the rule of law, I'm glad to see it is returning to normal. If it works like it did back in previous scandals, there are a lot of people in deep trouble when they start turning over rocks and following the evidence. 2023 promises to be an interesting year and the only thing left is if Donald will make it through this year without being indicted.
 
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