First Grow: 400 watt HPS, Permafrost, White Widow, White Rhino, Blackjack

I'm wondering why you're having such Ph issues? Too high or too low?
Are you still using the Gardeners and Bloom?
Also....If you have nutrient lockout problems and you are adding bloom nutes to the pot, then your plant is not using those nutes and they are building up in the soil. This could end up haunting you.
You've got to determine the source of your PH problems. Weather its your soil mix to begin with or if its something you are adding to it, ie water/nutes.
I would think that if your PH is high, its your soil mix. If your PH is too low maybe your adding too much fertilizer and your plant is not using it all. A buildup of unused ferts will increase the acidity of your meduim.
Just some quick thoughts. Good luck man.

itsgrowinglikeaweed said:

I'm wondering why you're having such Ph issues? Too high or too low?
Are you still using the Gardeners and Bloom?
Also....If you have nutrient lockout problems and you are adding bloom nutes to the pot, then your plant is not using those nutes and they are building up in the soil. This could end up haunting you.
You've got to determine the source of your PH problems. Weather its your soil mix to begin with or if its something you are adding to it, ie water/nutes.
I would think that if your PH is high, its your soil mix. If your PH is too low maybe your adding too much fertilizer and your plant is not using it all. A buildup of unused ferts will increase the acidity of your meduim.
Just some quick thoughts. Good luck man.

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Yes, Still using G&B soil. I don't recall adding any nutes during the veg stage but then again these plants vegged for almost 2 months. I've only watered once with the Bloom nutes in the last few weeks. I'm starting to doubt the accuracy of my PH meter, its a good one too $80, but I don't know. The plants aren't sucking up the water very fast, only water once a week. One mistake I made when measuring the run-off previously was not cleaning the run-off pan prior to watering. So the run-off that was measured was mixed with all the junk in the pan. Lesson Learned.

I would get a pH calibration solution to check the accuracy of your tester.
Are you sure about the lockout? It made sense by the look of 'em, but....2 months of veg with no feeding? Maybe they were just REALLY hungry when you started to flower them, and now they are deficient.
They would look the same if you had lockout, as they would if they were just plain starving.
At this point I'd say it's all about the accuracy of your PH tester.

itsgrowinglikeaweed said:

I would get a pH calibration solution to check the accuracy of your tester.
Are you sure about the lockout? It made sense by the look of 'em, but....2 months of veg with no feeding? Maybe they were just REALLY hungry when you started to flower them, and now they are deficient.
They would look the same if you had lockout, as they would if they were just plain starving.
At this point I'd say it's all about the accuracy of your PH tester.

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My PH meter has 3 point calibration which I calibrated using 4 and 7 calibration solution, store didn't have 10 solution. I watered this morning with PH of 6.2 and measured the run-off in CLEAN run-off pans which measured 6.2 also. I think they are just really hungry. The plants looked better today and the buds have definitely grown since Friday, so fingers crossed, the plants are getting the nutes they need to recover.

If the buds are growing and still pushing hairs then you're definitely not locked out. Sounds like you can trust the meter so...I think you're right... hungry plants you have, feed them more you must. Yoda out.....

All, Please take the time to respond the the question below.

How close do you keep your HPS light(s) to the plant tops?

The book says 12-18 inches.
Without a cooltube... I could not get that close without heat stress. (leaf margins rolling up).
With a cooltube (homeade hurricane lantern glass tube, open ended design) I can have tops within 6-8 inches. Currently the top closest to the light is 10 inches away. Most of my plants tops are 12 inches or more away. Some plants are 3-4 feet tall and some are 2-3 feet. The "top" that is farthest away is 18 inches away.
Hope that helps.

itsgrowinglikeaweed said:

The book says 12-18 inches.
Without a cooltube... I could not get that close without heat stress. (leaf margins rolling up).
With a cooltube (homeade hurricane lantern glass tube, open ended design) I can have tops within 6-8 inches. Currently the top closest to the light is 10 inches away. Most of my plants tops are 12 inches or more away. Some plants are 3-4 feet tall and some are 2-3 feet. The "top" that is farthest away is 18 inches away.
Hope that helps.

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I have been keeping mine about 4-6 inches from the glass of the cool tube. I took these pics yesterday and was reminded of the seedlings that I mistakenly kept too close to the light (they were light green and curled under). I'm still thinking that the plants are nute deficient but just want to make sure that the proximity of the light is not adding to the problem.

jrp677 said:

I have been keeping mine about 4-6 inches from the glass of the cool tube. I took these pics yesterday and was reminded of the seedlings that I mistakenly kept too close to the light (they were light green and curled under). I'm still thinking that the plants are nute deficient but just want to make sure that the proximity of the light is not adding to the problem.

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IGLAW, do you think I am keeping the light too close? I guess that you are the only pro who has 2 cents to spare, no one else has any comments, just flies on the wall . Thanks again IGLAW for all of your help you've given along the way, very much appreciated.

I think that 4-6 inches is too close. But I dont think that that is your problem. I do wonder about "bleaching" of leaves from being too close to an HID. Usually when a plant is too close to the light, you have heat stress. I dont see any signs of heat stress on your plants. But even in perfect temps you can be too close. What would the result of being too close be if its not heat stress? I dont exactly know. Poor growth and discoloring I would imagine. I dont see any advantage of having them THAT close and 12 inches is plenty close enough for good results. So maybe you should try backing them off and see if that helps. It surely won't hurt.
Other than the color of them I think your plants LOOK overwatered and overfed. Droopy leaves tells me they're overwatered, and a few burnt tips along with leaf tips pointing down says they're overfed. (probably a result of you trying to fix the yellowing problem.) Its hard to not do too much especially when trying to bring a plant back to health.
I have a flowering plant fading out turning yellow too. Same color as yours. It started almost immediately after switching to 12/12. I'm quite sure it is the result of a potassium def. I have added N and P to my flowering soilmix in the form of bone meal(6-9-0) and bat guano(0-5-0). Add them together and I have (6-14-0). Obviously i need some K.The sativa dominates I was growing didn't mind but the much hungrier indicas I'm flowering now need more K for sure.
Indicas need a lot more nutrients than sativas do in my experience. Sativas do want more water though.
I try to get a pic of mine up for you. How much K do your nutes contain?

My Ph is perf 6.7 There should be plenty of N and P available. I have watered with epsom salts to provide S and Mg. There is lime in my mix for PH buffering and to provide Calcium and other trace elements. The only thing left is K.

Having overfed plants and killed nearly all of them, I think that looks like too many nutrients. If the leaves near the top look like they are lacking nitrogen (lime green, curled, old, stunted), as opposed to the lower fan leaves (they SHOULD be fading in color), it is over fert. I learned the hard way, and after leaving a WW mother under an 60w bulb and watering it every week with Ph plain water, it was back from the near-dead. The tops of the plants reflect was in going on with the roots, so an unhappy top conopy usually means unahappy roots. If ph is right where it should be, then I would give plain water for a few feedings. If over fert is the problem, then the excess salts and whatnot will drain, and what is still available in the root medium will be enought to sustain new growth for a while. You will see the leaves raise and the lime-green color will go away. Under and HPS, lime green or overfertilizing can look like pale green of flowering. Be sure to test the runn-off from your feedings too, not just the water you feed with. A low pH in the drainage water means a high buildup of salts (I think?), which means none are being absorbed. Adjusting pH can fix this problem, but always be safe a clean the medium to help the roots. And as for the lights being too close, I use a 1000 W HPS and have had plants literally touch the blub before showing signs of heat stress. Good air circulation is crucial, and I liked my closet to be windy with a good exhaust fan on 24/7.

Everything I've read says to keep the light as close as you can without causing heat damage but most grow setup pics I've seen on RIU have the lights much farther away than I keep mine. I think that the light may be too intense and possibly causing slow growth so I moved the light up about 6 inches.

I only water every 5-7 days but I was foliar feeding every other day there for a couple of weeks so I bet the combination of the two was a little bit overkill.
I use Tiger Bloom (NPK 2-8-4) nutes and have only used it twice in the last 4 weeks, 3 days ago being the most recent time which I went half strength. The PF plant which had the leaves that were turning purple is greening up again. I believe that would be due to the high amount of P in the nutes.

Since I almost starved them to death I was planning on watering with nutes at the next feeding but you think I should go with plain water this time around? I expect that I have another 6-7 weeks before harvest. I want to make sure that I give them the proper nutes without over doing it. Is using nutes every other watering adequate or should I follow the directions on the bottle and use nutes with every watering?

IGLAW, CG- Thanks for your help.

corngrower said:

Having overfed plants and killed nearly all of them, I think that looks like too many nutrients. If the leaves near the top look like they are lacking nitrogen (lime green, curled, old, stunted), as opposed to the lower fan leaves (they SHOULD be fading in color), it is over fert. I learned the hard way, and after leaving a WW mother under an 60w bulb and watering it every week with Ph plain water, it was back from the near-dead. The tops of the plants reflect was in going on with the roots, so an unhappy top conopy usually means unahappy roots. If ph is right where it should be, then I would give plain water for a few feedings. If over fert is the problem, then the excess salts and whatnot will drain, and what is still available in the root medium will be enought to sustain new growth for a while. You will see the leaves raise and the lime-green color will go away. Under and HPS, lime green or overfertilizing can look like pale green of flowering. Be sure to test the runn-off from your feedings too, not just the water you feed with. A low pH in the drainage water means a high buildup of salts (I think?), which means none are being absorbed. Adjusting pH can fix this problem, but always be safe a clean the medium to help the roots. And as for the lights being too close, I use a 1000 W HPS and have had plants literally touch the blub before showing signs of heat stress. Good air circulation is crucial, and I liked my closet to be windy with a good exhaust fan on 24/7.

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Very interesting comments. I can confirm that "A low pH in the drainage water means a high buildup of salts". Or at least thats one possible cause for low PH. But its the first time I've heard of lime green leaves being caused by overfeeding. jrp did not feed at all at the end of veg and has only fed twice in the last 4 weeks. My lime green plant was a mom in veg that I barely fed enough to keep her green and then when i started to flower her, she immediately started to turn lime green with barely any feeding at all. Just a little organic (.01-.3-.7). But jrp does have some burnt tips. My tips are all fine except for a few leaves which seem to be drying out and curling up, indicating a severe K def. I can say that I'm sure there's a very fine line between having too much of any 2 macros (say N and P) and lack of the third (in my case K). Did i spit that out right? Its early....
For the record...my vote is for feeding every OTHER watering. Its easier to fix a deficiency than to fix an over fertilization. You'll just have to pay close attention to what your plant is telling you. FF feeding schedule is very generalized. Take into consideration plant size and pot size. Small medium or large? I would call your plants small jrp.
If my plant is overfed (gulp) I'm going to really F it up because I'm going to hit it with some (3-2-6) trying to correct a K def. We'll see.
Thanks corngrower, and good luck jrp.

Today I moved 3 more plants into the flowering room. The other 3 will stay in the veg chamber until harvest which is 6-7 weeks away. I plan on using Uncle Ben's topping technique again, I am very pleased with the way it works. My PF plant, which started as a clone, has 30 buds sites! The other 2 have 15 bud sites (half will probably be popcorn). Keep in mind that those plants vegged almost 2 months and were topped twice during that time period. That's all folks, time to get to work. Have a good weekend! OUT!

itsgrowinglikeaweed said:

I have a flowering plant fading out turning yellow too. Same color as yours. It started almost immediately after switching to 12/12. I'm quite sure it is the result of a potassium def. I have added N and P to my flowering soilmix in the form of bone meal(6-9-0) and bat guano(0-5-0). Add them together and I have (6-14-0). Obviously i need some K.The sativa dominates I was growing didn't mind but the much hungrier indicas I'm flowering now need more K for sure.

My Ph is perf 6.7 There should be plenty of N and P available. I have watered with epsom salts to provide S and Mg. There is lime in my mix for PH buffering and to provide Calcium and other trace elements. The only thing left is K.

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I've been researching the ingredients that are in the soil that I'm using to make sure that it contains an adequate amount of NPK sources and trace minerals. Using this website http://www.geocities.com/nonamuss/organic_npk.html I determined that G&B soil is almost perfect but it lacks a good source of K. I think that if I add one of the following then G&B soil would be more well rounded. The question is, how do I figure out how much to mix into the soil?

Minerals
source NPK comments
Greensand 0 - 1.5 - 7 Mined from old ocean deposits; used as soil conditioner; high in iron, magnesium, and silica - 32 ace minerals in all.
Wood Ashes 0 - 1.5 - 7 Very fast acting and highly alkaline (usually used to raise pH). Contains many micronutrients.
Crushed Granite 0 - 0 - 5 Contains 67% silicas and 19 trace minerals. Slow release over a long period of time.

I like your investigative reasoning here.
Thats exactly what I've been looking into. K sources. Greensand sounds great but its too slow release for containers IMO better for ourdoor gardens. I like the wood ash. But I dont really have access to any. (damn concrete jungle!)
Anyway how much to use is exactly the right question. Its a matter of tablespoons per gallon of soil. If I HAD some ash I would add some to a pot of soil and run water thru it and test the runoff Ph and try to get some idea of how much to use that way.
The way i figure it...because the ash is alkaline, I could reduce the amount of lime that i use to keep my ph up (my soil contains a good amount of peat moss which becomes acidic of time) and instead use the ash to maintain PH. And both the lime and the ash are sources of trace elements so thats a wash.
So either find a soil mix recipe with wood ash in it, or trial and error it to find the amount. Thats what I've been thinking. In the mean time I''m going with FF hydroponic GrowbBig (3-2-6). The only K heavy thing I have.
I've got a bunch of super soil recipies but they dont use potash.?
Still looking....
Anyway, im going to know for sure soon if it is indeed K that im lacking.
I would think you should be ok with your Tiger bloom but some addition K in the soil to balance things out, I agree, is a good idea.
By the way one of my clones rooted after 4 weeks! Finally...geez. I think its just the strain. It has taken 4 weeks to root all 3 times I was successful and using 3 different methods.
Peace........
Check out this recipe page. To see the proportions of organic materials that folks build soil with. > http://www.onlinepot.org/grow/goodsoil.htm

K def. confirmed! My lime green plants have improved since feeding them some potassium (3-2-6).
Ok, the mother I'm flowering which has turned lime green hasn't improved much (yet) but It's not getting worse like it was. And the clone of that plant which was turning lime green too is now dark green again! So I'm satisfied that it was indeed a K def.

itsgrowinglikeaweed said:

K def. confirmed! My lime green plants have improved since feeding them some potassium (3-2-6).
Ok, the mother I'm flowering which has turned lime green hasn't improved much (yet) but It's not getting worse like it was. And the clone of that plant which was turning lime green too is now dark green again! So I'm satisfied that it was indeed a K def.

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Jolly good work Watson!LOL. That sounds like the exact same issue I'm having, my clones are all lime green too but hopefully that will all come to an end soon.

I got a new plan.

FYI, so the rest of the story makes sense, I’ve labeled my plants by the generation as they enter the flower room. So right now I have generations 1 & 2 in the flower room and generation 3 in the veg areas. I’ve decided to try an experiment with my 3rd generation of plants. I’ve noticed that when I water Gen’s 1 & 2 it takes a long time for the soil to dry up, usually 6-7 days. I would like to be able to water twice a week so I added a layer of river rock to the bottom of the pots for Gen 3 which got transplanted this morning. I’ve also decided to follow the feeding schedule for the entire Fox Farms line up and I’ll be supplementing with Cal/Mag/Iron and B1. I’m going to alternate the nutes and supplements every other watering which is why I’d like to be able to water twice a week and still stick to the FF feeding schedule. I plan on using the FF feeding schedule for Gen’s 1 & 2 moving forward as well but gradually since there’s nothing I can do at this point to improve their draining ability. I’ve also decided to keep a running log on everything that goes in or on the plants so I can keep track if I fuck it up. Let me know what you think. All comments are welcome. I’d like to know if anyone has tried a feeding schedule like I described above and how it worked, or didn’t work for them.

Fox Farms Feeding Schedule: http://foxfarmfertilizer.com/soilfeed.pdf

After what I've learned about how these plants prefer dryness to wetness I'm going to have to say that I dont think you want to be watering them twice a week. Even in really good draining soil.
I use to do the rocks on the bottom thing but I dont anymore. More than anything it just takes away from the volume of usable plant medium and makes the pot heavy. I've read that depending on the size and shape of the rocks it can actually hinder drainage and/or accumulate sediment.
What you want to do is ammend your G@B soil with worm castings, perlite, and vermiculite or any combo of the three to make light, airy, good draining soil. The rocks on the bottom trick isn't going to make much of a drainage difference.
You can add the micros (cl,mg,fe+) right along with your FF nutes. FF every week and add the micros every other or even every third(they are MICROS) Micro deficiencies are much more common with hydro. Soil growers should not often encounter a micro nutrient def. But it usually is cal or mag if anything so...
I think the 6-7 days you say it takes to dry out is perfect. Once a week makes it easy. K.I.S.S.
I keep a fairy detailed written journal of my growings on. Definitely helps.
Also...IDK about using B1 in flower?? what is this cal mag iron b1 multivitamin you have lol?

itsgrowinglikeaweed said:

The rocks on the bottom trick isn't going to make much of a drainage difference.

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Damn, I thought that I was onto something.

itsgrowinglikeaweed said:

FF every week and add the micros every other or even every third(they are MICROS)

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Previously you said it would be best to use nutes every other watering which for me would be everyother week if I only water once a week. I want to use the nutes at every watering but I am terrified that I'll get PH problems again. I'm confused......

itsgrowinglikeaweed said:

IDK about using B1 in flower?? what is this cal mag iron b1 multivitamin you have lol?

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No B1 during flower? why not?

I got the Botanicare Cal/Mag which has iron and obviously calcium and magnesium. The B1 is a separate product.

I'm excited to try the entire FF line up (I want huge IGLAW buds) and hope that I'm able to stick to the feeding schedule without any problems.