PadawanWarrior
Well-Known Member
I don't want to speak for Drysift, but I think he'd say Neptune's Harvest Fish and Seaweed is what he means. It's good SHIT.
Anyone Else Have Problems With Intense LED's and Organic Super Soil?
- Thread starter Blazin Budz
- Start date
Blazin Budz
Well-Known Member
Very informative post. I definitely treat my soils like an organic living soil. I ran blumats so I had the watering dialed in for optimal microbial activity. I make my own compost and worm castings as well. I was top dressing but I think my real problems are getting a fast releasing source of organic cal-mag. All the organic sources for Cal-Mag I tried sucked.
Blazin Budz
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I was top dressing but just with my homemade worm castings. I also couldn't find a fast way to get my plants cal-mag in an organic form which is why I started throwing salts at them.
I think im convinced to keep trying the organic living soil. I'll probably just run a plant or 2 next to my coco plants for a while until i get it perfectly dialed in.
swedsteven
Well-Known Member
Yes!!!
i will come back read all the post
i will come back read all the post
You have me wishing I had gotten some experience with other things before led/organics so I had something else to compare to. The only grow I tried with bottled nutes was a disaster. Built my own soil after that and have gone that route since. Luckily bought a timber cob light as my first light, so had a nice led from the jump. Have since bought a couple boards that I use for now.
I've only done a handful of grows, so a "good grow" to me is probably far different to others, definitely when it comes to yield. On that note though, the past two grows I turned my lights down a little bit and have noticed the plants seem to be a little happier. Nothing crazy, but went from like 35 to 30 watts/sq ft. I also used some epsom salts two times to try and help with some magnesium, once like a week before the flip and two weeks after the flip. Not even sure if the amounts I used did much of anything, but I always like to use things lightly as to not throw the balance off too much.
I wanted to get some langbeinite to try out, but the 0-0-22 kind of scared me off. The sulfur+potassium+magnesium seemed like it covered some possible "holes" in my soil, but I opted for greensand as it seems to be a softer type addition at 0-0-3. The greensand will take a bit longer to become available it seems, but hopefully the worm bins can help speed it up a little more so. I'd like to think that having a few different mineral sources also helps supply all sorts of micros at all different times as they become available at different rates. At this point I have basalt, st George black, greensand, gypsum and oyster shell flour in my soils. Like led lights, I've collected far more amendments than I'll need for a long time..
Sorry for rambling but these are my two favorite subjects I spend most my time reading about. Wish i had more experience to draw from to pass along though.
NewGrower2011
Well-Known Member
@kratos015 I noticed in another thread you were talking about neem and karanja and you mentioned there to use neem for veg and karanaj for flower. I've got both but was under the impression they worked better together so that comment got me curious as to why the distinction?
Blazin Budz
Well-Known Member
With COCO, all you need to do is get some megacrop and cal-mag and follow the directions and you will have nice grows.
Organic living soils are definitely the hardest way of growing in my opinion but definitely very rewarding if you get it right. I have plenty of successful experience with organic living soils with CMH/HPS as far back as 10 years ago. The intensity of the LED's is what really threw me off this go around. After reading this thread, I definitely think its do-able now, it just takes some further dialing in and probably a round or 2 to let the microbial activity really do its thing. Aside from the Build-A-Soil I have, I also use A great recipe from DANKFRANK on another site. Here is the recipe.
BASE
3.5 gal compost
1.25 gal coir
2 gal peat
.5 gal EWC
.5 gal Black Kow
.5 gal vermiculite
.5 gal permatil
1 gal perlite
~ 1.5 cu ft - 9.75 gallons of media
NPK Amendment Mix
This is added per 1.5 cu ft of media.
3/4c - alfalfa meal
1/3c - aragonite
1/2c - azomite
2/3c - bat guano(N)
1/2c - bat guano(P)
3tbsp - blood meal
1c - bone meal
1/3c - calcitic limestone
1c + 1tbsp - crab meal
3tbsp - diatomaceous earth/calcium bentonite (red Lake Earth at Tractor Supply)
1/3c - dolomitic limestone
1/2c - dry molasses (stockade Kandy Kid)
2tbsp - elemental sulfur
3tbsp - feather meal
1c - greensand
1/2c - gypsum
1/3c + 1tbsp - humic/fulvic
1c + 1tbsp - kelp meal
1/8c - potassium sulfate
2/3c - rock phosphate
1/3c + 1tbsp - sul-po-mg
1 2/3c - Symphony
1/2c - roots organics cal/mag
1/2c - gnatrol
Oyster shell
This creates a soil which has a NPK profile of 740-1110-945. However, due to the nature of organic materials, not all of this is available at the same time. The diversity and the balance of this mix is why it still works. I really need to find an organic source of instant Cal-Mag to tweak this recipe with for my LED's but its still solid.
Even with the same NPK profile, you couldn't get similar results by getting all of your nitrogen from something that is fairly "quick release" like blood meal. You certainly would burn your plants and have excessive runoff, leaching nitrogen, etc.
With a recipe like this, I have well over $1,000 invested in amendments alone so im not done with organics yet. I will run some soil next to my coco and get it dialed in.
@Blazin Budz ...
With your coco grow, did/do you pH correct your irrigation water?
How about with the organic grow?
Are you irrigating with well water?
With your coco grow, did/do you pH correct your irrigation water?
How about with the organic grow?
Are you irrigating with well water?
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Dang and I thought I had a lot of amendments. I'm sure you'll get it all dialed in though and I'd love to see the difference between the different methods. I'm pretty much sold on organic soil for my growing method, but I love seeing the beautiful plants people grow with other methods.
Curious about the amount of aeration, looks something like 1.5 gallons in your mix. Most mixes I see are roughly 1/3 peat 1/3 compost 1/3 aeration as rough ballpark figures with aeration being the one most likely to be bumped up.
One last thing I'll touch on that is far beyond my knowledge, but something I bet you've already read through and addressed is the different environment leds do best in compared to other lighting. It seems like keeping the plants transpiring at the proper rates is a bit more touchy with the led spectrums since it lacks some parts of the cmh/hps spectrums (ir and uva).
Sorry for not really offering anything to help your situation, but I look forward to hearing others chime in on the topic as well. Best of luck though and hope it all gets better with each grow sir.
OneHitDone
Well-Known Member
Water only absolutely works.
I have been mixing this blend for a family member in 5 gallon home depot buckets under 600W HPS and they have ZERO issues. Just grab the garden hose every few days and wet them down.
A lot of the problems people are having is not even due to high intensities by rather shitty spectrums
I have been mixing this blend for a family member in 5 gallon home depot buckets under 600W HPS and they have ZERO issues. Just grab the garden hose every few days and wet them down.
A lot of the problems people are having is not even due to high intensities by rather shitty spectrums
swedsteven
Well-Known Member
Intense led only please lol not enought ppfd to stress themWater only absolutely works.
I have been mixing this blend for a family member in 5 gallon home depot buckets under 600W HPS and they have ZERO issues. Just grab the garden hose every few days and wet them down.
A lot of the problems people are having is not even due to high intensities by rather shitty spectrums
View attachment 4764974View attachment 4764976View attachment 4764978
swedsteven
Well-Known Member
47 watts sqfoot 2240 watss i start to dim them at week 5 a flow
Blazin Budz
Well-Known Member
So in all my years of organic growing back in the day, I never Ph'd my water. The area i live in has some very good tap water so I would normally just bubble it for 24 hours and use it that way. This new grow, with all my deficiencies/problems, I had no choice but to start checking PH and even got an Reverse Osmosis setup so now I run RO water.
My Coco setup is drain to waste with PH'd RO water.
Blazin Budz
Well-Known Member
With the base mix portion of that recipe, I pretty much just eyeballed it. I have a pretty good idea of how much aeration I like looks like in my mixes.
Honestly im no light expert myself. I do know my HLG 320 QB XL's are R SPEC so they include some red spectrum. I also run UVB lamps by Solacure. They claim to be the best in the game at the UVB spectrum. I cant comment on their effectiveness at the moment because i haven't ran a fully dialed in grow yet. My next run with straight coco should put them to the test though.
No worries on your input to the situation. Im actually very pleased with where this thread went. I thought it'd get filled with a bunch of haters but its been pretty knowledgeable so far. I've taken many classes towards a Horticulture degree and the more I learn about gardening it makes me realize how much I don't know. At the end of the day we're all just here to learn.
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Very few people have worm castings good enough to provide sufficient nutrition. Takes nearly a year to get worm castings that refined. Unless the scraps/compost one feeds to their worms is high in nutrients, the EWC won't have much nutritional value to them.
If, however, one adds the same ingredients to a worm bin that they do their soil the EWC will be highly nutritional.
OSF is best for grit, though Soft Rock Phosphate and Crab Shells (not powdered) aren't bad either. Worms just LOVE OSF.
Neem is another favorite for them.
Pretty much, you'll be able to dump the BAS blend into your worm bin with some OSF for grit and you'll have some super EWC in 6+ months.
They do work great together, and both can be used in veg just fine. You just want to lay off the neem in flower due to it's 6-1-1 NPK, so I just stick with Karanja.
ComfortCreator
Well-Known Member
I am on my 3rd run of water only, and have learned enough I think I have it down now and am in week 5 flower with nicely green plants.
There is no real understansing by a lot of us growers how much N the plants really use. Once flowering starts they go nuts and all the nutes, especially N, get used up in 4 to 8 weeks, depending upon which nutes and how much were in there.
I started from seed in cubes, transplanted to 1gal fabric pots, Stonington Blend for the 1st month. Then I transplanted to my soil in 3 gallon fabric pots and vegged using the manifold technique.
About 10 days before flower i transplanted into 10 gallon fabric pots of my soil...but only filled them to a 7gal level.
At end of week 2 of flower, i topdressed with an inch or so of my soil.
At end of week 4, i topdressed with my soil up to the 10gallon mark, and added 2 T of kelp meal. While perhaps not water only, i think of it as a simpler way of having a higher K mix without having to mix it separately.
I could see the yellowing starting on a few bottom leaves in week 2...making me consider moving the topdress up a week next time. But for now, I have the greenest, thickest bud plants ive had so far. Using a 10gallon pot when doing a manifold is really helpful -- it provides a lot more base to build a manifold on top of. I even transplanted from 3gal to 10gallon pots with tomato cages already installed. Some weird fun stuff to try.
But it was said above by the excellent kratos...it is about topdressing and keeping up, transplanting as needed. Some of what I do comes from R. Drysift's ideas and posts too.
My first run i started in my SS in 7 gal pots. They yellowed early but i made it and had a great harvest.
My 2nd run i transplanted...1 to 3 to 7. It went much better, but still had issues by weeks 4 5 6.
3rd run i am transplanting and topdressing. I seem to have landed at the place kratos and others found long ago. It is amazing getting it right because it feels very Zen to guide and not actually feed the plants directly.
OP sounds like you just need to read this thread, i see 3 or 4 examples od how to make it successful. This has been brought up but never clearly explained AFAIK. Great thread.
There is no real understansing by a lot of us growers how much N the plants really use. Once flowering starts they go nuts and all the nutes, especially N, get used up in 4 to 8 weeks, depending upon which nutes and how much were in there.
I started from seed in cubes, transplanted to 1gal fabric pots, Stonington Blend for the 1st month. Then I transplanted to my soil in 3 gallon fabric pots and vegged using the manifold technique.
About 10 days before flower i transplanted into 10 gallon fabric pots of my soil...but only filled them to a 7gal level.
At end of week 2 of flower, i topdressed with an inch or so of my soil.
At end of week 4, i topdressed with my soil up to the 10gallon mark, and added 2 T of kelp meal. While perhaps not water only, i think of it as a simpler way of having a higher K mix without having to mix it separately.
I could see the yellowing starting on a few bottom leaves in week 2...making me consider moving the topdress up a week next time. But for now, I have the greenest, thickest bud plants ive had so far. Using a 10gallon pot when doing a manifold is really helpful -- it provides a lot more base to build a manifold on top of. I even transplanted from 3gal to 10gallon pots with tomato cages already installed. Some weird fun stuff to try.
But it was said above by the excellent kratos...it is about topdressing and keeping up, transplanting as needed. Some of what I do comes from R. Drysift's ideas and posts too.
My first run i started in my SS in 7 gal pots. They yellowed early but i made it and had a great harvest.
My 2nd run i transplanted...1 to 3 to 7. It went much better, but still had issues by weeks 4 5 6.
3rd run i am transplanting and topdressing. I seem to have landed at the place kratos and others found long ago. It is amazing getting it right because it feels very Zen to guide and not actually feed the plants directly.
OP sounds like you just need to read this thread, i see 3 or 4 examples od how to make it successful. This has been brought up but never clearly explained AFAIK. Great thread.
kratos015
Well-Known Member
Something to consider also, it isn't just the plants that use Nitrogen in a living soil. Nitrogen is energy.
Consider the C:N ratios for composting, the same applies in a living soil/no-till application because your no-till pot/bed is slowly decomposing over time. This decomposition takes energy, in the form of Nitrogen. Furthermore, the microbes themselves consume nitrogen.
It isn't enough to just have enough Nitrogen in your soil for your plants, you also need to have enough Nitrogen to sustain the composting process and the life living within your soil as well.
While there is in fact a good deal of information here, there's a thread I'd like to point to that has the best information concerning no-till.
No-Till Gardening: Revisited
“It seems to me that one thing is absolutely necessary and that is passion without motive - passion that is not the result of some commitment or...
Clackamas Coots and MountainOrganics drop a literal goldmine of information in this thread. Literally everything I know stems from a combination of this thread and personal experience.
Over 1000 pages and I have read this entire thread, all 1002 pages a total of two times. I recommend anyone interest in learning do the same thing I did, treat it as a class.
Go and grab yourself a notebook or two and a nice pen. Read through the entire thread and take notes along the way. Then, read through the entire thread again and take more notes along the way. Then, re-read all of the notes you took and organize them a little better in the second notebook. Eventually, you won't need the notebook because all the reading, writing, and personal experience will allow this wealth of knowledge to stick in your head.
Richard Drysift
Well-Known Member
You won’t either; ph is set by the composition of the soil mix itself and is also related to microbial activity. It’s true; there is nasty bacteria in reclaimed water that will make you sick. So dont drink it; fine for your plants though. They don’t get sick the same way we do.
Yep huge fan of worms. I’ve been raising them for years; they are like my children except that I keep them in a box in the dark and feed them kitchen scraps. When I say soluble NPK I am talking about liquid fertilizers like fish emulsion or seaweed. You could consider the leacheate that flows through the spigot after bottom of my worm factory 360 as a soluble NPK but it’s kind of a raw form of plant food; contains both good/bad microbes and other goodies like sucrose from decomposing fruits.
athlete
Well-Known Member
VPD and LED appears to be critical...
LED and Calmag issues.
So, there's been some correlation between using LED lights and calmag issues, particularly a lack of calcium and sometimes magnesium. I've been doing some testing with tomato plants under an LED. I was finally able to replicate the issue. Now, what I have found is that it's not really a Calmag...
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