Do you Support the Patriot Act?

Do You Support the Patroit Act?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 1.9%
  • No

    Votes: 48 92.3%
  • Don't Care

    Votes: 1 1.9%
  • Don't Really Know Enough

    Votes: 2 3.8%
  • Whats the Patrioit Act?

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    52

Jack Harer

Well-Known Member
Not having a whole lot of knowledge about them thats prolly true. But in the eyes of the Government they, and many other groups, are on the watch list of the FBI and the NSA. There are a lot of "Patriot" groups out there exercising their constitutionally guaranteed rights that are being watched as terrorists. Does it worry me that there are what I consider nut cases out there armed to the hilt and conducting militant training exercises? Yes. But I do not have the right to infringe upon their right to do what they do without credible evidence they mean me and mine harm. If the government is allowed to eavesdrop on them, they can do so to us. Laws apply to everyone equally. Look at Ruby Ridge, Waco, and that other incedent where the government went in and took all of the children because they got a phone call from an unidentified girl (who was never identified). I find what they practice reprehensible. But I find lots of things that I don't agree with. Do we have the right to impose our morality? NO. But the Governmment has everyone believing that they are acting in the publics best interest by doing just that. And soon, PATRIOT is gonna come back and bite us in the ass.
 

The Ruiner

Well-Known Member
Yeah...uh huh...Waco, Ruby Ridge...bad government...yup...uh huh...I'm listening...

Those guys were dipshits that placed their own idealogy above the lives of their so-called "loved ones."

When you actually put those events into a context devoid of rhetoric you are left with an entirely different picture.
 

deprave

New Member
Yeah...uh huh...Waco, Ruby Ridge...bad government...yup...uh huh...I'm listening...

Those guys were dipshits that placed their own idealogy above the lives of their so-called "loved ones."

When you actually put those events into a context devoid of rhetoric you are left with an entirely different picture.
You mean they didn't bend over and get fingers stuck up their butts? shame on them
 

Jack Harer

Well-Known Member
Yeah...uh huh...Waco, Ruby Ridge...bad government...yup...uh huh...I'm listening...

Those guys were dipshits that placed their own idealogy above the lives of their so-called "loved ones."

When you actually put those events into a context devoid of rhetoric you are left with an entirely different picture.

You are passing judgment on people, placing your own moral values on others. What makes YOUR way right and others ways wrong? A lot of people are willing to die for what they believe is right.
How does one who has no idea what went on in that compound in Texas or that shack on the hill put things in a context, devoid of rhetoric? All we CAN do is surmise the situation. The only information that came out of those scenes was released by the government, and to a lesser degree, friends of the people involved. The ONLY reason they admitted ANY wrong doing was the presence of witnesses and TV cameras.
Just like you, others have their own ideology, and some are willing to defend that, even to the ultimate degree. I find myself leaning that way myself. I have read about everything I could get about what went on at Ruby Ridge, and to a lesser degree, Waco. I do not consider myself expert enough to presume to know the mindset of the people that were attacked by the government. How can YOU consider yourself an expert in that arena?
You wanna get rid of rhetoric, stop the name calling and posting your opinion of others and stick to the facts. The facts are that we had people that scared the government enough to be watching them, minding their own business on their own property when they were attacked by the government.
.
 

tet1953

Well-Known Member
I voted "don't really know enough". I know what the Patriot Act is. While I do know that there are parts of it I am not comfortable with, I believe that there are also parts of it which are necessary. Probably if I knew everything that is in it, I would be voting No.
 

The Ruiner

Well-Known Member
You mean they didn't bend over and get fingers stuck up their butts? shame on them
They had every chance to end things quietly, and they escalated events beyond where they should have gone to make a point. If you had to make the decision between gettin a "finger up your ass" or your young son getting shot, which would you choose?

You are passing judgment on people, placing your own moral values on others. What makes YOUR way right and others ways wrong? A lot of people are willing to die for what they believe is right.
How does one who has no idea what went on in that compound in Texas or that shack on the hill put things in a context, devoid of rhetoric? All we CAN do is surmise the situation. The only information that came out of those scenes was released by the government, and to a lesser degree, friends of the people involved. The ONLY reason they admitted ANY wrong doing was the presence of witnesses and TV cameras.
Just like you, others have their own ideology, and some are willing to defend that, even to the ultimate degree. I find myself leaning that way myself. I have read about everything I could get about what went on at Ruby Ridge, and to a lesser degree, Waco. I do not consider myself expert enough to presume to know the mindset of the people that were attacked by the government. How can YOU consider yourself an expert in that arena?
You wanna get rid of rhetoric, stop the name calling and posting your opinion of others and stick to the facts. The facts are that we had people that scared the government enough to be watching them, minding their own business on their own property when they were attacked by the government.
.
If you are suspected of commiting felonies, then the govt has every damn right to look into it, that's not rhetoric, thats just how shit is. And for the record, the timeline of events for both incidents are quite well documented, and you can easily see when and where those dipshits made the decision to take it to the next level in a conflict they could never win.
 

Corso312

Well-Known Member
Yeah...uh huh...Waco, Ruby Ridge...bad government...yup...uh huh...I'm listening...

Those guys were dipshits that placed their own idealogy above the lives of their so-called "loved ones."

When you actually put those events into a context devoid of rhetoric you are left with an entirely different picture.

waco was handled about as poorly as possible..a 10 year old retarded girl with a crayon and a piece of paper could have drawn up a better game plan...but ruby ridge was just disgusting how that went down
 

Parker

Well-Known Member
wow 27 to 1 against the ill named Patriot Act, that's 27 to 1 for freedom and liberty.
Way to go stoners
 

deprave

New Member
wow 27 to 1 against the ill named Patriot Act, that's 27 to 1 for freedom and liberty.
Way to go stoners
I know right...and somehow these people aren't voting for Ron Paul...the only candidate that stood up against the patriot act...not sure I get it
 

Jack Harer

Well-Known Member
They had every chance to end things quietly, and they escalated events beyond where they should have gone to make a point. If you had to make the decision between gettin a "finger up your ass" or your young son getting shot, which would you choose?

If you are suspected of commiting felonies, then the govt has every damn right to look into it, that's not rhetoric, thats just how shit is. And for the record, the timeline of events for both incidents are quite well documented, and you can easily see when and where those dipshits made the decision to take it to the next level in a conflict they could never win.
The Fibbies manufactured evidence (By way of a CI) that Randy Weaver had a sawed off shot gun, and that he had fired upon a surveillance helicopter (Even tho the pilots repeatedly said under oath that they had taken no fire), and when the US Marshalls went in in Ghillie suits (Camoflage) to peacefully arrest Randy, the Weavers dog alerted their presence. Thats when Sam Weaver (14 years old) and another guy went down the path to investigate. The Feds shot Sams dog, and when Sam returned fire (remember, they were in camoflage and not readily IDed as Feds) they shot and killed the 14 year old boy.

I don't want to rehash Ruby Ridge or Waco or any of the other atrocities our government has perpetrated on the civilian population. I just find your attitude towards the Governments actions, and you believing the "official story" as told by the government without question totally reprehensible, and totally unamerican. You have your views, I have mine, Granted we do need to be vigilant against terrorism, but the way our government is going about it is reminiscent of Hitlers Germany, Pol Pots regime, and I find it thoroughly unacceptable to use that kind of heavy handed, jack booted tactics against the public. Just like they come into a home with children, 20+ strong and in body armor,to raid a grow op with freaking machine guns and with tactics that belong more on a real battlefield than they do in an arrest situation. I'm done here.

Once again, Ron White is right!!!
 

The Ruiner

Well-Known Member
Randy encountered the marshals at the "Y"; Roderick recalled yelling, "Back off! U.S. Marshal!" and Cooper recalled yelling, "Stop! U.S. Marshal!" Later statements by Roderick, Cooper and Randy agreed that Randy responded by cursing and running away. About a minute later the dog and the boys came out of the woods and a firefight erupted between the marshals and Sammy and Harris.

So...instead of giving himself up (knowing full-well that he had a warrant for his arrest) he decides to run off...and doesn't even alert his child and friend. What an American Hero. Not to mention that his son fired 3 shots at federal agents for killing his dog...Yeah...great examples of parenting and patriotism.

And Wacko...I mean Waco, don't even bother dude - that was another absurdity.

 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Randy encountered the marshals at the "Y"; Roderick recalled yelling, "Back off! U.S. Marshal!" and Cooper recalled yelling, "Stop! U.S. Marshal!" Later statements by Roderick, Cooper and Randy agreed that Randy responded by cursing and running away. About a minute later the dog and the boys came out of the woods and a firefight erupted between the marshals and Sammy and Harris.

So...instead of giving himself up (knowing full-well that he had a warrant for his arrest) he decides to run off...and doesn't even alert his child and friend. What an American Hero. Not to mention that his son fired 3 shots at federal agents for killing his dog...Yeah...great examples of parenting and patriotism.

And Wacko...I mean Waco, don't even bother dude - that was another absurdity.
Hard to alert your child when he is 1/8th of a mile up a mountain and you have no idea where he is or if he is even outside. It's funny really how you try and turn the situation around and try to make it look like the kids murder was somehow the fault of Randy Weaver. The kid was pissed the Marshal shot his dog, but he did not shoot at the Marshal, he shot in the air and the Marshal gunned him down as he tried to run away.Let me make it perfectly clear, a Adult trained professional shot a 12 year old boy MULTIPLE times in the back while the kid ran away. Awfully difficult to spin that one away. The best thing of all is that when it went to court, the government was found guilty and Randy Weaver was found Innocent and then when it went to civil court Randy Weaver and his remaining children became millionaires. The government didn't give them millions, YOU and I did, for the bad things the government did to them.
 

dukeanthony

New Member
Ran Away or Ran for Cover?

Point is the Kid discharged his weapon
Tell me you wouldnt have an adrenaline dump from that

Randy Weaver and David "child molester" Koresh
Could of just surrendered

And Koresh wasnt no fuckign innocent
Him and his Followers were manufacturing Full Auto Firearms
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Ran Away or Ran for Cover?

Point is the Kid discharged his weapon
Tell me you wouldnt have an adrenaline dump from that

Randy Weaver and David "child molester" Koresh
Could of just surrendered

And Koresh wasnt no fuckign innocent
Him and his Followers were manufacturing Full Auto Firearms
Adrenaline dumps are really going to be your justification for murder? US Marshals are highly trained and most have a military background, adrenaline dump my ass, the guy shot a little kid in the back because he is a coward.


Manufacturing full auto weapons? nope, sorry. SEMI automatic weapons, for which they had a license. You really should read up on the subject more IMO.
 

dukeanthony

New Member
Manufacturing full auto weapons? nope, sorry. SEMI automatic weapons, for which they had a license. You really should read up on the subject more IMO.
In addition to allegations of sexual abuse and misconduct, Koresh and his followers were accused of stockpiling illegal weapons. Authorities investigated these charges and obtained a warrant to search Koresh's compound. Former Davidian Marc Breault claimed that Koresh had "...M16 lower receiver parts"[7] (combining certain M16 components with a modified AR-15 lower receiver possibly constitutes the manufacture of a firearm that would be classified as a machine gun;[10] the Hughes amendment, attached to the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986, effectively outlawed civilian ownership of any machine guns manufactured after the date of enactment[11]).
The January 5, 1992 interview of David Koresh by Martin King of Australian TV show A Current Affair included this exchange:
King: "Would you use a gun if someone trespassed?"
Koresh: "They come in here with a gun and they start shooting at us, what would you do?"[12]
According to the Affidavit presented by ATF investigator David Aguilera to US Magistrate Dennis G. Green on February 25, 1993, the Branch Davidian gun business (the "Mag Bag", Route 7, Box 555-B, Waco, Texas, 76705, located on Farm Road number 2491), had purchased many legal guns and gun parts from various legal vendors (such as forty-five semi-automatic AR15 lower receivers from Olympic Arms). Deliveries by UPS for the "Mag Bag" were accepted and paid for at Mount Carmel Center by Woodrow Kendrick, Paul Fatta, David Koresh or Steve Schneider. These purchases were traced by Aguilera through the normal channels used to track legal firearms purchases from legal vendors. None of the weapons and firearms were illegally obtained nor illegally owned by the "Mag Bag"; however, Aguilera affirmed to the judge that in his experience, in the past other purchasers of such legal gun parts had modified them to make illegal firearms. The search warrant was justified not on the basis there was proof that the Davidians had purchased anything illegal, but on the basis that they could be modifying legal arms to illegal arms, and that automatic weapon fire had been reported on the compound.[13] When the reports of automatic fire were first received, Steve Schneider and David Koresh showed the county sheriff department a "Hellfire" device, a quick-firing trigger sold with an ATF letter that the device was not a machinegun.
 

The Ruiner

Well-Known Member
ND,

First of all, the kid was 14. Second of all, he was with a "friend" that had already opened fire and KILLED a federal agent. Third, Sammy had already alerted Randy to the presence of either a "large animal or a man" before all three (including the dog) went BACK out to the woods. Fourth, Sammy shot at a federal agent for killing the dog.

Under no circumstances should that kid have been out there. Randy SHOULD have just gone to court and faced the music instead of putting his entire family at risk. How you can make excuses for atrocious stupidity is beyond me...
 

WillyBagseed

Active Member
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759


Ben is my hero, wonder how I voted......


As far as Ruby Ridge goes I have posted I used to be a pure Libertarian. This was in the 80's and early 90's. I have also posted the reason I am now a responsible mix of Libertarian and Democratic Socialist beliefs is in fact because of the people I met during this time. Randy Weaver was one of these people and others. Yes the government did fuck it up somewhat but from what I personally know of the man and others like him he brought most of it on himself. I met normal ( very few) Libertarians and fell deeper and deeper into the mix, there are MANY delusional, mostly white, mostly under educated people in the movement. This is based on my experience, yours could be different.

Many who fall into the pure Libertarian fantasy end up fanatics and many of those fanatics also end up (if they were not already) racists / white supremists. While I am a firm believer in personal freedoms, if you choose to live in a civilized society, 100% pure Libertarian (ism?) cannot work.

Do you seriously believe that "Do whatever you want with no regulations and only moral law" will actually make things better?

If you do then Thou art more of a believer in fantasies than a sackless Democrat or a greed is good Republicant.
 

Total Head

Well-Known Member
i haven't ordered seeds in over a year because of the ssn requirement for prepaid credit cards (if you want to register it to use online). a law that was made possible by the patriot act's agenda of "making it more difficult to launder money". the patriot act can go fuck itself. like i need another reason to have my personal information on yet ANOTHER company's poorly secured server. having that much personal information floating through corperations that are often based overseas is INSANELY short sighted. if i had a kid no way in hell would i let them use their ssn to use some stupid fucking gift card.
 
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