Bonsai mothers from seeds?

Apologies if this has been answered before, I've looked around and couldn't find the info I need.

All the info I can find about creating bonsai mothers, such as this https://www.growweedeasy.com/how-to-keep-a-bonsai-mother-for-unlimited-clones says to start new mothers from cuttings. This makes sense for multiple reasons, one being that cuttings are usually taken from a healthy vegging plant that has already passed the delicate seedling stage, once the cutting is rooted it is immediately in veg and ready for training.

My question: Is it possible, (or should I say, will it work well) to create bonsai mothers from seed? Has anyone got experience with doing this? I ask because if possible, I like the idea of making bonsai mothers directly from seeds to eventually fill a space with their clones, and not have to veg larger plants from seed first just to take cuttings from them to get some bonsai mothers going. Time and space constraints, etc. Hopefully that makes sense.

Thanks!

Yeah you can do that. It isn't necessary to keep the "seed plant" as the mother though, you can keep a clone of it just as well. Basically, you just grow however many seeds you want for your project and take cuttings of each of them. Then you flower out either the original seed plant or the cutting, whichever suits your timeline, and once you sample the finished product, you keep the "mother" of the buds you like and trash the rest. It takes a LOT of effort to keep bonsai mothers happy and healthy, but it can be worth it if you have a premium on space.

VictorFlorez said:

Apologies if this has been answered before, I've looked around and couldn't find the info I need.

All the info I can find about creating bonsai mothers, such as this https://www.growweedeasy.com/how-to-keep-a-bonsai-mother-for-unlimited-clones says to start new mothers from cuttings. This makes sense for multiple reasons, one being that cuttings are usually taken from a healthy vegging plant that has already passed the delicate seedling stage, once the cutting is rooted it is immediately in veg and ready for training.

My question: Is it possible, (or should I say, will it work well) to create bonsai mothers from seed? Has anyone got experience with doing this? I ask because if possible, I like the idea of making bonsai mothers directly from seeds to eventually fill a space with their clones, and not have to veg larger plants from seed first just to take cuttings from them to get some bonsai mothers going. Time and space constraints, etc. Hopefully that makes sense.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

It doesn't make sense IMO because you need to run the seeds out first to find the right pheno before you know which one will be a mum. Unless you want to pop multiple seeds and create multiple mums, then run clones out to find the right pheno, but that just seems backwards to me.

Rurumo said:

Yeah you can do that. It isn't necessary to keep the "seed plant" as the mother though, you can keep a clone of it just as well. Basically, you just grow however many seeds you want for your project and take cuttings of each of them. Then you flower out either the original seed plant or the cutting, whichever suits your timeline, and once you sample the finished product, you keep the "mother" of the buds you like and trash the rest. It takes a LOT of effort to keep bonsai mothers happy and healthy, but it can be worth it if you have a premium on space.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the detailed reply Rurumo. It's my first post but I've been lurking for a while, and always delighted by your helpful advice and growing skills.

Other than rolling the dice on performance and quality, if there's no technical issues with turning 'seed plants' straight into bonsai mothers to keep, and then flowering out some cuttings from them, I feel that would be preferable for me. This way, without needing to run much power or set up a large space yet, I can pop a couple of seeds and get straight to work on making some cloning stock for a future SoG style grow.

I'm envisioning a 4x4 for flowering 12 plants. If I were to take cuttings to keep, and flower the seed plants, I worry that I would end up with an uneven canopy, bushier plants (I would rather try packing in many straight bats rather than train a few wider ones) and different length harvest times, as I only have few seeds each of different type. For example, I have only one Jack Herer seed that I received as a freebie. Something tells me if I have a flowering room full of 12 different plants grown from seed, from more than 5+ different strains, things might get tricky.

Of course, I can see the advantage of growing out seed plants first that I take cuttings from, I would know sooner if my mothers are prize winners and could pick and choose the best, and ditch any that aren't. Especially if I had 12+ seeds of the same type.

Again, thank you for the reply.

ThisBudIsForYou said:

It doesn't make sense IMO because you need to run the seeds out first to find the right pheno before you know which one will be a mum. Unless you want to pop multiple seeds and create multiple mums, then run clones out to find the right pheno, but that just seems backwards to me.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply ThisBudIsForYou,

I can definitely see where you're coming from, and the advantages of hunting for a mother by growing out seeds first and then taking cuttings. I understand this would be the normal order. That's probably why there's no mention of turning seeds straight into bonsai mothers- because who would want to make a mother out of a plant before they even know what it's like, and run the risk of filling a tent with crappy clones?

My situation is not ideal, and is why I'm thinking along these lines. I have a variety of seeds, but only a limited number of each type. Also, I have rather narrow windows of opportunity. I feel as if I can pop a few seeds and safely get to work on some small bonsai mothers right away, without setting up anything too complicated, and move them around / easily hide them if need be. In a little while, when running a flowering tent uninterrupted becomes a possibility, it will have to be set up and finished as quickly as possible. It would be nice to have some cloning stock ready to go when that time comes.

Apologies for the long winded responses!

Talk to @lusidghost
I also keep 'bonsai' mother's. I just pick a spot and buzz across let them grow back once a month or so
I'll let them grow up straight for a while until preflower, then chop off the top and bend it over, let the other branches come up then top them and let it ride. After that when you lop off the top like a buzz cut they come back like reveg without the crazy growth
Once they've been flowered a decision is made whether she is a keep or not. Usually I'll run a 'test tent' in a 2x2 or 3x3 with the candidates and run that tent opposite time of the main flower tent so I don't have to use heaters in the winter. The power is used for something useful, and heat is created to warm up the night cycle in the main room
I understand that not everyone can do this due to plant limits etc. But I still fall under my alloted plant count so I'm all good

Your cloning game has to be on point! Take clones at 1st topping, although side branches work better imo. I've gotten some small clones & try to get them even before plant is sexed. If it's fem seed even better & if in a hurry then flower the seed plant asap.

I used to keep bonsai moms but now I just cut clones from the clone. By the time clone is vegged to go in flower I already have a new mom in a 1/2 gal. For new seeds I have kept them in solo cups or 1/2 gal grow bags until the clone has flowered, keepers get potted up & start clone from clone cycle.

VictorFlorez said:

Thank you for the detailed reply Rurumo. It's my first post but I've been lurking for a while, and always delighted by your helpful advice and growing skills.

Other than rolling the dice on performance and quality, if there's no technical issues with turning 'seed plants' straight into bonsai mothers to keep, and then flowering out some cuttings from them, I feel that would be preferable for me. This way, without needing to run much power or set up a large space yet, I can pop a couple of seeds and get straight to work on making some cloning stock for a future SoG style grow.

I'm envisioning a 4x4 for flowering 12 plants. If I were to take cuttings to keep, and flower the seed plants, I worry that I would end up with an uneven canopy, bushier plants (I would rather try packing in many straight bats rather than train a few wider ones) and different length harvest times, as I only have few seeds each of different type. For example, I have only one Jack Herer seed that I received as a freebie. Something tells me if I have a flowering room full of 12 different plants grown from seed, from more than 5+ different strains, things might get tricky.

Of course, I can see the advantage of growing out seed plants first that I take cuttings from, I would know sooner if my mothers are prize winners and could pick and choose the best, and ditch any that aren't. Especially if I had 12+ seeds of the same type.

Again, thank you for the reply.

Click to expand...

We pheno hunt for a reason. If you have really stable genetics then whatever, but not knowing the traits of the mother is a crap shoot.

What I do is clone all of my plants right before I flip them to flower, and keep the clones bonsai'd until I harvest. Then I cull the moms of the plants that weren't special or at least showing potential. I keep the keepers in bonsai form. After the pheno hunt, I will rerun clones of each mother and further eliminate the less desirable ones.

Use painters tape to number each plant and its clone (plant and its clone are #1, ect ect) so that you know what's what.

Rurumo said:

It takes a LOT of effort to keep bonsai mothers happy and healthy, but it can be worth it if you have a premium on space.

Click to expand...

It doesn't at all. I give them the same nutrients as my flowering plants, water about every other day, and prune about once every other week.

I also keep mine in 4" rockwool cubes. The plants don't need much medium if you keep them small.

I just got done pruning mine.

I'm going to make a better quality version of this. I was in IG mode and have the camera vertical. But here's a little tutorial showing how I prune mine.

"Foolage" lol...

lusidghost said:

We pheno hunt for a reason. If you have really stable genetics then whatever, but not knowing the traits of the mother is a crap shoot.

What I do is clone all of my plants right before I flip them to flower, and keep the clones bonsai'd until I harvest. Then I cull the moms of the plants that weren't special or at least showing potential. I keep the keepers in bonsai form. After the pheno hunt, I will rerun clones of each mother and further eliminate the less desirable ones.

Use painters tape to number each plant and its clone (plant and its clone are #1, ect ect) so that you know what's what.

Click to expand...

Beautiful bonsai's there lusidghost, very nice. I would be considering organic soil / compost for mothers, and then grow cuttings in coco for flower, as I have bags of soil around but a limited nutrient budget. That's a great little setup with the fluoros wired to the shelves, I saw those same metal shelves you have just the other day when scoping out options to elevate pots for drainage. They look easy to stack more levels on anytime. I can see the tubing running down from the side, is that drain to waste?

I'm getting the feeling now that the cons might outweigh the pro's for me with bonsai mothers from seed. I was fond of the idea of starting a SoG using clones, as it would be more uniform and probably finish quicker. But it sounds like people here would recommend I run a tent full of different seeds, and take cuttings of each before they flower to sus out the winners for next time...

...What kind of issues might I face doing this? I'm worried that some of my plants will get way taller or bushier than others, and they will all be ready for harvest at different times. I might be able to live with the extra time it takes to run a full grow starting from seeds with a setup that can't be moved from start to finish- but what if I have to move the lights higher for taller plants and leave shorter ones more distant, or harvest plants that are ready sooner than others, leaving a 1/2 full tent running full power? If I'm overthinking this or worrying over nothing, please don't hesitate to let me know.

@Jjgrow420 Sounds like a good system, cold temps will be an issue here too I imagine. I'm hoping the lights alone will help keep temps up at night when I need it, either running a cooling hood into the lung room or not using the hood at all if need be. It's going to be a learning experience. Hey I grew up on Ren and Stimpy!

Thanks again for all the helpful responses everyone, much appreciated.

VictorFlorez said:

Beautiful bonsai's there lusidghost, very nice. I would be considering organic soil / compost for mothers, and then grow cuttings in coco for flower, as I have bags of soil around but a limited nutrient budget. That's a great little setup with the fluoros wired to the shelves, I saw those same metal shelves you have just the other day when scoping out options to elevate pots for drainage. They look easy to stack more levels on anytime. I can see the tubing running down from the side, is that drain to waste?

I'm getting the feeling now that the cons might outweigh the pro's for me with bonsai mothers from seed. I was fond of the idea of starting a SoG using clones, as it would be more uniform and probably finish quicker. But it sounds like people here would recommend I run a tent full of different seeds, and take cuttings of each before they flower to sus out the winners for next time...

...What kind of issues might I face doing this? I'm worried that some of my plants will get way taller or bushier than others, and they will all be ready for harvest at different times. I might be able to live with the extra time it takes to run a full grow starting from seeds with a setup that can't be moved from start to finish- but what if I have to move the lights higher for taller plants and leave shorter ones more distant, or harvest plants that are ready sooner than others, leaving a 1/2 full tent running full power? If I'm overthinking this or worrying over nothing, please don't hesitate to let me know.

Click to expand...

Thanks. They are 40w LEDs. I've always used T5s until recently, but I like these better because the plants can grow into the lights without burning at all. I am running drain to waste.

You can use a trellis net to keep the canopy fairly level. They will probably finish at different times, but that's the nature of running multiple phenotypes / strains. Once you find your mother/s it will all be worth it.

lusidghost said:

Thanks. They are 40w LEDs. I've always used T5s until recently, but I like these better because the plants can grow into the lights without burning at all. I am running drain to waste.

You can use a trellis net to keep the canopy fairly level. They will probably finish at different times, but that's the nature of running multiple phenotypes / strains. Once you find your mother/s it will all be worth it.

Click to expand...

Oh LEDs, I see now. I noticed your bonsai was kissing the lights and still looks happy. Do you mind if I ask where you got the lights from, are they made for growing or could I find similar at a lighting / home store?

Is that a $ and a gun on that label? The moneymaker gangsta mother and sad faces? Sorry I'm intrigued now

You probably get a lot of questions from noobs around here so thanks again everyone for taking the time to help me out. I think I have a good idea where I need to go from here.

For bonsai mothers imo you need to flower it 1st to know what it is you are growing.

The idea of bonsai is keeping them small which ime is difficult to do with regular clones.

To keep them small and stalky I take the clones in the 4-5th week of flower, this is a example cut 2 months ago 4-5th wk 12-12.
Check that structure for such a short plant

Bonsai monster mum!
I'd just pruned it back before taking the pic.

You can read about them here.
Or ask if you want help/advice on them.

VictorFlorez said:

Oh LEDs, I see now. I noticed your bonsai was kissing the lights and still looks happy. Do you mind if I ask where you got the lights from, are they made for growing or could I find similar at a lighting / home store?

Is that a $ and a gun on that label? The moneymaker gangsta mother and sad faces? Sorry I'm intrigued now

You probably get a lot of questions from noobs around here so thanks again everyone for taking the time to help me out. I think I have a good idea where I need to go from here.

Click to expand...

The dollar sign & pistol is a strain called Money Gun. The frown is a strain called Upside Down Frown, but the name is too long so I just call them "frowns."

These are the LEDs. They aren't grow lights, but they are 6500k which is the vegging range.

lusidghost said:

I just got done pruning mine.
View attachment 5131852

Click to expand...

These moms are close to a year old. There are two rows, but it's hard to tell.

*I just looked and I took the clones on The 25th of June.

@Star Dog thanks, I'll have a proper look at the diary when I get a free moment. Nice little mother with the funky looking re-veg growth! Pretty good structure, so that is just a result of taking the cutting so late during flowering, not pruning / training? Also, is that soil w/perlite, and do you find the round pot makes trimming roots harder?

@lusidghost ah of course, makes sense. My notes are always full of little pictures and wingdings, all that matters is we know what they mean!

Thank you, I might have another look at the shop lights from my local hardware store again, those sort of lights look like they would be a better option for small plants than my Chinese blurple.

Wow, a year in those rockwool cubes, do you trim the roots? I was wondering how old they are with those nice chunky stems.