Buddies, side-light and under-canopy LEDs

end_of_the_tunnel said:

But doesn't his PC RED already offer nice enough bleed through of far red.
Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. but in a smaller format of 3030/2835 it could be a very nice proposition. The PC Red.

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Prawn Connery said:

It's all about the ratios. The PC Reds include Far Red, but most other LEDs don't – or at least they have a very low Far Red to Red ratio (actually, when we talk about R:FR ratios it's usually the other way around – most LEDs have a very high Red: Far Red ratio). Also, some growers are running Far Reds as initiators, leaving them running for 15 mins or so after lights-out and priming them 15 mins before lights-on to speed up flowering. So there is a market for a Far Red product that can be run independently of other LEDs in the grow room.

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You are preaching to the converted. Your comments are a good breakdown for the general reader, but are superfluous to the the point I was questioning in the post I made that you responded to.

The problem I see is this. Why should he bother with Far Red, when he already has a really good potential product in the PC Red?
We could argue that the the market for 730 is already oversaturated. Demand and economics already reflects this in price for 730 diodes.

I will further add.

In terms of him bringing out a 730 diode. I can see a repeat of the post you made somewhere on rollitup about his 660 product, lamenting the lack of interest and uptake.

And I question why something like his 660 diode is displayed on forums to the general readership as a viable and economic option, when its only offered in quantities viable to established businesses who are going to use and markup the end cost close to that of competitor diodes?
Where is the benefit to the enduser?

Having to take your own diodes, and further process them into finished product is one way to build market awareness.
I think Teknik brand diode awareness and uptake could be improved if he was more flexible with early adopters, and found ways to make his diodes accessible to potential and smaller builders. Without middlemen.
Has he even considered or wondered about ways to do something like that, that would be profitable for him.

Seems like some sort of crossroads and divergence for Teknik.
Sell diodes, and/or shift stock by pumping more resources to turn them into an end product. Lot of work for one man. I do not know his figures.

single 730 is still needed for the end of day pfr switch

end_of_the_tunnel said:

You are preaching to the converted. Your comments are a good breakdown for the general reader, but are superfluous to the the point I was questioning in the post I made that you responded to.

The problem I see is this. Why should he bother with Far Red, when he already has a really good potential product in the PC Red?
We could argue that the the market for 730 is already oversaturated. Demand and economics already reflects this in price for 730 diodes.

I will further add.

In terms of him bringing out a 730 diode. I can see a repeat of the post you made somewhere on rollitup about his 660 product, lamenting the lack of interest and uptake.

And I question why something like his 660 diode is displayed on forums to the general readership as a viable and economic option, when its only offered in quantities viable to established businesses who are going to use and markup the end cost close to that of competitor diodes?
Where is the benefit to the enduser?

Having to take your own diodes, and further process them into finished product is one way to build market awareness.
I think Teknik brand diode awareness and uptake could be improved if he was more flexible with early adopters, and found ways to make his diodes accessible to potential and smaller builders. Without middlemen.
Has he even considered or wondered about ways to do something like that, that would be profitable for him.

Seems like some sort of crossroads and divergence for Teknik.
Sell diodes, and/or shift stock by pumping more resources to turn them into an end product. Lot of work for one man. I do not know his figures.

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Yeah, you've lost me.

Firstly, you'll have to link me to the post where I "lamented the lack of interest and uptake" in his "660 product" as that doesn't ring a bell with me. Sorry. Maybe you read something out of context.

Secondly, you can't use PC red as an initiator – which I already explained in the "superfluous" post you seem to have overlooked.

Thirdly, @welight made a valid point about the PC red covering the 680 region, which is arguably an important area of photosynthetic response (as it coincides with the Chlorophyll A absorption peak) that other diodes don't cover.

Lastly, Teknik is not here to address your issues, so I'm not about to put words in his mouth. But have you even asked him about his diodes directly? And who are these "middlemen" you speak of? Buddies are a retail product – they are not individual diodes – and so obviously they will be sold to retailers.

But if you are talking about buying bulk diodes for your own projects, why are you complaining about it here? This is a thread about Buddies, not LED Teknik's business model – as if you are intimately familiar with it. For example, how do you know he hasn't produced a PC red in 3030 or 2835?

It sounds to me like you have already approached him and, for whatever reason, you didn't like his answers to your questions and now you have chosen to use this thread as a sounding board for your own frustrations.

That's fine. But let's not pretend you are speaking on everyone else's behalf, because that's not the way I am reading it. If you want to get into the horticultural LED business, might I kindly suggest this is not the way to do it?

I'm not trying to be rude to anyone, but honestly, some of you guys are going off on some real tangents here and I'm not even the person to address them.

Prawn Connery said:

I'm not trying to be rude to anyone, but honestly, some of you guys are going off on some real tangents here and I'm not even the person to address them.

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Its the RIU way unfortunately, this is why we cant have nice things

Haha! It's OK, I'm a bit of an anarchist myself. It's just a shame we're talking about someone who isn't here to defend himself, or at the very least explain his position. I really don't want to be drawn into a debate about someone else's business model because I'm in no position to comment.

Prawn Connery said:

Haha! It's OK, I'm a bit of an anarchist myself. It's just a shame we're talking about someone who isn't here to defend himself, or at the very least explain his position. I really don't want to be drawn into a debate about someone else's business model because I'm in no position to comment.

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Just gotta use the words free and testers , muthafkrs start changing attitudes then

If the title was " Free buddies to test" this entire thread would be filled with people slobbering all over Tekniks nuts, until he chose the testers, then its back to " haha they suck, already better out there bro"

Mine are still in packages sitting on my bench, hoping to have them up and running before next crop moves into flower.

I missed a bit of discussion over the weekend, I see. For those who took exception to my "game-changer" comment - others have already touched on the qualities which distinguish Buddies from your average strip, so I'll just reiterate: diffuse light with a wide spread; exceptionally flexible form-factor; easily adhered to most surfaces, without tapping and screwing or using thermal epoxy; and (eventually) a great selection of various wavelengths. All at an excellent price. Yes, Cutter can make bespoke strips, but that doesn't fill the gap the Buddies fill.

Very interesting thread. I would like to try out some buddies. Are they currently available to purchase?

radiant Rudy said:

Very interesting thread. I would like to try out some buddies. Are they currently available to purchase?

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There will be some for sale, but only limited numbers at this stage. I think @Grow Lights Australia is organising with Teknik to get some up on his site but is offering them to RIU members first. He's the best person to talk to about it. I got mine last month to test, but I think all the tester samples have been accounted for.

Thank You.

@Grow Lights Australia I'd like to get word when Buddies are good to go.

How are you guys deciding which spectrum or combo would be most beneficial? Or is it just that the added radiance below canopy level is the main advantage like side lighting except that the lights run cool?

radiant Rudy said:

Thank You.

@Grow Lights Australia I'd like to get word when Buddies are good to go.

How are you guys deciding which spectrum or combo would be most beneficial? Or is it just that the added radiance below canopy level is the main advantage like side lighting except that the lights run cool?

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I had both colours and decided that combined, they looked like a nice flowering spectrum: https://rollitup.org/t/buddies-side-light-and-under-canopy-leds.1009726/#post-15395916

I was also interested to see what all that red would do, if anything.

I think the idea is to produce Buddies in beneficial colours for veg and flower and to supplement spectra not normally covered by traditional CRI80 LEDs. I know there will be a near-UV Buddie (<430nm) that will include cyan (480nm), and a Far Red Buddie to add to the CRI95 4000K, 6500K and PC Red BUddies, so that's a start. Maybe there will be high-efficiency blue and red monos, but I'm only guessing. Teknik might want to keep a few surprises up his sleeve.

Prawn Connery said:

I had both colours and decided that combined, they looked like a nice flowering spectrum: https://rollitup.org/t/buddies-side-light-and-under-canopy-leds.1009726/#post-15395916

I was also interested to see what all that red would do, if anything.

I think the idea is to produce Buddies in beneficial colours for veg and flower and to supplement spectra not normally covered by traditional CRI80 LEDs. I know there will be a near-UV Buddie (<430nm) that will include cyan (480nm), and a Far Red Buddie to add to the CRI95 4000K, 6500K and PC Red BUddies, so that's a start. Maybe there will be high-efficiency blue and red monos, but I'm only guessing. Teknik might want to keep a few surprises up his sleeve.

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Shit! Thats exciting as hell. I`m looking forward to testing out those combos and spectra as well.

Just popped a few beans and i am wiring up PWM's to manage my rig as we speak. If those buddies dropped in the next weeks the timing would just right for my garden

Here's an update. First the Buddies.

Then the buds.

wow looking fantastic.. are you expecting that the buddies are gonna cause a need to bump up nutrition?

No. I have a run-to-waste system so they get the same nutrient regime.

Hi all, I received also from TEKNIK 4 strings of his nice "buddies", At the moment of the arrival, the crop was in their last stage so I have not used them yet.
But I have been doing some quick designs and some measures with a sekonic C-7000 spectrometer of the impact of the buddies in the intracanopy of late flowering plants (with some defoliation) that means that main top light was at this moment reaching deeper levels than normal... I will make more test in veg time and in middle flowering time when possible.

Have to say that I have been using side lighting several times with samsung leds 3500K in flex strips..with nice results..the problem is that if a leaf touch them it will be burn at the point of contact...also is difficult to use those strips in intracanopy lighting.

The white strings are very interesting, of course can be used as a main light, but they are not designed for that..They are perfect to fit any little space...as you can position the string in any place. and they will adpat to any dimension..specially interesting in microgrows..like those into a computer case or similar, like buckets.
They are easily dimmed and easily drived, so one of the things I did was use them in my high humdity clone chamber, well in fact is used for clones and little plants..about 70x45 cm.. I used one white string..in 5 minutes all was working...15 watts and 50 to 60 PPFD in all points of the chamber..perfect for clones and very little plants that you want to maintain slow growing...
This is one of the main advantages of this leds..the distribution of light..they difuse the light much more better than regular leds..this allows for the plants to be much closer to the leds...and this is important not only for the intracanopy or sidelighting..this makes you gain vertical space in little chambers...aand of course the known advantages of light difussion..not hot spots, less shadows, etc etc.. this feature is the first thing I liked about the buddies...I saw they installed and notice the nice distribution instantly . Did this pic just after installed them.




Other thing I like a lot is the spectrum..is much more wide and balanced that the clasical warm whites we are using..and this for me is a bonus!
This is the white buddies 4000K spectrum



And this a typical 4000K samsung one to compare



After doing this I try to think several quick ways of use the reds and the whites in the intracanopy

The read spectrum also is very interesting..Is a wide red..not like I was using before..adding 660 alone ..this red buddies cover a lot of red wavelenghts..and gives far red also which is perfect for emersson effect..Of course for doing EOD treatments you will need Far red alone. This kind of buddies is not for EOD.

It can be used added to a main white light..and increasing inmediately its CRI, they improve the spectrum for flowering..but in much better way than using only 660 or 630 monos..and of course you can dimm them as they are in a separate than main light..a thing that cant be done in the more common boards you se in the market...Also very interesting to add to 5000K leds and obtain a great spectrum for flowering..and their great diffusion pattern will mix better than usual leds with the main light..
The red spectrum..



This reds can be used also in intracanopy, not only for increasing popcorn buds size..but also during the stretch phase..they will change the red/far red ratio...stoping the shade avoidance syndrome..so limiting a lot the stretch in the elongation phase...
The whites can be used exactly for the same, to increase photosynthesis and also its red component will change also the red/ far red ratio probably to less extend than reds alone , but the blue component in them will also help to stop stretching.

The idea at this point (intracanopy and sidelighting use) is borrow some PPFFD /watts from canopy lighting and use them in the lower levels..this way the plant will be less stressed at the canopy, less light burn, less hot etc...and that borrowed light would be used inside in those leaves that will become yellow cause no light reach them and most people end defoliating.. Also maturation of top and lower buds will be more closer in time..

Of course taller plants will get the most benefit,..ultra compact ones will like side lighting but not like tall plants would benefit from it a lot.

After this rumblings I decided to explore some ways of using the buddies..one of them is use a solid copper wire that can be bend in all directions and attach one buddies string side by side...this way , you can position it in a lot of wais..in the intracanopy and you will got a nice light dispersion in all directions.. so..I have the wire at home..10 minutes and done... You can hang it, put around the plants etc...





Other idea was make something like a light saber...with two strings, red and whites for use in the intracanopy which give much more light of course...
I did it very quick with trash materials I have ..some tape and a piece of wood..nothing more..

A 30 watts cheap light saber



So I decided to put it in the intracanopy and take some measures..remember that this were almost finished plants..with much less leaves than normal and yellowing...but this measure give a general idea...

I taked measures from a point at about 30 cms from center of led saber... Spectrometer pointing to led emission points I mean to the side..not to top or down. Have to say that to change the buddies on/of states I had to extract the saber and remove connections and reposition it..and the spectrometer was not in a tripod..was positioned by hand in aprox the same place each time..this has produced some inconsistences for sure...so take this measures as a general approach..(if you look at the PPFD levels you will notice those inconsistences), anyway..the important measure here is the spectrum. Next crop..with more leaves...I will take measures using different channels for each color without repositioning the fixture and leaving the spectrometer in a tripod absolutely untoched...



BUDDIES RED OFF WHITE OFF PPFD: 24



BUDDIES RED ON WHITES OFF PPFD: 74



Continue...

BUDDIES RED OFF WHITES ON PPFD: 108



BUDDIES RED ON WHITES ON PPFD : 144



Well next grow I will do better testing and other fixtures... I want to say thanks to TEKNIK for sending me this promising leds to test and enjoy!

Beautiful report @nachooo. Gives readers a lot to think about.