Converting from synthetic line - need recommendations

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
They are stark differences between growing in living soil and using "organic" nutrients. Don't want to steer you wrong. Sounds like you are happy with the result you get from the EJ line so use as you have been doing. I'm just saying look at the npk values of what you give them. If it's higher than 5 it can diminish microbial activity. Using it lightly could help but if you are not growing in an active living soil anyway it doesn't really matter.

Soil doesn't go bad you can just keep on re-amending it for eternity. You can always revert to a nutrient if your plants get hungry in mid flower but like I said spikes feed them for weeks. Check out Jobes organic spikes. I would give them liquid fish / seaweed weekly until your mix gets up to supernatural status. Then you can just give them water. It takes several recycles to get there. Just keep on adding in worm castings as a top dress or in the mix globally. Worm teas can help prolong the efficacy of your mix into bloom phase. If they look hungry very late in bloom just give water until harvest time. It's ok if they are turning colors in the final weeks.
Thanks. I'm trying to create a more living soil. I just amended some of my old soil with a bunch of Build a Soil stuff and it's cooking until I'm ready to start another round. I'm trying to eventually cut out the bottled nutes, but don't think I'm ready yet skill wise to go completely without them.
 

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
Would adding used coffee grounds benefit? My girlfriend works at a coffee shop and gets me used coffee grounds for soil a lot
Yes. But they must be composted first. You can add in small amounts when you amend/recycle the soil but it still needs to be broken down first in order to become available to your plants. Also add in any cannabis material from harvest like fan leaves or sifted trims.I add all my spend coffee grounds to my worm bin. It is a good form of N once decomposed. Huge benefit of having a worm bin is literally feeding your plants decomposing kitchen scraps.
 

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
Thanks. I'm trying to create a more living soil. I just amended some of my old soil with a bunch of Build a Soil stuff and it's cooking until I'm ready to start another round. I'm trying to eventually cut out the bottled nutes, but don't think I'm ready yet skill wise to go completely without them.
Doesn't require much skill just a good source of compost and preferably clean water. Not saying you can't do it with tap water it's just much easier to maintain living soil with a non chlorinated water source.
When I started out turning my regular soil into a "water only" living soil I learned my tap water was loaded with chloramine which most most municipal water systems now use. Also learned it cannot be bubbled to remove it. Started using dehumidifier water because I was literally dumping it down the drain every day anyway. It never occurred to me it was good for watering plants. Silly me. Works flawlessly. I still collect local spring water and rain but switching to a non chlorinated water source was the first revelation.
Having access to compost is another. Whether you just have a compost pile out back, a worm bin, a bokashi bucket, bags of store bought ewc, or what have you doesn't matter. You need active compost to make the soil alive. Keep adding in fresh compost as a top dress or directly in the mix; you won't need those bottles for long.
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
Doesn't require much skill just a good source of compost and preferably clean water. Not saying you can't do it with tap water it's just much easier to maintain living soil with a non chlorinated water source.
When I started out turning my regular soil into a "water only" living soil I learned my tap water was loaded with chloramine which most most municipal water systems now use. Also learned it cannot be bubbled to remove it. Started using dehumidifier water because I was literally dumping it down the drain every day anyway. It never occurred to me it was good for watering plants. Silly me. Works flawlessly. I still collect local spring water and rain but switching to a non chlorinated water source was the first revelation.
Having access to compost is another. Whether you just have a compost pile out back, a worm bin, a bokashi bucket, bags of store bought ewc, or what have you doesn't matter. You need active compost to make the soil alive. Keep adding in fresh compost as a top dress or directly in the mix; you won't need those bottles for long.
I've just been using my well water that usually reads about 7.8 ph or so coming out. Haven't made a worm bin yet, but have been using EWC since day 1, and just started using some of the B.A.S. vermicompost. I actually took the filter off my watering pump to suck up a bunch more of the stuff from the tea instead of filtering out the EWC. I haven't been using a bag to hold them either, I just throw em in the tub. The pumps are cheap, so I don't care if I burn one out, but it's been going strong for a year now. I figured they are kinda getting top dressed a bit with each tea watering. I do have a layer of EWC on top too under some rice hulls. Thanks again for your help. I am really glad to find out about the npk levels being too high and killing the soil life. Now that I know that, I will try and keep em all below 5 when I use it.
 

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
I've just been using my well water that usually reads about 7.8 ph or so coming out. Haven't made a worm bin yet, but have been using EWC since day 1, and just started using some of the B.A.S. vermicompost. I actually took the filter off my watering pump to suck up a bunch more of the stuff from the tea instead of filtering out the EWC. I haven't been using a bag to hold them either, I just throw em in the tub. The pumps are cheap, so I don't care if I burn one out, but it's been going strong for a year now. I figured they are kinda getting top dressed a bit with each tea watering. I do have a layer of EWC on top too under some rice hulls. Thanks again for your help. I am really glad to find out about the npk levels being too high and killing the soil life. Now that I know that, I will try and keep em all below 5 when I use it.
You probably don't even need those EJ bottles anymore. Consider replacing with a dry fertilizer like say chicken manure & top dress with that along with some kelp and/or fish bone meal.
Teas help keep the microbial party rocking. I don't bother filtering the compost material either; it's better to just drop it in the bucket and let it bubble freely like you do. Use the sludge left over in the bottom to put on recycling soil or a compost pile.
It's the fungal life that really gets upset with high value npk inputs. I once bought a bloom booster that was something like 10-30-20. PK boost it was called I think and was suggested for my first attempt at an organic grow by a hydro store moron. Anyway two days after I gave it to the plants it looked like a severe ph imbalance. Yellow splotches on the fans, unhappy plants. People on here told me at the time it was an insect problem but it wasn't. It took weeks to reverse itself and the solution was just water. Myco fungi absorbs nutrients from the soil. Not trying to say you are doing anything detrimental with earth juice products just be wary of what you are giving them. Check the labels for npk values.
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
You probably don't even need those EJ bottles anymore. Consider replacing with a dry fertilizer like say chicken manure & top dress with that along with some kelp and/or fish bone meal.
Teas help keep the microbial party rocking. I don't bother filtering the compost material either; it's better to just drop it in the bucket and let it bubble freely like you do. Use the sludge left over in the bottom to put on recycling soil or a compost pile.
It's the fungal life that really gets upset with high value npk inputs. I once bought a bloom booster that was something like 10-30-20. PK boost it was called I think and was suggested for my first attempt at an organic grow by a hydro store moron. Anyway two days after I gave it to the plants it looked like a severe ph imbalance. Yellow splotches on the fans, unhappy plants. People on here told me at the time it was an insect problem but it wasn't. It took weeks to reverse itself and the solution was just water. Myco fungi absorbs nutrients from the soil. Not trying to say you are doing anything detrimental with earth juice products just be wary of what you are giving them. Check the labels for npk values.
I've been trying to switch to only dry ingredients and have been using the Craft Blend from B.A.S. until I learn more. It has some good stuff in it, and I've had to use a lot less of the bottles lately. I just need more practice with dry amendments.
And ya, I learned that a lot of the hydro shop guys don't know shit, but pretend they do. I know better know not to ask their advice now. And I will be keeping my feedings extra light when I do use Earth Juice. Keeping the levels below 5. Thanks again.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
I've been trying to switch to only dry ingredients and have been using the Craft Blend from B.A.S. until I learn more. It has some good stuff in it, and I've had to use a lot less of the bottles lately. I just need more practice with dry amendments.
And ya, I learned that a lot of the hydro shop guys don't know shit, but pretend they do. I know better know not to ask their advice now. And I will be keeping my feedings extra light when I do use Earth Juice. Keeping the levels below 5. Thanks again.
I'd recommend omitting the EJ entirely unless someone else can confirm that it won't kill the microbes. Otherwise, you'll only need a top dress of organic amendments and compost. The BAS mix is powdered for the most part, so it'll break down quick but not burn due to being light. This, combined with the compost will result in the BAS decomposing fairly quickly and providing nutrient access to your plant a lot sooner than you'd think. On the off chance that I do run into some heavy feeders then I go for Liquid Fish as it's one of the few legit products that come in a bottle due to how their processed. 5-1-1 Fish Emulsion for veg and 2-4-1 Fish Hydrolysate for flower.

As for the NPK levels under 5, I recall Coot's saying the number was 8. He posted about how a P higher than 8 is what causes issues with fungi, mycorrhizae mainly.


I've just been using my well water that usually reads about 7.8 ph or so coming out.
Be very mindful of what makes your well water hard, and how it will react with the soil. I found this one out the hard way myself. Tap water where I used to live was fine, then I moved where I'm at now and used tap as normal. Quality was always there, but yields were shit and there we obvious signs of pH imbalance due to so much being wrong with the plants. I kept chasing ghosts trying to fix it until I noticed scaling at the bottom of my black fabric pots, the same scaling on my faucets. It's pretty much pure calcium, I'm close to a lot of limestone so I was essentially watering with dolomite lime every single time I watered. This, combined with the plethora of calcium inputs in my soil (Oyster Shell Flour, Gypsum, Kelp Meal, Crab Meal) resulted in salt built up.

I did some research into the chemistry of it and it turns out the calcium isn't soluble in water, so as you water the calcium gets left in the soil. Eventually it builds up and wreaks havoc on your pH, similar to adding too much dolomite lime. I made a new batch of soil excluding the 4 aforementioned amendments and used my tap water. My theory was to see if I could use my water as the buffering agent instead of lime/OSF/etc and it turns out I can. Just something for you to keep in mind is all.
 

speakheavy

Member
Yes. But they must be composted first. You can add in small amounts when you amend/recycle the soil but it still needs to be broken down first in order to become available to your plants. Also add in any cannabis material from harvest like fan leaves or sifted trims.I add all my spend coffee grounds to my worm bin. It is a good form of N once decomposed. Huge benefit of having a worm bin is literally feeding your plants decomposing kitchen scraps.
it just occurred to me that jobe's fertilizer spikes are not certified organic, they don't harm the microbes in the soil when you use them?
 

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
https://www.amazon.com/Jobes-Organics-Purpose-Fertilizer-Spikes/dp/B00192ANSW

Says OMRI right on the label. Definitely safe for living soil; have been using these for years.

Copied & pasted from Jobes website...

Ingredients
  • Biozome. Jobe's Biozome® is a combination of healthy bacteria, Mycorrhizal fungi and Archaea.
  • Bone Meal. Rich, natural source of phosphorous and calcium that promotes blooms, fruit and root growth.
  • Feather Meal. ...
  • Potassium (Potash) ...
  • Processed Manure.
Jobe's Company
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
I'd recommend omitting the EJ entirely unless someone else can confirm that it won't kill the microbes. Otherwise, you'll only need a top dress of organic amendments and compost. The BAS mix is powdered for the most part, so it'll break down quick but not burn due to being light. This, combined with the compost will result in the BAS decomposing fairly quickly and providing nutrient access to your plant a lot sooner than you'd think. On the off chance that I do run into some heavy feeders then I go for Liquid Fish as it's one of the few legit products that come in a bottle due to how their processed. 5-1-1 Fish Emulsion for veg and 2-4-1 Fish Hydrolysate for flower.

As for the NPK levels under 5, I recall Coot's saying the number was 8. He posted about how a P higher than 8 is what causes issues with fungi, mycorrhizae mainly.




Be very mindful of what makes your well water hard, and how it will react with the soil. I found this one out the hard way myself. Tap water where I used to live was fine, then I moved where I'm at now and used tap as normal. Quality was always there, but yields were shit and there we obvious signs of pH imbalance due to so much being wrong with the plants. I kept chasing ghosts trying to fix it until I noticed scaling at the bottom of my black fabric pots, the same scaling on my faucets. It's pretty much pure calcium, I'm close to a lot of limestone so I was essentially watering with dolomite lime every single time I watered. This, combined with the plethora of calcium inputs in my soil (Oyster Shell Flour, Gypsum, Kelp Meal, Crab Meal) resulted in salt built up.

I did some research into the chemistry of it and it turns out the calcium isn't soluble in water, so as you water the calcium gets left in the soil. Eventually it builds up and wreaks havoc on your pH, similar to adding too much dolomite lime. I made a new batch of soil excluding the 4 aforementioned amendments and used my tap water. My theory was to see if I could use my water as the buffering agent instead of lime/OSF/etc and it turns out I can. Just something for you to keep in mind is all.
Thanks. That's great to know. I do have a little calcium in my water, by my well is in granite so I don't think there's limestone in it but don't know. My well test had a TDS of 160, hardness 7, ph 7.2, and a trace of iron and nitrates when it was done a few years ago. I was guessing that should be ok.

Also, I just flipped a few days ago, and was wondering what dry amendments you recommend I start using? Craft Blend is like 4-4-2, so I don't know how much longer I should be using it. Thanks again. I actually printed out your post since I don't want forget something I read in it. Don't usually do that.

Update. Instead of giving them Earth Juice tonight, I just top dressed with some Craft Blend and vermicompost and then they got plain water. Making a list of dry amendments to buy at the hydro store now. I have kelp and fish bone meal on it so far. What else should I add to start with?

Sorry speakheavy, Im not trying to hijack your thread, but there is some good info these guys sound like they have to share and want to know more.
 
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MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
Maybe some fish emulsion for a rainy day..
Fish emulsion is some of the worst smelling stuff there is. Plus, there are better ways of using fish like an Fish Amino Acid(FAA) or fish hydrolysate. FAA is a great way of delivering micronutrients, but I mostly use it for a foliar spray. Fish has a lot of phosphorus and it can cause lock-out issues in soil, which is a problem with organic soil. High phosphorus will cause "iron chlorosis" and it will look like N def. The Clackamas Coots method addresses the problem with high P. There are recipes all over the place for it. You can even buy a Clackamas amendment kit from somewhere like Build-A-Soil. This is actually a good link to his recipe too. Scroll down to the info panel on this link, it has the recipe.
https://buildasoil.com/products/buildasoil-nutrient-kit-clackamascoots-style?variant=8754838503541
If you end up getting this kit, then I would also suggest this product from them. I always had micronutrient problems and this really seems to fix it.
https://buildasoil.com/collections/trace-minerals/products/buildasoil-big-6?variant=28311057727572

To go with the amendment kit you would need 1/3 compost, 1/3 peat/coco coir, and 1/3 aeration like pumice or perlite. It sounds like a lot but it is much better than FoxFarm. I never had much luck with FFOF or even Happy Frog. For the compost, it would be best if you start a worm bin because it is the most expensive ingredient on the list and it is the most important. Until you make your own, I would use BioDinamic's Malibu Compost and it has a picture of a cow on a surfboard. You could even mix half worm castings and malibu compost. Hell, you could ditch the amendments and just use the compost and do pretty well.

It's cheaper if you buy everything in bulk individually than buying from BAS, but this will help you get started and uncomplicate things because it is overwhelming trying to buy individual products. It's usually better to buy bulk at your local store anyways because shipping is crazy.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
it just occurred to me that jobe's fertilizer spikes are not certified organic, they don't harm the microbes in the soil when you use them?
For me, when I'm in doubt about something I don't use it. Fertilizer spikes are superfluous anyway. Some people do it, but for me it's just an extra unnecessary step. I only top dress with various Dr Earth blends, then cover with compost. I will water with Fish Hydrolysate or Emulsion if and when I need an extra boost. The issue I have with spikes is that you can potentially risk messing up roots trying to put these "spikes" in your soil. Realistically, one doesn't need to put these amendments into the soil in the form of spikes because simply top dressing will get the nutrients within the soil. When the microbes decompose the amendments the nutrients will either be bonded to the peat moss/coco or will be put close enough to the roots for the plants to absorb. This will happen whether you top dress or use spikes.

What I'd try and emphasize most is that in a living soil, we are taking care of the microbes. Unless the plants need standard pruning/trimming or there's an infestation that you need to spray for, we really don't do much of anything to and for the plant itself. The microbiology/soil will take complete care of your plant. If you're seeing issues with the plant, it's an issue in the soil itself. It's easy to fall into temptation to fix the plant, but in a living soil we are focusing on the soil and not the plant.

Thanks. That's great to know. I do have a little calcium in my water, by my well is in granite so I don't think there's limestone in it but don't know. My well test had a TDS of 160, hardness 7, ph 7.2, and a trace of iron and nitrates when it was done a few years ago. I was guessing that should be ok.

Also, I just flipped a few days ago, and was wondering what dry amendments you recommend I start using? Craft Blend is like 4-4-2, so I don't know how much longer I should be using it. Thanks again. I actually printed out your post since I don't want forget something I read in it. Don't usually do that.

Update. Instead of giving them Earth Juice tonight, I just top dressed with some Craft Blend and vermicompost and then they got plain water. Making a list of dry amendments to buy at the hydro store now. I have kelp and fish bone meal on it so far. What else should I add to start with?

Sorry speakheavy, Im not trying to hijack your thread, but there is some good info these guys sound like they have to share and want to know more.
I'd recommend doing the little experiment I did before I made my new soil. I mixed up my new batch of soil without lime/buffering agent, but didn't put it into pots before I could test how my water would work with it. Normally in living soil, we don't need to focus on pH because the microbes will regulate the pH. However, if we over-water (makes pH acidic), water with water that's "too hard" (raises pH to over 8), or don't add lime to peat (no way to buffer peat) then all of these things can and will negatively affect the pH.

Ideally, we do not have to worry about pH at all because the soil handles that for us. But on occasion there will be a hiccup in the form of overwatering or using "poor" water that results in the pH getting too out of control even for the microbes.

For example, my well water's pH is a whopping 8-8.5pH! My old soil was heavily limed, so watering with 8-8.5pH well water resulted in my soil's pH being 8pH+ and that caused me a whole mess of problems. So I experimented with my next batch. I took some of my newly made soil and soaked it in my well water. After sitting for 5 minutes I drained the water and tested the pH of it. Since the new soil did not have any sort of liming agent or sources of calcium, the pH of my soil was no longer over 8 but became a perfect 6.5pH. I soaked the same soil in RO water from a water machine and the pH was a 4. This confirmed that my water was in fact acting as a buffering agent.

I can't say for sure if your water will react this way, but it wouldn't hurt to experiment like I did. It's much better to know how your water will react with the soil before you plant anything in it!

As for dry amendments during flower I just use Dr Earth's Tomato and Herb blend. Has a 4-6-5 NPK and most of the stuff in there decomposes pretty quick, it's great stuff and cheap too. A $10 bag on Amazon can feed up to 80g of soil, which works for most people. Another option would be to continue using the Craft Blend, but supplement that with some Fish Hydrolysate (2-4-1). It'll provide extra Phosphorus without making your NPK levels too high.

I buy pretty much everything from Amazon, it's usually cheaper and hydro stores just kind of rub me the wrong way. Between Amazon and local hardware stores I haven't set foot into a hydro store in years now.
 

speakheavy

Member
https://www.amazon.com/Jobes-Organics-Purpose-Fertilizer-Spikes/dp/B00192ANSW

Says OMRI right on the label. Definitely safe for living soil; have been using these for years.

Copied & pasted from Jobes website...

Ingredients
  • Biozome. Jobe's Biozome® is a combination of healthy bacteria, Mycorrhizal fungi and Archaea.
  • Bone Meal. Rich, natural source of phosphorous and calcium that promotes blooms, fruit and root growth.
  • Feather Meal. ...
  • Potassium (Potash) ...
  • Processed Manure.
Jobe's Company
For me, when I'm in doubt about something I don't use it. Fertilizer spikes are superfluous anyway. Some people do it, but for me it's just an extra unnecessary step. I only top dress with various Dr Earth blends, then cover with compost. I will water with Fish Hydrolysate or Emulsion if and when I need an extra boost. The issue I have with spikes is that you can potentially risk messing up roots trying to put these "spikes" in your soil. Realistically, one doesn't need to put these amendments into the soil in the form of spikes because simply top dressing will get the nutrients within the soil. When the microbes decompose the amendments the nutrients will either be bonded to the peat moss/coco or will be put close enough to the roots for the plants to absorb. This will happen whether you top dress or use spikes.

What I'd try and emphasize most is that in a living soil, we are taking care of the microbes. Unless the plants need standard pruning/trimming or there's an infestation that you need to spray for, we really don't do much of anything to and for the plant itself. The microbiology/soil will take complete care of your plant. If you're seeing issues with the plant, it's an issue in the soil itself. It's easy to fall into temptation to fix the plant, but in a living soil we are focusing on the soil and not the plant.



I'd recommend doing the little experiment I did before I made my new soil. I mixed up my new batch of soil without lime/buffering agent, but didn't put it into pots before I could test how my water would work with it. Normally in living soil, we don't need to focus on pH because the microbes will regulate the pH. However, if we over-water (makes pH acidic), water with water that's "too hard" (raises pH to over 8), or don't add lime to peat (no way to buffer peat) then all of these things can and will negatively affect the pH.

Ideally, we do not have to worry about pH at all because the soil handles that for us. But on occasion there will be a hiccup in the form of overwatering or using "poor" water that results in the pH getting too out of control even for the microbes.

For example, my well water's pH is a whopping 8-8.5pH! My old soil was heavily limed, so watering with 8-8.5pH well water resulted in my soil's pH being 8pH+ and that caused me a whole mess of problems. So I experimented with my next batch. I took some of my newly made soil and soaked it in my well water. After sitting for 5 minutes I drained the water and tested the pH of it. Since the new soil did not have any sort of liming agent or sources of calcium, the pH of my soil was no longer over 8 but became a perfect 6.5pH. I soaked the same soil in RO water from a water machine and the pH was a 4. This confirmed that my water was in fact acting as a buffering agent.

I can't say for sure if your water will react this way, but it wouldn't hurt to experiment like I did. It's much better to know how your water will react with the soil before you plant anything in it!

As for dry amendments during flower I just use Dr Earth's Tomato and Herb blend. Has a 4-6-5 NPK and most of the stuff in there decomposes pretty quick, it's great stuff and cheap too. A $10 bag on Amazon can feed up to 80g of soil, which works for most people. Another option would be to continue using the Craft Blend, but supplement that with some Fish Hydrolysate (2-4-1). It'll provide extra Phosphorus without making your NPK levels too high.

I buy pretty much everything from Amazon, it's usually cheaper and hydro stores just kind of rub me the wrong way. Between Amazon and local hardware stores I haven't set foot into a hydro store in years now.
Thanks. That's great to know. I do have a little calcium in my water, by my well is in granite so I don't think there's limestone in it but don't know. My well test had a TDS of 160, hardness 7, ph 7.2, and a trace of iron and nitrates when it was done a few years ago. I was guessing that should be ok.

Also, I just flipped a few days ago, and was wondering what dry amendments you recommend I start using? Craft Blend is like 4-4-2, so I don't know how much longer I should be using it. Thanks again. I actually printed out your post since I don't want forget something I read in it. Don't usually do that.

Update. Instead of giving them Earth Juice tonight, I just top dressed with some Craft Blend and vermicompost and then they got plain water. Making a list of dry amendments to buy at the hydro store now. I have kelp and fish bone meal on it so far. What else should I add to start with?

Sorry speakheavy, Im not trying to hijack your thread, but there is some good info these guys sound like they have to share and want to know more.

My fault! I looked at the wrong spikes. Some 10-10-4 synthetic ones which I'm returning. Grabbing the right ones from that Iink. I'm just super paranoid about running out of nutes during flower but I'm sure I'll be fine. I currently have a 5 gal bucket of wiggle worm soil builder worm castings, they were recommended to me on here and had great reviews. I also have an unopened bag of D lime so I may add just a table spoon to the container. Also no need to apologise for hijacking im making use of this great info too haha. Like I said I'll most likely reamend with the coot mineral pack and the same castings after this grow is done. I have a few sample packs of recharge too just for microbe reassurance but ill probably just use one on the initial transplant and not again. How often should I top dress with the castings? I plan to give them liquid kelp and/or Alaska fish emultion once a week with just plain water other than that. I'm thinking I may grab a bag of the Dr Earth tomato and herb blend, I'll hold off on the fish for now as I already have emultion on hand. Also how often would you guys recommend a molasses feed if any is nessesary?
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
My fault! I looked at the wrong spikes. Some 10-10-4 synthetic ones which I'm returning. Grabbing the right ones from that Iink. I'm just super paranoid about running out of nutes during flower but I'm sure I'll be fine. I currently have a 5 gal bucket of wiggle worm soil builder worm castings, they were recommended to me on here and had great reviews. I also have an unopened bag of D lime so I may add just a table spoon to the container. Also no need to apologise for hijacking im making use of this great info too haha. Like I said I'll most likely reamend with the coot mineral pack and the same castings after this grow is done. I have a few sample packs of recharge too just for microbe reassurance but ill probably just use one on the initial transplant and not again. How often should I top dress with the castings? I plan to give them liquid kelp and/or Alaska fish emultion once a week with just plain water other than that. I'm thinking I may grab a bag of the Dr Earth tomato and herb blend, I'll hold off on the fish for now as I already have emultion on hand. Also how often would you guys recommend a molasses feed if any is nessesary?
Absolutely no reason to be paranoid friend! This plant is pretty hard to kill believe it or not. Most plant death is from being loved to death. Out of all of the problems I've ever seen and dealt with personally it has very rarely ever been a true deficiency. I'd say only a handful of times in my experience has the problem ever been "They need more nutrients", you really would be surprised!

A deficiency is one of the easiest problems to fix, however you want to actually confirm it's a deficiency before acting.

Take bad pH for example. Bad pH levels will manifest itself in the form of nutrient deficiencies. But in this case, it isn't because you don't have enough nutrients in your soil. It's because the pH is out of whack and it's locking out access to the nutrients you already have.

Overwatering is another good example. Overwatering will cause the soil to become acidic, which will then cause pH lockout, which then causes "deficiencies".

I suppose the point I'm trying to make here is that "deficiencies" are a symptom of a deeper problem 9/10 times, maybe even 9.5/10 times. If you're seeing a deficiency of some sort, analyze everything else before using nutrients. Make sure you aren't overwatering, or that nothing is screwing with your pH, or you don't have pests/root rot, etc. Only once you've ruled everything else out, then you can add nutrients.

Lack of nutrients will not kill a plant, overreacting to a deficiency will.

Just be cautious my man, you'll be totally fine. Start a grow journal so that way you can get people to help out and chime in. The more input the better imo.



Those worm castings are ones that I have used before in the past. They work, but they're quite mediocre. If you're getting a good deal on it somewhere, then by all means use it. But there are better options, such as Malibu Compost or Coast of Maine's Lobster Compost. These composts cost the same price online as a bag of worm castings, but their quality is vastly superior and it's even a larger quantity to boot. The bags of compost come in 1cuft bags, 1cuft = 7.5g bucket/pot.

Again, please don't take it the wrong way. Those castings are decent and will work, there's just better products out there for the money is all. Most of the worm castings on the market are fed with mostly paper, it does make castings but the quality isn't as high as if the worms were fed quality compost and organic amendments instead. The aforementioned brands of compost on the other hand, are in fact made with quality in mind. You'll notice immediate results using them for sure. Once it comes time to top dress with compost again, consider grabbing come Malibu or Coast of Maine compost instead of more worm castings.

Castings and the compost brands I mentioned are quite light, so you can get away with top dressing every 1-2 weeks once the plants are 1ft tall plus. I just put enough compost on the top to cover the soil so I only see compost. I top dress again once I don't see compost anymore, anywhere between 1-2 weeks for me on average.

I use Recharge often, it's a quality product and comes quite in handy. You'll never overdo it with this stuff because the microbes will sort themselves out. I use Recharge every 1-2 weeks for my plants and for starting new batches of compost/soil. Recharge is essentially a "compost tea" in the sense that it's providing microbes (life) to your soil. The difference is that now you don't need to go through the process of making teas because Recharge simply goes in a 1g jug, shake it, apply. Simple. No need for buckets, teabags, airstones, etc. Simple is key here.

And on the subject of teas, I have always spoken against them personally. They aren't always "bad" but they're superfluous for sure and cause more problems than they solve. When people mention "teas", they mean either compost teas or "nutrient" teas.

Compost teas are usually simple teas made with molasses and compost and/or worm castings in a bucket of aerated water. These are quite redundant and at the expense of extra time and equipment. Why not simply top dress with that compost instead of making a tea out of it? Same thing for a new batch of soil, why not mix the compost into your new batch of soil instead of dunking a tea of it in there? It's never made sense to me, personally. I'm not faulting anyone for doing it by any means, it's just that it is redundant and unnecessary in my experience is all.

All of those nutrients teas you see on the other hand are the real problems. Do not use these under any circumstances. There are numerous reasons to not make a "tea" out of any organic amendments and/or Dr Earth type blends. Let me explain why these teas are dangerous and downright deadly, I've had the pleasure of finding this out the hard way.

Let's use Bat Guano as an example here. You can do one of two things with the guano, top dress with it or make it into a tea. You need to consider that both methods consist of very different reactions and events taking place here, top dressing puts the microbes in charge where as brewing teas turn this into an organic hydro style hybrid grow. Remember earlier when I mentioned that as you top dress with something, the plant's roots will signal to the microbes to start decomposing the top dress right? Guano in this case. When you top dress, the guano will slowly be watered into your soil and decomposed by the microbes according to the plant root's specific needs and requests. The top dress's nutrients will be available gradually, at the plant's discretion.

What happens when you turn the guano into a tea though? These same nutrients become available, immediately and all at once. Instead of the microbes in your soil processing the guano, the microbes in your bucket of aerated water is processing the guano. There's just one problem though, the nutrients in the form of microbe shit are binding to the water and not the soil. This means that all of the nutrients are available immediately instead of over time, and worse off the entire amount is available immediately. So what happens is these "nutrient teas" throw everything out of balance AND cause toxicities if too much guano, alfalfa meal, etc are used. Imagine the guano not taking weeks-months to decompose, but instead is available instantly. Even top dressing with guano can burn plants, making a tea out of it is catastrophic.

I you already have the emulsion, then use it once the plants are over 1ft tall. Emulsion is 5-1-1, so it's best for veg and the 1st week of flower. Hydrolysate is what you want for flower with it's 2-4-1 NPK.

These are just things to keep in mind as you need to top dress and the like in the future. What you already have right now is fine and will work. Just wait until your next top dress is up and grab the higher quality materials as you need them. Sorry about the book, but I hope it's useful.
 

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
Sounds like a plan. Dry amendments like dr earth go much further than you might think. You can top dress with ewc as often as you like; it won't burn even seedlings. Add it at each transplant and maybe every few weeks in bloom. The more you put into your mix directly the less you need to top dress later. I prefer to just put it in your mix real heavy and then forget about it.
Use your molasses in a worm tea; super easy to make. You can just dilute it in water and use it like that but brewing it up in tea gives the most efficacy. Bubble a bucket of water with an air stone and a handful of ewc; add a tblspn of molasses and let it bubble for 24-36 hrs. Adding a tsp or 2 of kelp meal provides probiotics & npk but is optional. Molasses is popular but any form of sucrose will work. I have used pure maple syrup the same way not much difference.
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
For me, when I'm in doubt about something I don't use it. Fertilizer spikes are superfluous anyway. Some people do it, but for me it's just an extra unnecessary step. I only top dress with various Dr Earth blends, then cover with compost. I will water with Fish Hydrolysate or Emulsion if and when I need an extra boost. The issue I have with spikes is that you can potentially risk messing up roots trying to put these "spikes" in your soil. Realistically, one doesn't need to put these amendments into the soil in the form of spikes because simply top dressing will get the nutrients within the soil. When the microbes decompose the amendments the nutrients will either be bonded to the peat moss/coco or will be put close enough to the roots for the plants to absorb. This will happen whether you top dress or use spikes.

What I'd try and emphasize most is that in a living soil, we are taking care of the microbes. Unless the plants need standard pruning/trimming or there's an infestation that you need to spray for, we really don't do much of anything to and for the plant itself. The microbiology/soil will take complete care of your plant. If you're seeing issues with the plant, it's an issue in the soil itself. It's easy to fall into temptation to fix the plant, but in a living soil we are focusing on the soil and not the plant.



I'd recommend doing the little experiment I did before I made my new soil. I mixed up my new batch of soil without lime/buffering agent, but didn't put it into pots before I could test how my water would work with it. Normally in living soil, we don't need to focus on pH because the microbes will regulate the pH. However, if we over-water (makes pH acidic), water with water that's "too hard" (raises pH to over 8), or don't add lime to peat (no way to buffer peat) then all of these things can and will negatively affect the pH.

Ideally, we do not have to worry about pH at all because the soil handles that for us. But on occasion there will be a hiccup in the form of overwatering or using "poor" water that results in the pH getting too out of control even for the microbes.

For example, my well water's pH is a whopping 8-8.5pH! My old soil was heavily limed, so watering with 8-8.5pH well water resulted in my soil's pH being 8pH+ and that caused me a whole mess of problems. So I experimented with my next batch. I took some of my newly made soil and soaked it in my well water. After sitting for 5 minutes I drained the water and tested the pH of it. Since the new soil did not have any sort of liming agent or sources of calcium, the pH of my soil was no longer over 8 but became a perfect 6.5pH. I soaked the same soil in RO water from a water machine and the pH was a 4. This confirmed that my water was in fact acting as a buffering agent.

I can't say for sure if your water will react this way, but it wouldn't hurt to experiment like I did. It's much better to know how your water will react with the soil before you plant anything in it!

As for dry amendments during flower I just use Dr Earth's Tomato and Herb blend. Has a 4-6-5 NPK and most of the stuff in there decomposes pretty quick, it's great stuff and cheap too. A $10 bag on Amazon can feed up to 80g of soil, which works for most people. Another option would be to continue using the Craft Blend, but supplement that with some Fish Hydrolysate (2-4-1). It'll provide extra Phosphorus without making your NPK levels too high.

I buy pretty much everything from Amazon, it's usually cheaper and hydro stores just kind of rub me the wrong way. Between Amazon and local hardware stores I haven't set foot into a hydro store in years now.
What about that Neptune's Harvest Fish and Seaweed (2-3-1). I have some of that now.
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
That works for sure, Neptune's Harvest makes some damn good products and I've used them for years.
I have the Fish 2-4-1 on my list for the hydro store. I'm guessing that would be better in flower since it has a little more P. I've learned not to ask most of the hydro shop people anything. Some are pretty clueless, but I have one a few minutes away, and I get a discount off everything. I just realized they can even get my stuff cheaper from Build A Soil if they order it for me. I got like 20 lbs of BAS rice hulls for $16, so now I'm pretty happy with them.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
I have the Fish 2-4-1 on my list for the hydro store. I'm guessing that would be better in flower since it has a little more P. I've learned not to ask most of the hydro shop people anything. Some are pretty clueless, but I have one a few minutes away, and I get a discount off everything. I just realized they can even get my stuff cheaper from Build A Soil if they order it for me. I got like 20 lbs of BAS rice hulls for $16, so now I'm pretty happy with them.
Regardless, they're both good products that have higher P levels than N so they'll both be fine for flower whichever you decide to use.

Most hydro store people are shills unfortunately. There are some good guys/stores out there, sure, but most are crap. They don't make money on growers succeeding, they make money on selling superfluous garbage to people that don't do their due diligence. Most hydro store "discounts" aren't actually discounts either. They mark up their prices super high and when they give you their "discount" it's similar in price to Amazon at best. I had the same "discount" at the hydro store I used to frequent way back in the day. They stopped being friendly to me when I was buying the same products over and over again and not falling for their upselling.

BAS is legit though. The guy not only knows what he's talking about (studied from Coots if I recall), but he provides a good quality product to boot. The only reason I don't use BAS is because the shipping costs are too high for me, likely because I'm too far from his headquarters or something. If you're getting good prices from BAS AND good shipping, definitely give the guy your business. A wise man once told me that each dollar bill in our wallets should be considered as a vote. With our dollar bills, we vote toward who we want to keep in business. Jeremy at BAS is much more worthy of our business than any hydro store or even Amazon.

A key takeaway for the living soil thing isn't just sustainability, but affordability. Use whatever is local and cheap to you. Crab Meal may be legit, but if you get a better price on guano and it's more local then by all means use it instead! The idea is to do it on the cheap and sustainably.
 
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