Good ole' trial & error... On the error side again; What went wrong with this soil batch?

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
Which soil test did you have done by Logan Labs? Can you post them, especially if they contain results for soil organic matter, CEC, and EC (electrical conductivity)?

Do you know WHAT is represented by the Soil Savvy results? Do the "target" ranges reflect nutrient requirements for cannabis plants grown in potted containers (assuming that's how you're growing)?
It's funny how you diligently defend the Mehlich 3/saturated paste test!!! At best, it is a educated guess through a mathematical equation= Solve for base saturation ratios. How do you know exactly what is locked out through the Mehlich 3/Saturated paste test? How do you know that only 10% of shown phosphorus is available? It's a bunch of guessing. The more that you argue about the "Soil Savvy" test being bunk, the dumber you look!
 

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
Well I took a stab at making some tweaks for the next time; I took out a modest amount from each pot and replace it's volume with a mix where all I included was more perlite (chunky and normal), ewc, and more ancient forest (humus) along with a good dose of biochar (hoping it 'sucks up' some of the excesses and makes them slow release).

Since I had rock phosphate and bone meal on hand to use for phos sources I used those. And since the N was high - but not as high as the PK and other values - I figured I could take on a little N from the bone meal since that soil was used for 1 batch already and with the cutting of the mix with this new material I was hoping it'd be closer in the overall ratio with the others - for better or worse.

Then each pot got dumped and mixed with its replacement volume of this mix-in - and after the next batch I'll probably submit a new sample based on the after-2-runs state of things... I can tell it's fluffier mix now since I had a good amount of 'extra' soil left over once everything was put back together and in the smart pots. I'll have to see what my ph is looking like next - I have a good ph pen so I'll be trying both a direct soil and slurry test - was a little worried about the biochar raising things.

Next steps is to refresh the soil life - with mammoth P this time around which should further help on the phos shortfall...
 
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waktoo

Well-Known Member
It's funny how you diligently defend the Mehlich 3/saturated paste test!!! At best, it is a educated guess through a mathematical equation= Solve for base saturation ratios. How do you know exactly what is locked out through the Mehlich 3/Saturated paste test? How do you know that only 10% of shown phosphorus is available? It's a bunch of guessing. The more that you argue about the "Soil Savvy" test being bunk, the dumber you look!
OK.

First off, Mehlich 3 is a soil testing method, not a soil test. Companies that offer it test base saturation (CEC, sometimes called a "basic soil test") and soil solution (saturated paste) separately. To effectively trouble shoot toxicity/deficiency issues, you need to have the results separate, especially in potted containers, because the soil solution is the source for what's contained on the cation exchange capacity. Toxicity issues will shine like a bright beacon on a saturated paste report. So will deficiencies. The Mehlich 3 base saturation test tells you what's "locked out" just like the Soil Savy test. Base saturation tests not only tell what's "exchangeable" and held by the soil's Cation Exchange Capacity, it also tells what is held by the soil organic matter. This is why anions like Phosphates, Sulfur, and Boron are reported on those tests. Because soil organic matter, specifically the parts of it that lay on the soil solution boundary and are most subject to microbial degradation, has the ability to hold on to both cations AND anions. I will revisit this point in a moment.

If you've only been getting one "Mehlich 3" soil test done to figure out what's wrong with your soil, you're only getting half the picture. If you've been sending in samples to testing companies offering such and providing material for "soilless mixes" instead of telling them that it was potting soil (and sending more "mass") in the "special instructions" box/portion of their form, you're going to get very skewed and inaccurate results.

On to the Soil Savy test. The results provided combine what is held by the soil's base saturation (CEC and SOM) and what is carried in the soil solution. The terms "available" and "locked up" used by the Soil Savvy folks are thrown about a bit haphazardly, IMO, and seem to have led to some confusion for several growers new to soil testing. "Available" means soluble, in ionic form, and immediately plant available. The largest source for plant available nutrients is the soil solution. "Available" also means exchangeable from the soil colloid, which holds cations, and floats around within the soil solution. As previously mentioned, SOM has the ability to hold both cations and anions by electrostatic charge, just like cations to the soil "CEC". This is what is extracted with the SS test, just like the M3 base saturation/"standard soil test", and what the SS test folks mean when they say "locked out".

What I've been witnessing is blades getting soil tests done, not understanding what soil tests they're getting or what the results actually represent, most likely sending in the wrong amount of material for the wrong kind of test, and then trying to make adjustments by adding more organic matter to their soil mixes in order to "water down" this or that, especially more compost/SPM. This is where I'm guessing the extremely high levels of P are coming from on many of the soil tests that I'm seeing. You know what the funny thing about Phosphates? They're highly insoluble due to their high valence and reactive tendencies. So they are going to bind up micronutrients, cations, and especially micronutrients, which again will require microbial degradation to solubilize the individual ions. I have seen you allude to this, so props for that.

With the SS test, you're not getting ANY information concerning SOM content, Cation Exchange Capacity, or Electrical Conductivity. It combines what's "available" in by both soil phases, so you can't discern whether or not your experiencing toxicity issues, deficiencies, plenty of minerals that are there but "locked out" by too much SOM. What's more your basing your action of remedy upon a suggested "target range" for some mystery agriculture crop/turf application, not growing cannabis in containers. You need as many details as possible to truly ascertain what's happening chemically in the soil, which is why I suggest having one's irrigation water tested when I see high sodium levels show up on soil tests.

This is why I think the M3 tests are better than the SS test. They provide more comprehensive and useful information for troubleshooting "problems". Knowing what's in the soil solution separate from the base saturation is inherently more important for those growing in potted containers. You don't get that with the SS test...











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MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
OK.

First off, Mehlich 3 is a soil testing method, not a soil test. Companies that offer it test base saturation (CEC, sometimes called a "basic soil test") and soil solution (saturated paste) separately. To effectively trouble shoot toxicity/deficiency issues, you need to have the results separate, especially in potted containers, because the soil solution is the source for what's contained on the cation exchange capacity. Toxicity issues will shine like a bright beacon on a saturated paste report. So will deficiencies. The Mehlich 3 base saturation test tells you what's "locked out" just like the Soil Savy test. Base saturation tests not only tell what's "exchangeable" and held by the soil's Cation Exchange Capacity, it also tells what is held by the soil organic matter. This is why anions like Phosphates, Sulfur, and Boron are reported on those tests. Because soil organic matter, specifically the parts of it that lay on the soil solution boundary and are most subject to microbial degradation, has the ability to hold on to both cations AND anions. I will revisit this point in a moment.

If you've only been getting one "Mehlich 3" soil test done to figure out what's wrong with your soil, you're only getting half the picture. If you've been sending in samples to testing companies offering such and providing material for "soilless mixes" instead of telling them that it was potting soil (and sending more "mass") in the "special instructions" box/portion of their form, you're going to get very skewed and inaccurate results.

On to the Soil Savy test. The results provided combine what is held by the soil's base saturation (CEC and SOM) and what is carried in the soil solution. The terms "available" and "locked up" used by the Soil Savvy folks are thrown about a bit haphazardly, IMO, and seem to have led to some confusion for several growers new to soil testing. "Available" means soluble, in ionic form, and immediately plant available. The largest source for plant available nutrients is the soil solution. "Available" also means exchangeable from the soil colloid, which holds cations, and floats around within the soil solution. As previously mentioned, SOM has the ability to hold both cations and anions by electrostatic charge, just like cations to the soil "CEC". This is what is extracted with the SS test, just like the M3 base saturation/"standard soil test", and what the SS test folks mean when they say "locked out".

What I've been witnessing is blades getting soil tests done, not understanding what soil tests they're getting or what the results actually represent, most likely sending in the wrong amount of material for the wrong kind of test, and then trying to make adjustments by adding more organic matter to their soil mixes in order to "water down" this or that, especially more compost/SPM. This is where I'm guessing the extremely high levels of P are coming from on many of the soil tests that I'm seeing. You know what the funny thing about Phosphates? They're highly insoluble due to their high valence and reactive tendencies. So they are going to bind up micronutrients, cations, and especially micronutrients, which again will require microbial degradation to solubilize the individual ions. I have seen you allude to this, so props for that.

With the SS test, you're not getting ANY information concerning SOM content, Cation Exchange Capacity, or Electrical Conductivity. It combines what's "available" in by both soil phases, so you can't discern whether or not your experiencing toxicity issues, deficiencies, plenty of minerals that are there but "locked out" by too much SOM. What's more your basing your action of remedy upon a suggested "target range" for some mystery agriculture crop/turf application, not growing cannabis in containers. You need as many details as possible to truly ascertain what's happening chemically in the soil, which is why I suggest having one's irrigation water tested when I see high sodium levels show up on soil tests.

This is why I think the M3 tests are better than the SS test. They provide more comprehensive and useful information for troubleshooting "problems". Knowing what's in the soil solution separate from the base saturation is inherently more important for those growing in potted containers. You don't get that with the SS test...

.
I ran into people with big egos like yours. The smarter they try to prove to be, the more I worry about them! I have a funny story. I went to Grass City last Febuary with my Mehlich 3 test results and you had no fucking clue to what was going on! Why do you insist on acting like you are a fucking brain child? Anyone who reads this linked thread will see how little that you actually know about Mehlich 3 testing, you couldn't even tell me that my micros were suffering! Maybe you think that a micro def is not a big deal? That would prove my point 100%. After getting zero help from people on RIU and GrassCity, I started using Soil Savvy and I figured out what my problem was. No thanks to you, seriously!
https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/mehlich-3-soil-testing.1489052/
 

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
What this demonstrates to me is that quite simply put: no one has put a product on the market that makes a simple assessment available, with crop specificity in mind. Folks who are looking for a simple action plan don't want to have to gain a comprehensive understanding of the underlying science - we just want actionable outcomes. I thought the Soil Savvy might have been aiming to fit that need, but it sounds from this debate like it's just another variant of a test that doesn't give the mere mortals our simple answers. ;-)

Who's got the pocketbooks to launch a product? Seems like it could be a money maker! I've blown my wad twice on tests that still don't really break it down to a simple "go do this to make it better"...
 

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
And to re-iterate, the prior batch was my first 'organic/soil' attempt and though the quantity wasn't there, it was by far the best quality yet. Though I did see some odd signs of either a def or toxicity towards the end, I would still say it was a good run. My test results were from the "before" since I had extra soil prepared initially - and after this next try I'll do an after but that will be against the version of the soil that I just tweaked with more organic material and aeration attempting to dilute what seemed like a hot mix. I'd be curious to go back to a Logan test with exact same "before" and compare 1:1 wit the Soil Savvy for comparison sake... Hmmmm....
 

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
So back to my mix... After this dilution and adding biochar I was worried about the resulting pH but I just used a soil pen (bluelab, not one of those bi-metal deals) and it seems like I'm in the 6.9-7.1 range across 3 pots I checked. A slurry mix of RO water and soil gave 7.0 and drifted up to 7.1 eventually. I'm guessing most of the Ca from my mix was from the gypsum/dolo lime combo and the dolo must be buffering/holding me in the 7 range since if I'm not mistaken that's it main role otherwise I could have used all gypsum.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I'm guessing most of the Ca from my mix was from the gypsum/dolo lime combo and the dolo must be buffering/holding me in the 7 range since if I'm not mistaken that's it main role otherwise I could have used all gypsum.
Gypsum could probably be left out, I don't use it. If you are using dolomite lime, you are missing out on the trace/micros that other rock dusts will give you like basalt and glacial rock dust. Oyster shell flour, basalt, and glacial rock dust instead of dolomite and gypsum.

Use these very sparingly! You can get it for 1/2 price of Build A Soil
Mn sulfate-
https://www.amazon.com/Manganese-Sulfate-Monohydrate-32-Pound/dp/B004RXD1HK/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1534200405&sr=8-5&keywords=mn+sulfate

Zinc sulfate-
https://www.amazon.com/Zinc-Sulfate-Monohydrate-35-5-Pound/dp/B00T6I1SKS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1534200445&sr=8-1&keywords=zinc+sulfate+fertilizer

Borax- you can find this at Wal-Mart
https://www.amazon.com/Borax-Laundry-Booster-Powder-Pounds/dp/B018HUUK40/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1534200458&sr=8-5&keywords=borax
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
What this demonstrates to me is that quite simply put: no one has put a product on the market that makes a simple assessment available, with crop specificity in mind. Folks who are looking for a simple action plan don't want to have to gain a comprehensive understanding of the underlying science - we just want actionable outcomes. I thought the Soil Savvy might have been aiming to fit that need, but it sounds from this debate like it's just another variant of a test that doesn't give the mere mortals our simple answers. ;-)

Who's got the pocketbooks to launch a product? Seems like it could be a money maker! I've blown my wad twice on tests that still don't really break it down to a simple "go do this to make it better"...
What you need to do is watch out for people that demand that you do things exactly the same way that they do!!! I'll tell you that I have brain damage and I am constantly wrong. So, don't take my word for gold! I merely make suggestion and don't get mad if you don't listen.. Watch out for people that get easily offended, they are leading you in the wrong direction!!!
 

waktoo

Well-Known Member
I ran into people with big egos like yours. The smarter they try to prove to be, the more I worry about them! I have a funny story. I went to Grass City last Febuary with my Mehlich 3 test results and you had no fucking clue to what was going on! Why do you insist on acting like you are a fucking brain child? Anyone who reads this linked thread will see how little that you actually know about Mehlich 3 testing, you couldn't even tell me that my micros were suffering! Maybe you think that a micro def is not a big deal? That would prove my point 100%. After getting zero help from people on RIU and GrassCity, I started using Soil Savvy and I figured out what my problem was. No thanks to you, seriously!
https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/mehlich-3-soil-testing.1489052/
I did try to help you here, by offering a different perspective as to why you might be seeing trace element "deficiencies" on your soil report(s). I'm assuming you didn't read it.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/soil-test-results.965399/page-4#post-14303050

It's a publication from an agriculture university dealing with dissolved mineral content of irrigation water used for container production of plants, and how it might affect nutrient availability. It has a section that deals with water alkalinity. Yours is high due to pH and bicarbonate levels.

Below find more information from a company that provides soil/plant tissue analysis. It also address nutrient adsorption issues due to high water alkalinity in container production of plants. Yours is high due to pH and bicarbonate levels.

Also, a link to another article by an ag' university dealing with water pH and alkalinity. It specifically address deficiencies in small containers caused by high pH/alkalinity...

https://ag.umass.edu/greenhouse-floriculture/fact-sheets/water-quality-ph-alkalinity

My premise is this...

Although you're seeing very low micro' levels on your soil tests, it doesn't mean it's not there, or "deficient" in the soil. I think that your high bicarbonate well water is truly "locking out" trace elements, forming insoluble compounds that will not show up on any soil test. Soil tests only reveal what is "available", which means soluble or exchangeable.

I remember reading a post of yours in one of these test related threads somewhere. You commented that you've been having issues with your grow for three years, or something along those lines. If the water that you're currently using is a common denominator during that time, you may want to consider it to be the source of your issues.

I think you might find utilizing a bit of citric acid to neutralize the bicarbonate in your well water will work wonders after a bit of time. Other than the bicarbonate levels, your water is tip-top.
 

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MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I did try to help you here, by offering a different perspective as to why you might be seeing trace element "deficiencies" on your soil report(s). I'm assuming you didn't read it.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/soil-test-results.965399/page-4#post-14303050
This reply is from June, my original post was from February. You didn't mention micro def until I've been talking about since May! You show up late to a thread and want to take glory for something that has been figured out already. I don't know who you are trying to impress, but every time that I talk to you I have more reason to not like you! Actually, you want to know the irony. Last May, I switched to the "Soil Savvy" test and it was blatantly obvious what the problem was. You are trying to take credit for some info that I got from a Soil Savvy test, the same test you are trying to discredit! You remind me of my retarded brother. He will tell everyone the he was in the Army(like me) and he was a state champion track/cross country runner(like older brother). He loves to take credit for shit he didn't do! You remind me so much of him!!!

Yeah, please tell me to have my water tested again!!! Your problem was your water. So, you think that EVERYONE's problem is going to be exactly the same as yours! I have a R/O water filter! I keep up with the maintenance and swap filters often.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I was very angry and depressed from February-May because I really didn't understand what I was doing wrong. I went to grasscity and felt like Wakatoo and Wetdog really were not that much help to me and actually felt like they were making things worse! Now, Wackatoo is trying to take credit for things that I figured out on my own? Fuck off dude!!!
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
Although you're seeing very low micro' levels on your soil tests, it doesn't mean it's not there, or "deficient" in the soil. I think that your high bicarbonate well water is truly "locking out" trace elements, forming insoluble compounds that will not show up on any soil test. Soil tests only reveal what is "available", which means soluble or exchangeable.
So, you go from taking credit for me figuring out my micro def problem to telling me that the test results are skewed? People should be warned about you!!! You are like a false prophet that is going to lead all of these kids to hell! I know what a dumb-ass looks like and sounds like, you are not fooling me!

Maybe you are the one that doesn't listen to people. How many times do I have to tell you that I have a R/O water filter. Plus, I had my water tested! This is the water BEFORE it gets filtered.
DSC00835.JPG

From what I am reading, bicarbonates only affect the Ph and any issues that you have from it are from Ph issues.
http://www.cannagardening.com/ph_acidity
 

waktoo

Well-Known Member
So, you go from taking credit for me figuring out my micro def problem to telling me that the test results are skewed? People should be warned about you!!! You are like a false prophet that is going to lead all of these kids to hell! I know what a dumb-ass looks like and sounds like, you are not fooling me!

Maybe you are the one that doesn't listen to people. How many times do I have to tell you that I have a R/O water filter. Plus, I had my water tested! This is the water BEFORE it gets filtered.
View attachment 4180978

From what I am reading, bicarbonates only affect the Ph and any issues that you have from it are from Ph issues.
http://www.cannagardening.com/ph_acidity
OK man.

Good luck...
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
Here I am using oyster shell flour and bicarbonates from my tap water to raise the Ph from 5.5 to 6.4! It took 6 weeks but the Ph of my latest batch of soil is 6.4... So, your warning to the world is that there is CaCo in tap water? I am working with Peat and an acidic soil. So, your warnings that bicarbonates are in my water are fucking useless!

http://www.cannagardening.com/ph_acidity
The buffering capacity and the substrate’s acidity depend on its composition and freshness. The presence of organic material, calcium and bicarbonate generally determine the pH. Clay always contains calcium carbonate and has a relatively high pH value which is difficult to change, while peat and sandy soils are acidic[6].

DSC01014.JPG

I plan on using R/O water again after the soil has aged.
 

OPfarmer

Well-Known Member
Wow, got a fucking headache from reading this thread.

It ain't rocket science, something seems funny with that lab... ditch them

Yes grow some lettuce see how it does.
Your asking for trouble thinking you are going to add boron don't do it!

KISS...keep it simple stupid... Base of peat moss perlite and chuncky coir maybe some Compost and worm castings, maybe some alfalfa, kelp, bone meal in cuncks in the pot. sure charge some biochar with some natural balanced NPK, maybe some oyster shell or dolomite lime, crab shell good too.
Use a variety of mellow shit. Azomite never hurts either. don't forget mycos and bacteria!

Seriously, screw the lab, get growing some test veggie make it a hobby, plant seeds. Think and observe for yourself
Before you know it you can smoke a fat one and the soil and plants will speak too you. Hehehe
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
Wow, got a fucking headache from reading this thread.
Because everyone is stupid and you are smart... Here we go again with an inflated ego!!! "Just take those test results and throw them out the window and I'll tell you what is wrong". That is exactly the B.S statement that has me trolling people like you! Do you claim to know what is going on with his soil better than a soil test? Fucking brilliant!!! It makes me want to hit the ignore button immediately! I'm not walking down a dark alley with you!
 
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