Do genetics change over time?

bluemagicman

Well-Known Member
This is a subject that people will never agree on. I personally wouldn't want to run the same strain for that long. I'd make seeds of it for the future. They might not be the same and if I lost some great pheno then oh well. Something just as good or better will come along.



How is that Kerala? I have a pack I got from The Real Seed Company. They even have a picture of one growing here in Oregon.

This, nothing wrong with holding a pheno you like, but just like life, sometimes you need to let something go to get something better. I could get balls deep on this subject and draw flack but I'll spare your thread of that.
 

SpawnOfVader

Well-Known Member
Have supported several strains over several years including one for the past 17 years with mothers and clones. Nothing has changed for about the last 10 years. Same location and indoor set up. This one Romulin has historically produced baseball sized flower. Bulbs are strong and changed yearly. This same strain is now acting healthy but just not getting the size that it used to. It still tests at 19% so the strength hasn't changed. Taste hasn't either. The product has just decreased. I always thought genetics doesn't change but now after 17 years on the same one I'm starting to wonder if is "worn out" Anyone have a theory or similar experience?
It's not that the "strain" changes as much as the plant just gives out.
It's not a cannabis thing, it's a 100% observable, well documented phenomena called Cellular Senescence.
You see the same thing in mushrooms. You can only take production oyster mushrooms for 4-5 generations max before you have to collect spores, make cultures, and start again.

EVERY species goes through this process, it's just at different rates. You'll find "strong" strains of mushrooms that can get 6-7 viable generations or a "weak" strain that gives out after 1-2....

And by "give out" I mean exactly the symptoms you're seeing.

In the case of the mushrooms they will take longer to colonize new media and while they flower and are provided with the perfect nutrients they will produce smaller and frailer mushroom "fruits" than they used to.

 
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SpawnOfVader

Well-Known Member
It's not that the "strain" changes as much as the plant just gives out.
It's not a cannabis thing, it's a 100% proven and well documented phenomena called Cellular Senescence.
You see the same thing in mushrooms. You can only take production oyster mushrooms for 4-5 generations max before you have to collect spores, make cultures, and start again.

EVERY species goes through this process, it's just at different rates. You'll find "strong" strains of mushrooms that can get 6-7 viable generations or a "weak" strain that gives out after 1-2....

And YES I know this conversation is about cannabis not mushrooms, they just make a better example since I know the numbers off the top of my head.
 

SpawnOfVader

Well-Known Member
There is a thread on here "clone of a clone of a clone" or something like that. Lots of info on that subject, and one of the most OG dairy gangstas in the world has added to it, so, ummmm, at least it's entertaining
Lol that's the basic concept of senescence. If you want to see an exaggerated example of the concept watch Aeon Flux :lol:
 
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oswizzle

Well-Known Member
No they dont... u bring im new genetics at anytime and you think your original stock is acting different.. congrats u got Cannabis Aids aka Dudding aka HpLVD
 

SpawnOfVader

Well-Known Member
No they dont... u bring im new genetics at anytime and you think your original stock is acting different.. congrats u got Cannabis Aids aka Dudding aka HpLVD
I wouldn't go that far... Hop Latent Viroid tends to also often create weird growth and lower the potency. They said their lab tests haven't lowered at all.
 

I.G.Rowdit

Well-Known Member
The method of propagation determines the possibility of genetic change over time.
Asexual propagated plants of any kind DO NO change over time. Some Japanese Maple cultivars have been around for thousands of years.
They are propagated mainly by grafting and there is no genetic change.
Seed grown plants are a different story. Sexual reproduction guarantees that each seed will be genetically different from all the others.
It is not only common, but expected, that seed grown populations will diverge from a common ancestor.
 

SpawnOfVader

Well-Known Member
The method of propagation determines the possibility of genetic change over time.
Asexual propagated plants of any kind DO NO change over time. Some Japanese Maple cultivars have been around for thousands of years.
They are propagated mainly by grafting and there is no genetic change.
Seed grown plants are a different story. Sexual reproduction guarantees that each seed will be genetically different from all the others.
It is not only common, but expected, that seed grown populations will diverge from a common ancestor.
Yes and no, yes reproduction is the primary force changing DNA but no it's not the only force. Mutagens such as chemical exposure, UV lighting, etc. can also change DNA to a lesser degree.

These forces are thought to be the driving factor in senescence which totally matches the description of the original issue (not a change in the strain itself, potency and characteristics are the same overall just less vigorous).

And just in case, here's the search you'd need to do to learn more on the topic:



It's a completely natural process and when you think about the fact that the biological age of mother plants when we're taking a clone of a clone of a clone etc. is actually decades in a plant that evolved to grow and die in a single season...
 

conor c

Well-Known Member
I think its more likely pathogen or environmental problems that fuck clone onlys up rather than genetic drift sure its possible but theres clones older than 30 years that are still good so i disagree with the genetic drift theory personally
 

SpawnOfVader

Well-Known Member
I think its more likely pathogen or environmental problems that fuck clone onlys up than genetic drift sure its possible but theres clones older than 30 years that are still good so i disagree with the genetic drift theory personally
Yea they don't understand what genetic drift even is. Genetic drift is a shift in the genetic pool of a population usually associated with either a small population OR a major change in the geography such as the Tassel Eared squirrels (there was one species prior to the formation of the grand canyon but now there are two distinct species).
 

vostok

Well-Known Member
This is a subject that people will never agree on. I personally wouldn't want to run the same strain for that long. I'd make seeds of it for the future. They might not be the same and if I lost some great pheno then oh well. Something just as good or better will come along.



How is that Kerala? I have a pack I got from The Real Seed Company. They even have a picture of one growing here in Oregon.

Late: greets @xtsho ..grow here out man you will be blown away with that original fruit salad bowl of flavors
actually my first backcrossing screwup, each crossing she got weaker ans weaker in flavor and hit, but I still yurn for a blast

the deal being the landrace is no comparison to the hybrid crap sold by the retailer best I could find was the Dutch kerala gold and that was diluted with an obscure indica
One on my top ten list, but she needs heat and space

good luck
 

TherealMickey

Active Member
The strain in question that started this thread did just fine on the last run. I got just over 2 lbs. from 5 plants. It was an interesting question that I just didn't have an answer for but there was some other reason for the lack of production when I had the question. Thanks for the continued input on the topic. It's very interesting. But this old girl of 18 years now is still going strong.
 

xtsho

Well-Known Member
The strain in question that started this thread did just fine on the last run. I got just over 2 lbs. from 5 plants. It was an interesting question that I just didn't have an answer for but there was some other reason for the lack of production when I had the question. Thanks for the continued input on the topic. It's very interesting. But this old girl of 18 years now is still going strong.
Well that's good. So what was the reason for lack of production? Have you been able to isolate the cause?
 

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Well unless you don't believe in the science of evolution (about the same number in the USA who don't believe in CO2 affects climate), then yes of course genetics change over time, even in a growing meristem. Cells do not replicate perfectly, but those mutations are usually benign and don't affect anything. In some cases they've led to new strains or garbage over years of repeated vegetal propagation. Natural selection is the force that would normally weed these plants out, but we're in a protective artificial environment. It's on us to weed out any potential changes that would affect yield and/or potency.

Edit: But with almost 40% of Americans not believing in the science of evolution, I'd say just stick a fork in'er. This kind of thinking is more prevalent in USA than even in the most backwards strict Middle East countries, let alone every other modern country. Fixing stupid is going to be very hard for folks over there. Hope they get it right in the next generation.
 
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