Fan Leafs. Blockers of Light Or Energy Producers???

stumpjumper said:

Only 2 more weeks to get necrotic..... I don't think it's happening. I'm going to cut a few leaves off today, for a few bottoms still in the shade and clearly behind the ones that aren't shaded..

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Since you've come to the conclusion that less leaves produces more, I'm quite surprised you haven't started butchering them sooner. Why not? I mean if less leaves produces more yield, whatcha waiting for?

Uncle Ben said:

Since you've come to the conclusion that less leaves produces more, I'm quite surprised you haven't started butchering them sooner. Why not? I mean if less leaves produces more yield, whatcha waiting for?

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I never said that, I said removing leaves that are shading out lower bud sites to give those sites direct light will improve the quality of those buds.

Thats a fact Mr.

You don't have to strip every leaf off the plant to accomplish this and it can be done without being detrimental to the overall plant health, obviously.

Take your nose out of the books and get a little experience under your belt. I'm tired of argueing with Ed Rosenthal when he isn't even here to agree or disagree.

All I can say is this thread delivers. I mean from defoliation, light cycles, to politics(BTW loved the "it could have been 26oz with the leaves on" sounds like a argument for that wasted stimulus money...lol) and even a few decent insults. I think the best part is the OP got fed up and left.

I did actually learn a few things in the thread, although none of it about the subject of defoliation

thedude27 said:

All I can say is this thread delivers. I mean from defoliation, light cycles, to politics(BTW loved the "it could have been 26oz with the leaves on" sounds like a argument for that wasted stimulus money...lol) and even a few decent insults. I think the best part is the OP got fed up and left.

I did actually learn a few things in the thread, although none of it about the subject of defoliation

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Try this new post, it is relevant to the function of fan leaves. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-59.html#post8342178

stumpjumper said:

I never said that, I said removing leaves that are shading out lower bud sites to give those sites direct light will improve the quality of those buds.

Thats a fact Mr.

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So one should throw away all apples, plums, grapes, peaches, tomatoes, peppers, roses, mums, etc. found within a dense canopy because they are totally shaded?

Sorry, but buds don't have a tenth of the photosynthetic activity of a fan leaf.

Thats a fact Mr.

You're a part of the same old dumbass, Obama worshipping, herd when it comes to pot growers and going along to get along. Try this one which focuses on such ignorant thought - https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-59.html#post8342178

Get your nose into a horticulture and botany book, and I don't mean one focused on cannabis.

i agree with you uncle ben but i think what he was getting at was not the light to the actual bud but the branch, as the lower buds will have there own sets of leaves to produce more flower or bud you increase the size and density of the bud, thus adding weight to the yeild...

No I'm not speaking in Romulan...

What I mean is:

Little tiny light green immature bud being shaded by a bunch of fan leaves will darken, fatten and mature when said fan leaves are removed to allow light to get to the poor little worthless bud.

Uncle Buck, you're giving too much credit to tomatoes and roses.. Get back to the subject because tomatoes and roses are irrelevant to this topic.

Enjoy your immature popcorn fluff, I wont have any.

BTW, Nothing necrotic yet.. only a little over a week left.. I've also decided to not take anymore fan leaves off, I have pretty good light penetration now, just so you can't say I cut them off because they were necrotic..

Also Uncle Buck, since my plants are mutilated you must also havean idea of what kind of yield I should be expecting.. Here's a math problem for you..

8 plants x 4 weeks veg + 2 x 600w HID's = Weight

What are you thinking my harvest weight will be since I fucked my plants and they aren't growing right? It doesn't matter does it. If I pull 2 elbows you'll say it could've been 3 right? lmao.

Pearls before swine. What's this 'Uncle Buck' stuff?

Little tiny light green immature bud being shaded by a bunch of fan leaves will darken, fatten and mature when said fan leaves are removed to allow light to get to the poor little worthless bud.

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As I said before, that is botanically impossible. I'll repeat myself for those that have a thick head - "Sorry, but buds don't have a tenth of the photosynthetic activity of a fan leaf."

Uncle Buck, you're giving too much credit to tomatoes and roses.. Get back to the subject because tomatoes and roses are irrelevant to this topic.

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It's totally relevant, you just won't admit to the facts since you can't grasp plant processes/concepts. Hmmmmmmmmmprrrrrhhhhh.....guess I need to pluck all those shaded peaches next July. They won't have any "quality", right?

And you WILL have immature popcorn fluff, pluck or not.

Pluck away, you Mother Plucker.

You're wrong..

Buds do contain their own leaves besides the fan leaves, maybe they use those once the fan is gone. That's incomprehensible though huh?

So tell me then Mr. All Knowing.. Why do they green up, mature and get fatter once they start getting direct light, if it isn't because the fan leaf is gone? They wouldn't have when the fan leaf was there blocking the light. You can argue all you want but the direct light is beneficial and I've seen it first hand on many occasions.

You can argue till you're blue in the face but you will not change my mind because my opinion is based on experience. You are basing yours on what someone else says.

Sorry bout the Uncle Buck thing, I guess you reminded me of someone else.

PSUAGRO. said:

I don't even know why UB even bothers with this crap.......nothing but logical/industry proven advice given by the old fart

*Cough*........If you don't know who wrote this/well you have more studying to do........be safe and happy growing

Leafing is one of the most misunderstood techniques of drug Cannabis cultivation. In the mind of the cultivator, several reasons exist for removing leaves. Many feel that large shade leaves draw energy from the flowering plant, and therefore the flowering clusters will be smaller. It is felt that by removing the leaves, surplus energy will be available, and large floral clusters will be formed. Also, some feel that inhibitors of flowering, synthesized in the leaves during the long noninductive days of summer, may be stored in the older leaves that were formed during the noninductive photoperiod. Possibly, if these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will proceed to flower, and maturation will be accelerated. Large leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small atrophied floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.
In actuality, few if any of the theories behind leafing give any indication of validity. Indeed, leafing possibly serves to defeat its original purpose. Large leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of Cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth sub stances. They also create shade, but at the same time they are collecting valuable solar energy and producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant. Premature removal of leaves may cause stunting, because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced. As these leaves age and lose their ability to carry on photo synthesis they turn chlorotie (yellow) and fall to the ground. In humid areas care is taken to remove the yellow or brown leaves, because they might invite attack by fungus. During chlorosis the plant breaks down substances, such as chlorophylls, and translocates the molecular components to a new growing part of the plant, such as the flowers. Most Cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage, and this trend continues until senescence. It is more efficient for the plant to reuse the energy and various molecular components of existing chlorophyll than to synthesize new chlorophyll at the time of flowering. During flowering this energy is needed to form floral clusters and ripen seeds.
Removing large amounts of leaves may interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. If this metabolic change occurs too late in the season it could interfere with floral development and delay maturation. If any floral inhibitors are removed, the intended effect of accelerating flowering will probably be counteracted by metabolic upset in the plant. Removal of shade leaves does facilitate more light reaching the center of the plant, but if there is not enough food energy produced in the leaves, the small internal floral clusters will probably not grow any larger. Leaf removal may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic change.
If leaves must be removed, the petiole is cut so that at least an inch remains attached to the stalk. Weaknesses in the limb axis at the node result if the leaves are pulled off at the abscission layer while they are still green. Care is taken to see that the shriveling petiole does not invite fungus attack.
It should be remembered that, regardless of strain or environmental conditions, the plant strives to reproduce, and reproduction is favored by early maturation. This produces a situation where plants are trying to mature and reproduce as fast as possible. Although the purpose of leafing is to speed maturation, disturbing the natural progressive growth of a plant probably interferes with its rapid development.
Cannabis grows largest when provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and water and left alone to grow and mature naturally. It must be remembered that any alteration of the natural life cycle of Cannabis will affect productivity. Imaginative combinations and adaptations of propagation techniques exist, based on specific situations of cultivation. Logical choices are made to direct the natural growth cycle of Cannabis to favor the timely maturation of those products sought by the cultivator, without sacrificing seed or clone production.

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What a fine example of an ignorant follower above in all their sheepish majesty
copy n pasting the universal truth for us all to bow down to from whatever popular guru worthy of worship without question

1, your opinion is not worth shit i am sorry sir, your opinion will not stop my trees from growing

2, posting the opinions of others as if they are a universal fact is one of the most cowardly ignorant acts imo

3, establish your own facts , through experience trial n error

4 fanboys like UB inhibit progress as all they can do is repeat the same mistakes as their masters

if you would like to post some pictures of plants you have grown and defoliated yourself, that would be more interesting
than your second hand regurgitated opinion

peace

well as you asked skunkdoc, some pic`s of my slight defoiliated plants...

as you can see, and sorry the pic isn`t that good, but i`ve a small area to grow with height being scarce i have to keep them small, so even if there topped or not, super cropped etc, the one thing i find that works each time is to defoiliate slightly and as regular as needed....

last chop down pic there and got just under 252g so just under 9oz off 4 plants that were no taller than 2ft...

skunkd0c said:

What a fine example of an ignorant follower above in all their sheepish majesty
copy n pasting the universal truth for us all to bow down to from whatever popular guru worthy of worship without question

1, your opinion is not worth shit i am sorry sir, your opinion will not stop my trees from growing

2, posting the opinions of others as if they are a universal fact is one of the most cowardly ignorant acts imo

3, establish your own facts , through experience trial n error

4 fanboys like UB inhibit progress as all they can do is repeat the same mistakes as their masters

if you would like to post some pictures of plants you have grown and defoliated yourself, that would be more interesting
than your second hand regurgitated opinion

peace

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What a fine example of an ignorant Englishman with his fuck-all assumptions who likes to jerk off to star trek

1) Calm down and relax grower.... you don't come off as a cannabis user with your aggressive attitude IMO/ maybe you should smoke some of those large defoliated buds instead of selling it all......we're just growing weed here, it's not heart surgery----A hardy C3 plant will grow/flower wonderfully just left alone--I don't think your "trees" will suffer in your absence.

2) Felt that the quote was relevant to the presently "well-mannered" discussion going on in here....my bad for trolling....Do I consider it a fact? well this comes from a dutch marijuana botanist(30+ years working in the field)===currently working on the Sativex project as a ..........wait for it........ marijuana botanist.....still won't tell u who he is/ like I said study more

3) If I wrote the quote based on MY OWN EXPERIENCES would you believe it then???......probably call me a cowardly-grower-liar-faggot-nofacts-cocksucker...let's not forget noob..

4)UB may be a prick sometimes but MOST of his methods/advice/suggestions are proven and used in the US AG. industry......Oh wait the AG community wants to harvest smallest yields per acre and use the most resources to do so; RIGHT??lol.......I worked 9 years in the PA wine industry/doesn't mean shit really! but enough too know that MOST of UB's info is practiced on crops.........like I said I don't know why UB even bother's anymore...

You want to continue to "leaf" your girls.....go ahead, but don't spread misinformation that it increases yields.......We only EVER defoliated/applied fungicide when we had extreme RH/rainy seasons at early flowering stages........but that doesn't mean shit either .....you keep removing leaves and i'll allow 300000000+ years of cannabis evolution/natural selection do it's "thing" on mine..... No biggie

Of course my question gets ignored.

I know for a fact that buds that get direct light do better than ones that do not. I have done a few grows and have seen it.

Others seem to have seen the opposite. How can that be?

Wish someone would do a scientific test of plucking vs not.

Comparing a peach to a bud seems dumb. Plucking leaves a few at a time over a period of months would be time and effort prohibitive. Might be one of the reasons agriculture does not do this besides the not working thing.

my bro made a mistake and took off ALL the big fan leaves off 6 of our plants after only 4 weeks of flower...

we have 12 more plants... same strain.. same phase of flower that have the leaves left on.

I will post pictures in 2 weeks showing the difference in nug size and growth if any

I usually strip off the leaves the last 2 weeks of the grow but only with certain strains




But on the flip side you have strains that dont have alot of fan leaves due to genetics but produce huge colas

colonuggs said:

But on the flip side you have strains that dont have alot of fan leaves due to genetics but produce huge colas

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Looks like a lot of fan leaves to me. Again, fan leaves are the most efficient photon collectors of any green matter on cannabis. Ever wonder why mama nature created such large photon collectors? Ever wonder why she extended those solar collectors into the environment using long arms (petioles)? Dats right kiddies, because long extensions of a large surface area exposes the leaf to photons in the most efficient and effective manner. Mother nature is smart, as opposed to a bunch of dumb asses that are determined to work against her using tricks, gimmicks, and snake oils.

My avatar is a good example. I retained almost all fan leaves until harvest, and it paid off with a solid, 5" wide large, super dense cola and solid chunky lower lateral buds. Of course that profile is genetically driven once you have the gardening thingie down pat. Can't do that with a pure sativa though.

(not singling you out. Ya done good.)

Uncle Ben

stumpjumper said:

Of course my question gets ignored.

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I've answered it a million times, with each crop of noobies. I've answered it here but you can't accept 'no' to your irresponsible postulations.

Look, research hormonal processes and apical dominance concepts, OK? The reason lower buds are airy has nothing to do with the amount of light received. (That's yet another stupid cannabis forum myth that won't die, not unlike the stupid "when do I flush?" drill noobs can't shake.) They are light and airy because they are the last to push and the least "important" plant part regarding nutritional, hormonal, protein, amino acid, etc. inputs from the plant.

Perhaps electrolytes will help your airy buds. Folks say plants crave them.

UB

yesum said:

Comparing a peach to a bud seems dumb.

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Why, because this "foreign concept" flies into the face of those that don't have a broad exposure to plants, to horticulture? Name a plant and I bet I've grown it in my 40+ years of gardening.

Cannabis is just another foliar annual that flowers when it's time...... like basil, cilantro, tomato. Doesn't matter whether it's an orchid, rose, apple, grape vine, tomato....the reproduction part of a plant is driven by the health and mass of its foliage (root system given).

UB

stumpjumper said:

Why do they green up, mature and get fatter once they start getting direct light, if it isn't because the fan leaf is gone? They wouldn't have when the fan leaf was there blocking the light.

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I posted a story of how anecdotal evidence is subject to confirmation bias with my blackberry bush and this is a prime example of that.

Here think about this for a second. A bud started forming while it was in the shade of a large fan leaf. You come along and notice it is small because it has formed long after the stronger taller older buds up high. So you think you will help it along and remove some of those evil fan leaves that are shading it and, in your assumption, keeping it down. Then you notice (on the bud that you just recently did notice in the first place) that it starts to grow and plump up.

Here is you confirmation bias; you are making an assumption that removing the fan leaf was what allowed this newly grown baby bud to grow. The fact of the matter is that if you had failed to notice, the bud would have also grown.....because all the buds are growing and plumping up. It was small because it was immature. You cannot make the argument that you helped this bud along, because honestly, you have no idea if you did or not. Thats confirmation bias, because you could just as easily make the claim that if you hadnt removed the leaf, the bud would have been 10 times its final size.

akula said:

I posted a story of how anecdotal evidence is subject to confirmation bias with my blackberry bush and this is a prime example of that.

Here think about this for a second. A bud started forming while it was in the shade of a large fan leaf. You come along and notice it is small because it has formed long after the stronger taller older buds up high. So you think you will help it along and remove some of those evil fan leaves that are shading it and, in your assumption, keeping it down. Then you notice (on the bud that you just recently did notice in the first place) that it starts to grow and plump up.

Here is you confirmation bias; you are making an assumption that removing the fan leaf was what allowed this newly grown baby bud to grow. The fact of the matter is that if you had failed to notice, the bud would have also grown.....because all the buds are growing and plumping up. It was small because it was immature. You cannot make the argument that you helped this bud along, because honestly, you have no idea if you did or not. Thats confirmation bias, because you could just as easily make the claim that if you hadnt removed the leaf, the bud would have been 10 times its final size.

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Wrong, I've grown enough plants to know what those little shaded buds end up being. I haven't always defoliated. Nice try though.