Clones Vs Seeds

farmerjoe420

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't pay over 50 for a clone, at least not for the past 5-10 years. They are readily available between 25 and 50 at a few dispensaries in town with a pretty decent selection. I could see 100-200, or really whatever the market will bear, for something rare or personally nostalgic if it's legit.

Clones make great sense for a number of reasons in a number of settings. That super high price for a big name was worth it when prices were much higher and genetics more rare. For me it's just an easy way to try something new now, so 50 is the limit.
Everyone has there own limit but if we think about what is acceptable to the majority of the market, $50-$100 is low considering most seed packs cost more than that. Why should a keeper clone be cheaper to buy than a pack of seeds. If it’s a special cut it is worth more
 

farmerjoe420

Well-Known Member
From what I understand, it can be transferred through seed also and the entire batch/line be contaminated if one of the parents was. Scary shit bro...
Based on the studies done with hops , I believe offspring from an infected mother had a 8-10% transmission rate to the seeds.
You never know though what that will be with cannabis because I don’t think anyone has tested that yet. Could be higher. It’s scary shit indeed
 

HGCC

Well-Known Member
Everyone has there own limit but if we think about what is acceptable to the majority of the market, $50-$100 is low considering most seed packs cost more than that. Why should a keeper clone be cheaper to buy than a pack of seeds. If it’s a special cut it is worth more
I agree in theory, but eh, just doesn't end up that way. You spend your 100 bucks on some seeds and take clones, one winds up being super rad and you keep it. You can sell your clones, make back your 100 bucks or charge more...but if you charge too much why wouldn't the person you sold it to just turn around and sell a clone of the clone, to make their money back.

I think the price on clones should be low since they are easily reproducible and you can pretty easily make a lot of them.
 

higher self

Well-Known Member
@xtsho has me wanting to stop cloning for awhile lol. Not hard to keep clones though, I even keep moms in solo cups until I see what that flower do. However at this point for me it’s become more of a pain/chore when hunting & running numbers. I do have my keeper moms I still want to have around.

I’ve grown for awhile & popped a lot of seeds, don’t think the variety has made me anymore happy than just having fresh weed to smoke. Feels like I’m chasing something that I won’t find when I can just keep like 6 moms.

Also been doing a tolerance break so some mids would have me ripped right now. Will be harder for me to get bored with less strains vs smoking all the time searching for the one hitter grail that will appease my high tolerance.
 

SCJedi

Well-Known Member
I don't pop in that often but look what I stumbled across.

Hplvd (and other diseases) can be eradicated by dissecting and culturing the meristematic dome. (~0.25mm)

You're agar/MS microprop kit may work if you use a microscope, clean blades with every cut, and have really good sterile technique. I doubt it though. Especially if you have not done this kind of work before.

I teach people how to do tissue culture here in Northern California.
 

SCJedi

Well-Known Member
Not a problem. Just pay the company that identified it as being in their genetics that they've been selling to people thousands of dollars and they'll eradicate it for you.
This is a pretty silly statement. Sorry, I cannot tell if you are saying inlt tongue-in-cheek.

Hplvd has been decimating the hop industry for a long time. Yes, Dark Heart passed it all over California with their clones but also wrote the white paper on its presence in cannabis. I admit there is irony but it's running rampant everywhere now.

As for the cost, if you've never grown a piece of cannabis tissue from 0.25mm into a fully capable, rooted living plant you'd know why people charge $5k. It is really hard to do and it fails a lot.

Have you seen a field of dudded plants before? I'm not talking about a tent farm here. It is pretty horrifying sight to see in a multi-million dollar enterprise.

I work with folks in Mendocino who just lost one of six strains they had in fields this year. It's a $2m operation. That's a hard hit to take.
 

xtsho

Well-Known Member
This is a pretty silly statement. Sorry, I cannot tell if you are saying inlt tongue-in-cheek.

Hplvd has been decimating the hop industry for a long time. Yes, Dark Heart passed it all over California with their clones but also wrote the white paper on its presence in cannabis. I admit there is irony but it's running rampant everywhere now.

As for the cost, if you've never grown a piece of cannabis tissue from 0.25mm into a fully capable, rooted living plant you'd know why people charge $5k. It is really hard to do and it fails a lot.

Have you seen a field of dudded plants before? I'm not talking about a tent farm here. It is pretty horrifying sight to see in a multi-million dollar enterprise.

I work with folks in Mendocino who just lost one of six strains they had in fields this year. It's a $2m operation. That's a hard hit to take.
I don't see anything silly about it. The same company that helped to spread it is now charging to help eradicate what they spread. They profited from selling infected clones and now they're profiting from treating the same strains that they spread around.

As far as them writing the white paper, yes they wrote a paper but they don't have any actual white paper. If they do then please provide a link to that white paper as nobody has been able to provide one to date.

Also HPLVD was identified prior to their identification so they are not the entity that discovered it.

As for folks being decimated by it then the best solution is to switch genetics. There are growers that have clean plants so there is no need to obtain genetics from outfits that are known to have spread it in the first place as it's not 100% that their treatment actually completely eradicates it and it can apparently resurface.

As for the difference between a small tent grow like I have or a $2 million operation I see no relevance. My tent grow is more important to me than some commercial operation. You take a risk with any agricultural crop. They chose to farm a crop. Crop failures happen all across the agricultural industry. That's just a risk you take. And a reason many of us have no interest in commercial growing. I have no more concern for a large commercial operation than I do with some grower just growing a few plants for their personal consumption. Neither of which have no effect on me.

The solution is simple. Start with new genetics that are not affected and avoid outfits that have been spreading it and move on.

One of the reason people like myself mainly grow for preservation purposes is because we understand that saving landrace genetics and some of the classic strains is more important for the long term preservation of the plant than chasing some latest "Strain". Any plant that undergoes the extensive inbreeding that cannabis has in the last couple of decades is going to be more prone to succumbing to various diseases.

If HPLVD is as bad a threat as you and others are making it out to be it's a man made threat.
 

xtsho

Well-Known Member
Do you have online course or in person training?
The main thing is the equipment and supplies. The process is complicated but not difficult. There is plenty of available information online.

Here's a basic rundown on meristem culture


 

BlandMeow

Well-Known Member
i noticed nobody sells on craigslist anymore.

When my friend and business partner and I got busted at his place with his and my plants
Just wanted to point out the irony here. Think you cracked the case for why no one is on CL selling cuts like back in the day!

That's a dope list of moms and is a real bummer it had to be trashed. Wish more people were selling cuts to spread the love of the plant vs making money.
 

SCJedi

Well-Known Member
I don't see anything silly about it. The same company that helped to spread it is now charging to help eradicate what they spread. They profited from selling infected clones and now they're profiting from treating the same strains that they spread around.

As far as them writing the white paper, yes they wrote a paper but they don't have any actual white paper. If they do then please provide a link to that white paper as nobody has been able to provide one to date.

Also HPLVD was identified prior to their identification so they are not the entity that discovered it.

As for folks being decimated by it then the best solution is to switch genetics. There are growers that have clean plants so there is no need to obtain genetics from outfits that are known to have spread it in the first place as it's not 100% that their treatment actually completely eradicates it and it can apparently resurface.

As for the difference between a small tent grow like I have or a $2 million operation I see no relevance. My tent grow is more important to me than some commercial operation. You take a risk with any agricultural crop. They chose to farm a crop. Crop failures happen all across the agricultural industry. That's just a risk you take. And a reason many of us have no interest in commercial growing. I have no more concern for a large commercial operation than I do with some grower just growing a few plants for their personal consumption. Neither of which have no effect on me.

The solution is simple. Start with new genetics that are not affected and avoid outfits that have been spreading it and move on.

One of the reason people like myself mainly grow for preservation purposes is because we understand that saving landrace genetics and some of the classic strains is more important for the long term preservation of the plant than chasing some latest "Strain". Any plant that undergoes the extensive inbreeding that cannabis has in the last couple of decades is going to be more prone to succumbing to various diseases.

If HPLVD is as bad a threat as you and others are making it out to be it's a man made threat.
First, I want to make sure that I'm clear by stating that I'm not a DHN fan boy. Have I used their diagnostic services? Sure. Did I see there clones all over the SF Bay for years? Sure. Did they help populate hplvd? It appears that way but they were also one of the only major nurseries bere for a long time. The truth is that a lot of nurseries probably pass it around. You make it sound like "It's all DHN's fault" and that really is subjective. If we all die in a nuclear holocaust its not the fault of a single scientist. I still agree that it's ironic they are doing TC to help remediate a problem they participated in, but there are tons of us doing this work now. If it's a trust thing then just walk away from them or don't click their ads.

I also don't recall stating that hplvd was discovered by DHN. I think they published a layman's summary of findings in what they call a white paper but yes, it reads more like an ad for TC services. Before we knew what holvd was we used to call moms "dudded" or "tired" and often ditched perfectly good genetics because we thought they were not repairable.

The fact is that people that share clones can and do spread it. In fact, because of its latent tendencies, most people will spread it because a far majority of people are sloppy propagators, period. Same pair of scissors, going from mom to mom to mom, all clones in the same aerocloner, etc. Bad news.

Your suggested solution of switching genetics due to infection is pretty absurd. Win grape farmers don't ditch prized clones because it gets a virus. They excise meristems and eliminate it. Advanced botany. A mountain that has grown the same cultivars for decades should just burn it all down because someone brought a viroid in? That like saying kill Uncle Bill because he has AIDS and we can just go get a new uncle. No, treat Uncle Bill and help him thrive. Everyone loves what Uncle Bill brings to the game. You just typed about how precious your tent grow is. Everything has different value to different people. If you don't see the value of the cost that TC provides, don't pay it. If it's just that you hate DHN, then use other's services. Or better yet, throw your plants away and switch genetics.

I pointed out the large dudded field just to point out that I've seen what hplvd does at scale. Like I said, it was more than just a pinch to this farm, but it's still like watching your prized tent mom dud out. It's that same viroid and we get the same deleterious effects.

So, outside of DHN, which potentially/unknowingly spread hplvd, perhaps you could provide a list of the other nurseries known to be spreading hplvd so people can avoid them. ?
 

Attachments

xtsho

Well-Known Member
First, I want to make sure that I'm clear by stating that I'm not a DHN fan boy. Have I used their diagnostic services? Sure. Did I see there clones all over the SF Bay for years? Sure. Did they help populate hplvd? It appears that way but they were also one of the only major nurseries bere for a long time. The truth is that a lot of nurseries probably pass it around. You make it sound like "It's all DHN's fault" and that really is subjective. If we all die in a nuclear holocaust its not the fault of a single scientist. I still agree that it's ironic they are doing TC to help remediate a problem they participated in, but there are tons of us doing this work now. If it's a trust thing then just walk away from them or don't click their ads.

I also don't recall stating that hplvd was discovered by DHN. I think they published a layman's summary of findings in what they call a white paper but yes, it reads more like an ad for TC services. Before we knew what holvd was we used to call moms "dudded" or "tired" and often ditched perfectly good genetics because we thought they were not repairable.

The fact is that people that share clones can and do spread it. In fact, because of its latent tendencies, most people will spread it because a far majority of people are sloppy propagators, period. Same pair of scissors, going from mom to mom to mom, all clones in the same aerocloner, etc. Bad news.

Your suggested solution of switching genetics due to infection is pretty absurd. Win grape farmers don't ditch prized clones because it gets a virus. They excise meristems and eliminate it. Advanced botany. A mountain that has grown the same cultivars for decades should just burn it all down because someone brought a viroid in? That like saying kill Uncle Bill because he has AIDS and we can just go get a new uncle. No, treat Uncle Bill and help him thrive. Everyone loves what Uncle Bill brings to the game. You just typed about how precious your tent grow is. Everything has different value to different people. If you don't see the value of the cost that TC provides, don't pay it. If it's just that you hate DHN, then use other's services. Or better yet, throw your plants away and switch genetics.

I pointed out the large dudded field just to point out that I've seen what hplvd does at scale. Like I said, it was more than just a pinch to this farm, but it's still like watching your prized tent mom dud out. It's that same viroid and we get the same deleterious effects.

So, outside of DHN, which potentially/unknowingly spread hplvd, perhaps you could provide a list of the other nurseries known to be spreading hplvd so people can avoid them. ?
I don't have a list or know what nurseries are spreading it. But if I was a commercial grower that stood to lose "Millions" of dollars I would not use anything from any nurseries. If it was that serious I'd avoid them all. It's not that difficult to produce clones. Maybe these commercial growers should start setting up their own nurseries using good stock and avoid the possibility that they'll lose an entire crop. There are commercial growers that do just that.

Cannabis is not grapes either. There are 23,570 strains listed on seedfinder and that isn't all of them. Much more than grape varieties. And out of those 23,570 strains a good percentage are going to be so similar that the consumer can't even tell the difference. That's not the same with grapes. There may be 10,000 varieties of grapes but only a few are used commercially for producing wine and each of those are pretty distinct and produce very different wines while with cannabis people may know of a bunch of different names but would not be able to distinguish between one or the other which makes it easy for cannabis growers to switch the strains they grow. You can't do that with grapes. A wine like a Cabernet is distinct and must be made with Cabernet grapes.

Another thing some of these commercial growers should do is invest a couple thousand dollars in equipment and supplies and do their own meristem cultures which is not as difficult as these cannabis nurseries and all the places popping up offering the services make it seem.

I also see that you yourself are doing meristem cultures so I'm wondering if you have a financial interest in treatment over cull and kill.


If you do then good for you. If people would rather pay for treatment rather than the simple solution I proposed then it's their money to spend.
 

SCJedi

Well-Known Member
To each their own, brother. Some people throw out the baby with the bath water, some don't.

I don't have a vested interest in any other then my businesses and sharing knowledge.

Yes, I teach tissue culture classes in Northern California and perform tissue culture services. I'd much rather teach the science and let people do it on their own.

Be well and happy holidays.
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
Less is more, you want to cut to oxidize and you will see a hard white crust develope that is the plants way of closing the wound entirely natural.

Cuts need to stay turgid during this so don't pick weak stemmed cuts pick branches that have more developed structure.

When this happens in a high humidity enviroment, but low water content in the container like 5-10 ml at any time but not completely soaked, it will lead to roots air layering within 10-14 days.

Try it out with branches you prune off(free teaters), prunned up with full leaves
@Samwell Seed Well Well... I think I just accomplished my first ever (cannabis) clone! Took your advise and popped it in a plant starter plug, don't know how much of it sitting in a water bottle helped or hindered it's progress, but, after 3-5 days in this plug...she rooted.
2021-12-27 16.33.43.jpg2021-12-27 09.18.18.jpg
 

Samwell Seed Well

Well-Known Member

Samwell Seed Well

Well-Known Member
When I get my plants big enough ill do some time lapse videos of this branch clone process great for cloning moms, will work like air layers on bigger then usual stems or woodier then optimal... great for old moms and all that

All about turning a loss into a win. 1000.ways to grow a plant optimally depending on what you are willing or unwilling to do.
 
Top