Conservatives programed to trigger at words "Black Lives Matter" by Russian trolls.

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Uh huh. My point was BLM has some Commie right under the surface.
Because you said so?

Do you think Lebron James is going to willingly give up his millions ?
Is that something you think should happen?

I guess maybe as he spends it, that he is willingly giving them up. So sure.

Protest police brutality = good.
Nope.

Rich millionaire athletes wearing commie gear is ironic and is a form of ironic ignorance.
And you circle back around to basing something on something you said, but haven't actually based that on anything other than your feelings.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I quite clearly stated blm's "racism" and vegans "suffering", etc. Have NO meaning. I never claimed they were lying or stupid.

Please if I have misrepresented them in some way, tell me exactly what vegans mean by "ending suffering", what their goals, what metrics they use to measure progress are and what the concrete steps to achieve those goals are.
Why are you hung up on the terminology of 'BLM'? Is it that you think all of the protests are that occurred this year will fit into one organization?

As above. Is there some place online where blm defines racism, lists the metrics they use to measure progress and state exactly what they hope to achieve?

Has nothing about my liking it. Post what /they/ like and think so people can respond to it. If racism is really a bunch of sub issues grouped (valid interpretation), they should have no problem outlining them, and telling us what they want exactly instead if hiding all these things behind the opaque box of "ending racism"

Re blm and treating blacks differently: so affirmative action (discrimination against non blacks), and reparations are about treating people the same? Ignoring the gun crime epidemic and pulling the desperately needed police from black neighbourhoods specifically is treating people the same. How come black on black murders don't deserve justice or media reporting? This is treating people equally? Some worldview you have.
This again gets into the real propaganda of what it is that people want you to believe about the necessary improvements we need to make in order for our minority communities to get to have the same ability to achieve success that the white suburban communities have.

This is the same small understanding that led to Trump and his racist minions in the executive branch to rip babies from their parents arms and not provide them mental care, which they will now need their entire lives as Trump's racist policies will ruin a lot of lives before they ever had a chance to do anything with them.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
https://apnews.com/article/race-and-ethnicity-police-misinformation-iowa-city-iowa-8dc0afce2ce6b60dbaa0d1d9c53ce1e3
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IOWA CITY, Iowa (AP) — A prominent law enforcement training group is promoting a lengthy research document riddled with falsehoods and conspiracies that urges local police to treat Black Lives Matter activists as terrorists plotting a violent revolution.

The document distributed by the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association contains misinformation and inflammatory rhetoric that could incite officers against protesters and people of color, critics said. It alleges Black Lives Matter and antifa, an umbrella term for leftist militants, are “revolutionary movements whose aims are to overthrow the U.S. government” and claims they are planning “extreme violence.”

Phillip Atiba Goff, a Yale University professor who is an expert on racial bias in policing, called the document dangerous, noting that the association is an important source of training materials for many small and midsize departments across the country.

“It’s stunning. It’s distressing in many ways. It’s untethered to reality,” said Goff, CEO of the Center for Policing Equity. “I worry that it leads to people dying unnecessarily.”

The association in October sent a link to the 176-page paper, “Understanding Antifa and Urban Guerrilla Warfare,” in an email news update to its thousands of members. The document, labeled “restricted to law enforcement only,” is one of the few publicly available materials on its website. The Associated Press learned of the document from one of the policing organization’s members.

The group’s executive director, Harvey Hedden, defended the document, which he called one member’s opinion and open for critique and debate. He said the association supports the exchange of ideas and strategies to improve criminal justice training but does not endorse specific approaches.

Hedden argued that fact-checking the paper or restricting its distribution would amount to censorship and that its publication would allow for peer review by other trainers.

“There will always be differences of opinion on training issues but so long as the disagreements remain professional and not personal we do not censor these ideas,” he said. “I am willing to allow the trainer to evaluate the information themselves.”

He added, “Just like law enforcement, I am afraid BLM has earned some of these criticisms and others might be overgeneralizations.”

The Black Lives Matter movement emerged in 2013 after the acquittal of the Florida man who fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, and exploded in size and influence earlier this year after the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis police custody. Protests across the nation were largely peaceful but occasionally marked by clashes with police or the destruction of property. Since then, many activists have been working to reduce the scope and cost of local police departments and overhaul police training.

The law enforcement association, known by its nickname ILEETA, says in a mission statement that it’s “committed to the reduction of law enforcement risk” and saving lives through high-quality training. The association promotes its annual conference, set for St. Louis this coming March, as the “largest gathering of law enforcement trainers in the world.” It publishes a research journal, provides other educational and training materials and operates a Facebook page for members to network and share ideas.

An official with Color of Change, a nationwide racial justice organization, called on police departments Wednesday to cut training ties with the association, saying it encourages a warrior-style mindset that creates more conflict in communities.

“This is disturbing to read but not at all surprising to me. This is the type of thinking that is sadly pretty prominent within police culture,” said Scott Roberts, its senior director of criminal justice campaigns.

Goff said police executives with whom he’s discussed the document this week were “disturbed by it.” He and others said it was irresponsible for the group to promote the paper.

“This document is below the belt because of how much misinformation there is, how many conspiracy theories there are, how much violence it promotes and how many reasons it gives to justify dehumanizing people,” said Sherice Nelson, assistant professor of political science at Southern University and A&M College who studies Black political movements.

She said the paper repeatedly promotes “wildly outlandish” claims about Black Lives Matter, shows cultural ignorance by falsely conflating the movement with antifa, and primes officers to use force by painting both as terrorists plotting to kill police.

Among its many unsupported claims is that the two movements have “trained, dedicated snipers” stationed in certain cities, are fronts for Russia and China, and planned attacks before and after last month’s presidential election.

The paper claims that those who participated in months of protests earlier this year in Portland and Seattle were “useful idiots” designed to give cover to the “hard-core, terrorist trained troops” that would follow. “Extreme acts of violence are expected and called for,” the document warns.

The paper claims that military officials who served in Iraq and Afghanistan are concerned about the movements because they “have witnessed these types of terrorist groups organizing, creating insurgencies and the horrible consequences of it.”

The FBI is largely “clueless” about the nature of their threat and, along with the news media, has wrongly focused attention on violence carried out by white supremacists, it argues.

Goff, whose group works with departments to make policing “less racist and deadly,” said the document showed why it’s important for critics to engage directly with local law enforcement to seek changes.

Otherwise, he said, “you are abandoning that profession to the worst impulses of this country.”
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hanimmal

Well-Known Member
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/12/15/dc-metropolitan-ame-church-vandalized-blm-sign/
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The Rev. William H. Lamar IV is the pastor of the Metropolitan African Methodist Episcopal Church in Washington.

Do you hear what I hear? I hear the imperial American myth in the throes of its own death rattle. And I hear a people clamoring for a story by which to order their lives.

The United States does not like to call itself an empire. But it is. Through military and economic force, the United States extends its narrative, politics and culture throughout the globe for good and for ill. The American story to which I refer does not shape our domestic life alone. It shapes the world.

Myths, stories, give our lives meaning. They tell us who we were, who we are and who we will be.

The myth of the American imperium is deeply rooted in falsehoods and forgetfulness, in intentional historical amnesia and obfuscation. Liberty was not the founding American impulse; genocide was. The blessing of God did not secure this nation’s prosperity. The forced labor of my ancestors did. The founders were not committed to a republic or a democracy. They were committed to a racialized plutocracy led by propertied White males.

Everyone else was excluded by law, custom and violence.

A sign came down on Saturday. The Black Lives Matter banner in front of Metropolitan African Methodist Episcopal Church, where I am privileged to serve as pastor, was removed and destroyed on Saturday evening. I am deeply disturbed by this incident (one of several incidents targeting houses of worship), but I am more disturbed by the continued mythology of imperial America. This mythology supports those who commit violence against human beings for political ends, deny citizens their right to vote, denigrate sacred spaces and claim as their own whatever they survey.

It mattered not that the land was ours. It mattered not that the sign was ours. The mythology that motivated the perpetrators on Saturday night was the underbelly of the American narrative — that White men can employ violence to take what they want and do what they want and call that criminality justice, freedom and liberty.

That is the history written into this nation, into the bodies of those brutalized by this mythology, and carried forth in this moment by human beings who have been malformed by a story of scarcity that precludes their own flourishing and the flourishing of others.

The world’s empires have all fallen upon the ash heap of history. Only ideologues believe that the American empire will last forever. The death rattle gets louder with every frivolous lawsuit that seeks to overturn the election, with every conspiracy theory that gains purchase, with every refusal to protect the vulnerable from the coronavirus unless corporations are protected first. The political imagination of this entire nation is captive to a white-supremacist myth.
Only a new narrative can change the way we order this society.

This new narrative must question everything if we are serious about imagining a better world. The media, academia and religious institutions alike often behave as if American capitalism was decreed by the divine. The economic infrastructure of this nation generates inhumane inequality. Religious fundamentalists believe in individual sin while turning a blind eye to the sinfulness of an economic system that forces working people to pay more of their income in taxes while refusing to pay them living wages, that deprives them of health care and humane retirements. And all this happens while the rich grow richer.

Those who ripped down our sign — whether they are aware of it or not — suffer from kleptocratic, crony capitalism in the United States. What they really want is a new narrative and a new politics. What we must do is the hard work of creating this new narrative — one that tells a true story of humans thriving together and sharing the abundance of the land and their labor.

As a preacher, I view what happened in the yard of our church as a showdown between the God of the universe, the God of all people, the God incarnate in Jesus Christ, and the god of white supremacy.

One God is for all. The other god is for some. One God has chosen humanity. The other god has chosen whiteness, imperialism and human subjugation.

The men and women who founded the African Methodist Episcopal Church knew and were known by the God of all people. Metropolitan is rooted in this theological vision that humankind is one family. There have been outposts of resistance to the god of white supremacy from the beginning. These institutions must lead the way toward a new narrative. And white-supremacist institutions must assume the role of student, not teacher.

The United States of America must abandon this god, this story and the violence that flows from fidelity to the same.

A sign came down on Saturday. Metropolitan will replace the sign.

Will the United States replace the story that makes such acts of desecration inevitable?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Of course
Because you said so?


Is that something you think should happen?

I guess maybe as he spends it, that he is willingly giving them up. So sure.


Nope.


And you circle back around to basing something on something you said, but haven't actually based that on anything other than your feelings.
Lebron James should be able to what he wants with his money. It's his life and his money. Not for me or anyone but Lebron to decide what he does with his stash.

Sometimes it's hard to know what to believe, but I am under the impression at least some of the BLM people are communists or lean hard in that direction. Is that inaccurate ?

My point was most NBA players aren't communists. Even the lowest paid guys in the NBA are usually getting millions. To wear BLM gear
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Of course


Lebron James should be able to what he wants with his money. It's his life and his money. Not for me or anyone but Lebron to decide what he does with his stash.
ok.

Sometimes it's hard to know what to believe, but I am under the impression at least some of the BLM people are communists or lean hard in that direction. Is that inaccurate ?
I don't know, what exactly do you mean by 'BLM' people'?

When I use it (outside of explaining the propaganda attack using the term as a trigger phrase), I mean the millions of people out protesting police/societal brutality that has been perpetrated on our minority communities, and most noticeable in the over-policed black cities that have been systematically kept out of the greater wealth building opportunities until far too recently.

I don't think that there is a box that anyone ticks to determine which bullshit economic ideology to pretend like they are apart of enough to brand themselves as.

My point was most NBA players aren't communists. Even the lowest paid guys in the NBA are usually getting millions. To wear BLM gear
I still don't know what you mean by 'communists'. And I still don't know why it matters if they support police not killing black people.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
ok.


I don't know, what exactly do you mean by 'BLM' people'?

When I use it (outside of explaining the propaganda attack using the term as a trigger phrase), I mean the millions of people out protesting police/societal brutality that has been perpetrated on our minority communities, and most noticeable in the over-policed black cities that have been systematically kept out of the greater wealth building opportunities until far too recently.

I don't think that there is a box that anyone ticks to determine which bullshit economic ideology to pretend like they are apart of enough to brand themselves as.


I still don't know what you mean by 'communists'. And I still don't know why it matters if they support police not killing black people.
Maybe fixing the definition of what "BLM" (black lives matter) is would be a good approach.

Isn't there an organization that calls itself black lives matter that has some commie connections etc.? (serious question) That was what I was referring to as ironic for NBA players to be supporting, since NBA players are capitalists, not communists.

If you're talking about people protesting police brutality, I support that. I have no use for police brutality or for the entire present day policing model and think it needs to be privatized. It is LITERALLY impossible for police to "protect" people if they are involuntarily funded and have legal immunity for their fuckups.

I have no problem with people that want to be communists as long as they gain membership thru voluntary means. But we know that isn't how most Communism works.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Maybe fixing the definition of what "BLM" (black lives matter) is would be a good approach.
I agree, which is why I am pointing out in this thread that the Russian military has been using it to radicalize 'conservatives' using repetitive branding when they troll them.

If you look it up on youtube, for example, you get a ton of propaganda videos painting it as a radical movement rioting in the streets.

Isn't there an organization that calls itself black lives matter that has some commie connections etc.? (serious question) That was what I was referring to as ironic for NBA players to be supporting, since NBA players are capitalists, not communists.
I think it is a similar thing to calling any tissue paper 'kleenex' or any tape 'scotch tape'. Someone a while back posted something about someone they said was a criminal that ended up being on the board or some other 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon to a 'Black Lives Matter worldwide' company, but this doesn't mean it really has anything to do with the greater movement.

It is kind of the opposite of the Koch Bros funding the 'Tea Party' protests, they tried to keep their names out of it but it was a astroturf movement. The protests this last year were sparked by desperation after a cop killed/lynched George Floyd and years of having the very real videos of police brutality pushed online for years after hundreds of years of systemic suppression of these communities.

Im not sure how extremely talented people, many of whom grew up in these communities, finding their voice to support the people protesting has anything to do with someone in some organization that may or may not be a 'communist'.

If you're talking about people protesting police brutality, I support that. I have no use for police brutality or for the entire present day policing model and think it needs to be privatized. It is LITERALLY impossible for police to "protect" people if they are involuntarily funded and have legal immunity for their fuckups.
That is literally what it is about.

I am not a fan of privatization of it, because that would just mean that people with money hire people to protect their shit leaving everyone else exposed. Im sure there may be some way around it, but that would take some kind of greater agreement among the population, and that is basically all government is anyways so it wouldn't really change anything.

I have no problem with people that want to be communists as long as they gain membership thru voluntary means. But we know that isn't how most Communism works.
I think the brand names are all bullshit. The world is too complex for it to fit into any neat little box.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
some kind of greater agreement among the population, and that is basically all government is anyways so it wouldn't really change anything.
No offense, but this ^^^^^^ is demonstrably false and wishful thinking.

If government were about "agreements" it wouldn't be government, it would be Voluntaryism (most people are too intellectually lazy to find out what Voluntaryism actually is).

Voluntaryism, is based on ACTUAL agreements between the individuals involved, as long as what is agreed to is about those individuals and their property etc.

A democracy, assumes consent when none is actually given and is foisted on others whether they like it or not. That's not a real agreement. Democracies very often tread on rights, voluntaryism doesn't, it honors rights and doesn't assume consent.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I am not a fan of privatization
The divide isn't "public vs private". The divide is "voluntary" vs "involuntary".

It is undeniable that governments assume consent when in many instances none is actually given. That makes their operational means involuntary and reliant on force. That is wrong. It shouldn't be overlooked, which nearly all government apologists are guilty of.

When I say voluntary, I don't mean "free" , I mean mutual and consensual, it could be free or it could be an agreed to exchange, the key element is none of the participants to an agreement are coerced to fund an idea.

That doesn't mean actual charity is disallowed though. Private charity is real. "Public charity" is not, because it has the same operational means as theft. Forced redistribution of others property isn't charity, it's theft.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
No offense, but this ^^^^^^ is demonstrably false and wishful thinking.

If government were about "agreements" it wouldn't be government, it would be Voluntaryism (most people are too intellectually lazy to find out what Voluntaryism actually is).

Voluntaryism, is based on ACTUAL agreements between the individuals involved, as long as what is agreed to is about those individuals and their property etc.

A democracy, assumes consent when none is actually given and is foisted on others whether they like it or not. That's not a real agreement. Democracies very often tread on rights, voluntaryism doesn't, it honors rights and doesn't assume consent.
Fine, you win.

Out of everything else that we almost got through talking about, you find one obscure thing to fault and focus on.

Which you then go onto ignore everything else about the actual problems being discussed with the conservative understanding of the BLM movement because I don't have whatever definition you are using for whatever it is you are wanting to focus on. I wish we could find some utopian way to keep one another safe from the very real bat shit crazy people who would do violence, but I doubt I know enough to agree or disagree with what you are saying.

The divide isn't "public vs private". The divide is "voluntary" vs "involuntary".

It is undeniable that governments assume consent when in many instances none is actually given. That makes their operational means involuntary and reliant on force. That is wrong. It shouldn't be overlooked, which nearly all government apologists are guilty of.

When I say voluntary, I don't mean "free" , I mean mutual and consensual, it could be free or it could be an agreed to exchange, the key element is none of the participants to an agreement are coerced to fund an idea.

That doesn't mean actual charity is disallowed though. Private charity is real. "Public charity" is not, because it has the same operational means as theft. Forced redistribution of others property isn't charity, it's theft.
Seems pretty in the weeds and basically just going to be me rehashing the last point.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Out of everything else that we almost got through talking about, you find one obscure thing to fault and focus on.
Not obscure. It's pertinent to the reason why people were protesting. They were protesting police, right?

You can't have a police force provide protection from "people who might steal from you" , if the police force itself is funded involuntarily. That is impossible and fraught with obvious contradiction. The present policing model doesn't need fixing, it needs to be abolished and replaced with a competitive free market in security / policing. Competition among service providers is what drives good service.

As far as "conservatives" harshing on blm etc. I agree conservatives are nearly as inconsistent and irrational as liberals. Glad I'm neither.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Not obscure. It's pertinent to the reason why people were protesting. They were protesting police, right?

You can't have a police force provide protection from "people who might steal from you" , if the police force itself is funded involuntarily. That is impossible and fraught with obvious contradiction. The present policing model doesn't need fixing, it needs to be abolished and replaced with a competitive free market in security / policing. Competition among service providers is what drives good service.

As far as "conservatives" harshing on blm etc. I agree conservatives are nearly as inconsistent and irrational as liberals. Glad I'm neither.
Your both sides troll is completely predictable.

You lose me with your narrow definitions that are not representative of the entirety of what the police are. And then you go ito your free market troll which is only going to end up with the wealthiest having the ability to protect themselves and is not something that works with public services.

Until the trolling ends all you are doing is calling people names and pretending like you are above it when you are doing the exact shit that the Russian military is doing in their attacks on our society, which I why I don't trust your motives.

The problem is that police have been radicalized and infiltrated by bad actors looking to take out their prejudices on our minority communities, and the Russian military has used this very real problem to segregate our societies and whip them up into a frenzy and then point them at each other.

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hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Blm and antifa has caused more division than the white supremecists ever dreamed up.
The Russian military has been using this branding to attack us for a long time. It is only people that are falling for the propaganda that they get spammed to them online that has caused them to divide themselves up.
 

SaltyCracker

Well-Known Member
The Russian military has been using this branding to attack us for a long time. It is only people that are falling for the propaganda that they get spammed to them online that has caused them to divide themselves up.
No its a left tactic. A CCP tactic. I dont doubt russians do it too. But not on the scale the chinese have. Ccp owns our education system, hollywood, the left..and thats the short list
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
No its a left tactic. A CCP tactic. I dont doubt russians do it too. But not on the scale the chinese have. Ccp owns our education system, hollywood, the left..and thats the short list
I call bullshit.

You are given evidence from the Republican led senate confirming that the Russain military has been using the exact terms of Black lives Matter to radicalize 'conservatives' against the Democrats, and you pull out a 'but China' and a bullshit attempt to tie it to 'the left'.

You are just another in the endless lines of Trump trolls.

You do know that there is a Chinese cult all in on Trump too? Could be that you are with them with how ridiculously transparent your trolls for Trump are becoming.
 
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