DWC Root Slime Cure aka How to Breed Beneficial Microbes

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I brew my tea in the corner of the room where it gets soft light. The microbes aren't using photosynthesis so they do not need the light. I also cover mine but only because I don't want the bubbles to splash little bits of bacteria all over my area. Tea does not effect the PPM.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing this great post, Heisenberg :) I have read a lot of great advantages that beneficial microbes can give hydroponics plants but I am still thinking if it's wise to just refrain from using hydrogen peroxide and just go ahead and add beneficial microbes in my reservoir. Luckily, I have never encountered any problems so far with my growing which is why I am a bit hesitant in adding more organisms in my system. Any thoughts?
In a DWC the benefits you get from the microbes are neglegable, because in the end you only end up with extra available fertilizer. Simple thing is to just add some fert booster to begin with. Note this is referring to a DWC grow, and not something like soil or even coco. If you can afford the time and effort, it's never a bad idea to add bennies as a precaution. And BTW, unless you run a sterilizing agent and are extremely diligent about scrubbing equipment and growing area, you already have some microorganism in your water, they just haven't been able to gain a foot hold.. Healthy plants are actually pretty good at fighting off disease on their own.

This is what dutch master has to say
Why we DO NOT Recommend the use of Beneficial Mycorrhizae (Fungi) and Bacteria in Hydroponics!
Mycorrhizae are beneficial fungi that penetrate the roots of most plants in nature. This symbiotic relationship is beneficial in that the plant provides sugars to the fungi, and the fungi enhance nutrient uptake for the plant. There are two major groups of mycorrhizae: ectomycorrhyzae and endomychorrhizae. The 'ectos' do not actually penetrate the cells of the roots, but are found between the intercellular spaces. Ectos have been found to be able to utilize a range of organic compounds such as proteins, peptides and amino acids. However, these fungi are restricted to coniferous tree species (gymnosperms) and Ericacious (heath/ bog) species where soil breakdown of amino acids is minimal.

Endomycorrhizal fungi aid in water and nutrient uptake, especially phosphorus, but do not aid in mineralization of organic matter, and thus have not been found to take up organic nutrients. Unlike ectos, 'endos' invade root cortical cell walls and can form branched structures called arbuscules which are efficient sites of exchange between fungus and root cell. Endos are primarily associated with herbaceous plants (angiosperms) commonly grown in greenhouses and hydroponic systems.

In hydroponics, there would be little value to be obtained from mycorrhizal associations in this situation. Their value is to provide improved uptake of water and minerals from the soil / growing media. In a hydroponic setting, the plant has constant access to all the water and dissolved minerals it needs. The mycorrhizal fungi would do little to improve on a root constantly bathed in water and minerals, however may aid in nutrient uptake under plant stress and low root biomass. Most hydroponically grown plants are of angiosperm origin, and since endomycorrhizae are not known to take up whole organic molecules in any situation, these fungi would not benefit in the uptake of a root based supplement product containing these substances. Many products make claims of enhanced growth and yield from beneficial microorganisms added to the nutrient solution along with organic fertilizers. This phenomenon can be attributed to the enzymatic secretions of these fungi into the solution to breakdown organic matter into its essential elements for uptake and transport to the roots. Essentially, it is the same as adding extra fertilizer.

In soil mediums where organic fertilizers are used, the extra surface area provided by the mycorrhizal associations can act to enhance nutrient uptake, and to break down (via enzymatic secretions from the fungi) organic matter into its essential minerals usable by plants. Beneficial bacteria are useful in this situation again by breaking down organic matter and rendering it useful to plants in its simple mineral form. Organic fertilizers are slow acting and slow releasing, and these beneficial organisms are necessary in situations where no added mineral salts are present. However, there is little to be gained even in soil and soilless mediums when complete fertilizers with all essential nutrients are present. The use of Beneficial Bacteria in hydroponic systems can clog lines, filters and pumps.
Of course the article doesn't address the issue of root disease.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Just to clear up some questions:

I didn't post the above article to suggest that you shouldn't use microbes. I was just trying to point out that they one and only reason to use them in a DWC is to displace root disease. (organics are a completely diff story of course)

I suggest aquashield+ZHO powder because they are the cheapest I have found and still do an excellent job. Pretty much any other product can be substituted, like the sub-b/m, great white, ect. The important things to look for are the trichoderma fungi and the bacillis bacteria. AN microbe products piranha and tarantula, for whatever reason, seem to make the slime 10 times worse, so stay away from those. When it's all said and done, the ancient forest EWC probably already has everything you need, the other stuff is just an extra safeguard.
 

gimmethatfish

Active Member
Really really great thread. I have some root problems right now in a DWC and am starting my first brew tonight. Unfortunately, I couldn't get any of the GH Ancient Forest or the ZHO powder... But I bought another beneficial bacteria pack with the trichoderma and bacillis, another bag of Organic EWC. What do you think Heisenberg? Will my EWC tea still come out robust and diverse? Short of ordering some Ancient Forest this was my only option.


Update: Mixed everything in a 3gal and added 2 airstones. Water is bubbling like crazy. After about 30 minutes there is quite a bit of foam on top of the mixture. Would look like soap foam to me if I didn't have a clean bucket and a clean sock... Is this normal?
 

FeFiFoFUM

Active Member
Really really great thread. I have some root problems right now in a DWC and am starting my first brew tonight. Unfortunately, I couldn't get any of the GH Ancient Forest or the ZHO powder... But I bought another beneficial bacteria pack with the trichoderma and bacillis, another bag of Organic EWC. What do you think Heisenberg? Will my EWC tea still come out robust and diverse? Short of ordering some Ancient Forest this was my only option.


Update: Mixed everything in a 3gal and added 2 airstones. Water is bubbling like crazy. After about 30 minutes there is quite a bit of foam on top of the mixture. Would look like soap foam to me if I didn't have a clean bucket and a clean sock... Is this normal?

Yeah its normal, Same thing happened when I brewed mine, Hesienberg told me it was the microbes getting active or something. Nothing to worry about man.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Really really great thread. I have some root problems right now in a DWC and am starting my first brew tonight. Unfortunately, I couldn't get any of the GH Ancient Forest or the ZHO powder... But I bought another beneficial bacteria pack with the trichoderma and bacillis, another bag of Organic EWC. What do you think Heisenberg? Will my EWC tea still come out robust and diverse? Short of ordering some Ancient Forest this was my only option.


Update: Mixed everything in a 3gal and added 2 airstones. Water is bubbling like crazy. After about 30 minutes there is quite a bit of foam on top of the mixture. Would look like soap foam to me if I didn't have a clean bucket and a clean sock... Is this normal?
Any EWC will be effective as long as it hasn't been sterilized. It's not common to find sterilized EWC in a hydro shop because it's main benefit is the micro-life, however some people who cultivate mushrooms need a sterilized medium, so you do see it occasionally. My first bag of generic said "odor free" which concerned me until I read that EWC is naturally odorless. From the brands i've tried Ancient Forest has been the most effective.

Like FeF said, the foam is normal and in fact, something we like to see when making the tea.

Let us know your progress, good luck!
 

gimmethatfish

Active Member
So I saw a little improvement in my root systems from H202 and Hygrozyme when I changed my res before adding my first batch of microbe tea. I added the tea on the 27th and after 2 days there is a noticeable increase in water intake (huge increase), and my root growth is back in full swing (fingers crossed). Got a big jug of tea in the fridge, and with any luck this will only cost me a delayed finish. Thank you, Heisenberg; seriously I wish I had found this thread a month ago before going back and forth between slimy and clean over and over. +rep
 

vh13

Well-Known Member
I just bought some Great White. It was easier then getting my hands on Ancient Warrior.

I have experience brewing teas and micros. Lets see if GW is worth $40, shall we! :-P

Doing Step 1: Building a foam generator. ;-)

PS-EDIT: Was in a rush to build before. Slowin down now. :bigjoint:

Over 5 hours of bubbling so far. Way early for brewing, but it's not the full heady aroma of a compost/wormy tea though it still smells absolutely wonderful, like clean healthy mushroom babies, and without the mess. I'm scheduling these easy beasties in for an appointment with my sick DWC girls on Sunday morning. They need it bad too, it's gotten so that I can't pop new seedlings without 'em having to constantly regrow roots out of their net pots, and my bonsai moms have slowly gotten so unhealthy I can't cut clones. :-(

I've tried increased oxygenation, sterilizing all my equipment every day with steam, enzymes, and even H2O2... both of the last two actually made things worse. At best, new roots just didn't last long. At worst... well... the weaker moms have already passed.

I used to work strictly organics, but some time ago I fell in love with clean DWC. Up to now I've been attempting to work sterile because I thought it'd give me better control, but your well written post has given me the confidence to explore.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Thank you, Heisenberg; seriously I wish I had found this thread a month ago before going back and forth between slimy and clean over and over. +rep
Glad to hear another success story. I felt the same way when I saw the results of the tea; wish I had found this 6 months ago before 4 bottles of sterilizing products and hours of scrubbing.
 

Thor1911

Well-Known Member
I put in a gallon of this in my res yesterday and I checked it to raised my ph lot.
I noticed a little slime or something on the roots, I think thats the plants sending food down to the microbes?

Edit: I just realized I didn't ph the water I used for breeding the microbes lol
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
How big is your res? A gallon of tea will treat a 16-20 gallon res. If you have a small res then the slime could be from too much fungi, which isn't necessarily a problem, jus back way off. Keep an eye on what you saw, if it is the brown slime it will grow quickly.

I don't worry about adjusting the PH of the tea water, but I keep in mind that it effects the PH when I add it to the res, and adjust then.
 

Thor1911

Well-Known Member
How big is your res? A gallon of tea will treat a 16-20 gallon res. If you have a small res then the slime could be from too much fungi, which isn't necessarily a problem, jus back way off. Keep an eye on what you saw, if it is the brown slime it will grow quickly.

I don't worry about adjusting the PH of the tea water, but I keep in mind that it effects the PH when I add it to the res, and adjust then.
Yeah thats what I did lol. 2+2=4

I'm not sure. Maybe a 10gal? lol.
 

vh13

Well-Known Member
I applied roughly 5% of my 30+ hours of bubbled Great White and brown sugar to fresh changed reservoirs and clean buckets.

I don't think the various beasties are all awake because there hasn't been any foam yet. Temperatures are expectedly a little low this time of year. Or maybe the GW herd isn't into foam parties? :-P

I did see some nice looking clumps, however. I assumed the clumps were colonies emerging from the inert ingredients, so I shook the mix well and confidently added sugar water and vicious beasties to my reservoirs. :-)

Will let you know the results when I check on the reservoirs in another two days. ;-)
 

disposition84

Well-Known Member
I know this might sound silly, but is there a temperature that's too low for beneficials?

Decided to try running my system at 60* to raise DO, but I have no idea at what temp
benies begin to have issues if any. Using great white/hygrozyme.
 

vh13

Well-Known Member
While doing my adjustments today I found many of my roots covered in white slime and the pH was WAY low... as if the sugar water fed the same slime problem that's been suffocating my roots for months now. I'm gonna just have to wait and see if the slime turns brown I guess.

Some roots look healthier already, white instead of brown, a few new roots are fuzzy (this makes me optimistic because I haven't seen fuzzy roots in months) others didn't appear to change much. Growth rate seems about right for immediately after a reservoir change.

I applied another 5% of my still bubbling brown sugar and GW breeding solution to topped and pH adjusted reservoirs. The solution was nearly transparent before agitation, and the clumps were significantly larger and harder to break up. Does this mean the various beasties are all out in full force now?

Next top-off and more notes in two days.

To disposition84, my GW container says to store between 40-85 degrees Fahrenheit, though I don't know if active culture requires a narrower range.
 

FeFiFoFUM

Active Member
While doing my adjustments today I found many of my roots covered in white slime and the pH was WAY low... as if the sugar water fed the same slime problem that's been suffocating my roots for months now. I'm gonna just have to wait and see if the slime turns brown I guess.

Some roots look healthier already, white instead of brown, a few new roots are fuzzy (this makes me optimistic because I haven't seen fuzzy roots in months) others didn't appear to change much. Growth rate seems about right for immediately after a reservoir change.

I applied another 5% of my still bubbling brown sugar and GW breeding solution to topped and pH adjusted reservoirs. The solution was nearly transparent before agitation, and the clumps were significantly larger and harder to break up. Does this mean the various beasties are all out in full force now?

Next top-off and more notes in two days.

To disposition84, my GW container says to store between 40-85 degrees Fahrenheit, though I don't know if active culture requires a narrower range.

When I made the tea I used molasses not brown sugar, I didnt have clumps in my tea either.

I have never seen a white slime.

I have sucessfully followed the recipe and defeated the brown slime algae, I have heard of other using the great white in the tea with good success so maybe it is something you have done wrong? The only thing I can think of is the substitution of Brown sugar for Unsulphered mollasses tho Im not sure anything is wrong, Just I have never seen a white slime and I didnt have PH issues either, my ph stayed pretty level.
 

vh13

Well-Known Member
When I made the tea I used molasses not brown sugar, I didnt have clumps in my tea either.

I have never seen a white slime.

I have sucessfully followed the recipe and defeated the brown slime algae, I have heard of other using the great white in the tea with good success so maybe it is something you have done wrong? The only thing I can think of is the substitution of Brown sugar for Unsulphered mollasses tho Im not sure anything is wrong, Just I have never seen a white slime and I didnt have PH issues either, my ph stayed pretty level.
Brown sugar is molasses, with extra sugar. I've used brown sugar to make compost/wormy tea without problems.

If anything, I think my first application of GW tea was with a premature culture. With this last application, I'm more confident the tea was mature. Will have to wait and see.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Res temps below 68f retards most microbe growth (except brown slime of course) and the microbes thrive best at low to mid 70's. Lowering res temps doesn't increase the DO by all that much, my solution is to use a powerful pump to replace the oxygen faster than it can be depleted.

VH13, are you using an EWC, or just the great white? Great white is an awesome product, but the EWC is really the magic ingredient.
 
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