i’ll not buy another led until..

i’d be willing to pay 10-20% extra to cover the build and shipping costs of bigger heatsinks

  • yes

    Votes: 14 46.7%

  • no

    Votes: 16 53.3%
  • Total voters
    30
VincenzioVonHook

VincenzioVonHook

Well-Known Member
Another thing to consider. No matter how big your heatsinks are, they will still reach saturation point and steady out unless you have adequate airflow anyway.

I added a large heatsink to a quantum board and it took a few hours longer to reach saturation point. Instead of taking 2 hours to reach 50c, it took 6 hours. After saturation is reached you still need to actively cool the heatsink and exhaust the sir anyway, so why not focus on airflow instead of expensive heatsinks?

Funny thing is a $10 fan did more than the $60 heatsink anyway, and combined provided the best results.
 
crimsonecho

crimsonecho

Well-Known Member
so to bring it around to the topic once again the votes are 5 yes to 10 no. so i guess there are many people who does give a fuck about the lifespan of their expensive fixtures and want better thermal management. and considering the question is itself is may be a little flawed as better thermal management can be achieved by many means, though heatsink upgrades were the easiest route to take in my mind, i’m guessing a lot of people are bothered by how hot their fixtures run.

just a couple of hours ago @hotrodharley was posting info about his fixture which rans at scalding temps even with fans pointed on if i remember it correctly.

migros ir camera readings show that scalding hot temps on the heatsinks as well.

120F is scalding hot. so besides shortening the lifespan of these diodes these temps can also cause bodily harm for some people. i thought we passed this phase of grow lights when a lot of people abandoned hids and moved to leds. if the heatsink is scalding hot, the diodes are almost definitely too hot.

HippieDudeRon said:
They are very subjective adjectives. Case and point 50C Tc.... not heatsink temp, is cool as hell to an LED. This is not an opinion but the actual data behind it. It is hot to touch as a human. But we don't matter to LEDs.
You can go to any manufacture of the LEDs(Samsung, Osram, Cree, Lumileds...) and get the LM80 and tm21 reports that show thousand of hours of testing and multiple samples of it.
36,000 to 50,000 hrs being pretty standardized lm80 lives for high and mid power leds at 85C. 50C extending that substantially. This can be gotten from the LM80 reports from a third party testing facility.

Yes Migro did his test. That is one data point. . Youre are calling out companies and acting like shit hit the fan over one test, that doesn't show anything out of the norm.

Back to my point, how "hot" are your lights and diodes running? Measure it.
Click to expand...
its not hot to touch its dangerous to touch. its not about migros video its about me buying plug and play for the first time and realizing this shit was on the fan already. i dont have a problem with manufacturer data the problem is heatsink temps are hitting 50 so what are the temps on the actual diodes would you like to contribute by taking these measurements?

VincenzioVonHook said:
The crux of the matter is more providing adequate airflow regardless of the light purchased.

Airflow is paramount, and the lights are designed to run in an enclosure that removes enough stagnant warm air to begin with.

If you would rather pay an extra hundred or two instead of running a $10 fan and exhausting enough air, there lies your problem plain and simple..1000w of heat is 1000w of heat. I just run a 6" fan blowing across the tent a few inches below the light and have my carbon filter a cm from my driver and board, and the warm air is removed from the tent leaving the light cool to touch.

It seems like you are trying to counteract bad airflow with another $100-$200 worth of heatsinks when simple airflow will do the job.

You will find 99% of people would rather spend a few dollars to set up proper air exchange Instead of paying an extra $100-$200 on manufacturer heatsinks.

Why wait on manufacturers to provide you with a cost ineffective method of heat removal when a simple fan and appropriately mounted exhaust system will do the same job? Just seems like you want to bitch about this forever and wait for a manufacturer to fix something you could have already fixed by running adequate airflow to begin with.

If it's actually about absolute temps from the box, why not push manufacturers to include a $10 fan instead of a $100 heatsink? It does the same job and doesn't cost everyone another 10-20% of their budget.
Click to expand...
again there are many ways to achieve proper thermal management. this is not about bad air exchange. i got adequate exhaust in my tents. more than adequate to be exact. complete air exchance 2 times per minute or something. if i have to hang fans on top of my lights then whats the point. thats exactly what i meant by the way, these lights should run cool to the touch with just exhaust fan running. do yours?
 
crimsonecho

crimsonecho

Well-Known Member
VincenzioVonHook said:
Another thing to consider. No matter how big your heatsinks are, they will still reach saturation point and steady out unless you have adequate airflow anyway.

I added a large heatsink to a quantum board and it took a few hours longer to reach saturation point. Instead of taking 2 hours to reach 50c, it took 6 hours. After saturation is reached you still need to actively cool the heatsink and exhaust the sir anyway, so why not focus on airflow instead of expensive heatsinks?

Funny thing is a $10 fan did more than the $60 heatsink anyway, and combined provided the best results.
Click to expand...
yeah it will reach saturation but are these heatsinks designed the best way they could have been. the air you pull from underneath the fixture at the bottom of the tent and exhaust from the top usually. when fins are located at the top of these bars there is barely any air moving between the fins to dissipate the heat properly.
 
VincenzioVonHook

VincenzioVonHook

Well-Known Member
crimsonecho said:
so to bring it around to the topic once again the votes are 5 yes to 10 no. so i guess there are many people who does give a fuck about the lifespan of their expensive fixtures and want better thermal management.
Click to expand...
That's a ludicrous argument. We do care about the lifespan and thermals, that's why we provide adequate airflow to begin with in the form of a $10 fan.

The crux of the matter, which you are missing is that the heatsink/fan is just a medium to remove heat. If we are already removing that heat with active airflow, why are you so obsessed with us lowering the lifespan if the light is already cooled by active airflow? You seem to have an obsession with heatsinks over functioning temperature..

A 45c driver is a 45c driver regardless of the cooling medium. Does that make sense yet? Don't get shitty at us because we already have a cheap method of cooling our boards that doesn't require $100 worth of heatsinks.

You are way too obsessed with the medium of cooling over the functionality of the cooling provided. Lower temps are lower temps, regardless of the medium used. Our medium just costs 1/10th or 20th of your suggested medium and does the same job.
 
Last edited:
lusidghost

lusidghost

Well-Known Member
crimsonecho said:
so to bring it around to the topic once again the votes are 5 yes to 10 no. so i guess there are many people who does give a fuck about the lifespan of their expensive fixtures and want better thermal management. and considering the question is itself is may be a little flawed as better thermal management can be achieved by many means, though heatsink upgrades were the easiest route to take in my mind, i’m guessing a lot of people are bothered by how hot their fixtures run.

just a couple of hours ago @hotrodharley was posting info about his fixture which rans at scalding temps even with fans pointed on if i remember it correctly.

migros ir camera readings show that scalding hot temps on the heatsinks as well.

120F is scalding hot. so besides shortening the lifespan of these diodes these temps can also cause bodily harm for some people. i thought we passed this phase of grow lights when a lot of people abandoned hids and moved to leds. if the heatsink is scalding hot, the diodes are almost definitely too hot.



its not hot to touch its dangerous to touch. its not about migros video its about me buying plug and play for the first time and realizing this shit was on the fan already. i dont have a problem with manufacturer data the problem is heatsink temps are hitting 50 so what are the temps on the actual diodes would you like to contribute by taking these measurements?



again there are many ways to achieve proper thermal management. this is not about bad air exchange. i got adequate exhaust in my tents. more than adequate to be exact. complete air exchance 2 times per minute or something. if i have to hang fans on top of my lights then whats the point. thats exactly what i meant by the way, these lights should run cool to the touch with just exhaust fan running. do yours?
Click to expand...
The fan shucks the heat off of the light, and the exhaust sucks the heat out of the grow.
 
MICHI-CAN

MICHI-CAN

Well-Known Member
crimsonecho said:
so to bring it around to the topic once again the votes are 5 yes to 10 no. so i guess there are many people who does give a fuck about the lifespan of their expensive fixtures and want better thermal management. and considering the question is itself is may be a little flawed as better thermal management can be achieved by many means, though heatsink upgrades were the easiest route to take in my mind, i’m guessing a lot of people are bothered by how hot their fixtures run.

just a couple of hours ago @hotrodharley was posting info about his fixture which rans at scalding temps even with fans pointed on if i remember it correctly.

migros ir camera readings show that scalding hot temps on the heatsinks as well.

120F is scalding hot. so besides shortening the lifespan of these diodes these temps can also cause bodily harm for some people. i thought we passed this phase of grow lights when a lot of people abandoned hids and moved to leds. if the heatsink is scalding hot, the diodes are almost definitely too hot.



its not hot to touch its dangerous to touch. its not about migros video its about me buying plug and play for the first time and realizing this shit was on the fan already. i dont have a problem with manufacturer data the problem is heatsink temps are hitting 50 so what are the temps on the actual diodes would you like to contribute by taking these measurements?



again there are many ways to achieve proper thermal management. this is not about bad air exchange. i got adequate exhaust in my tents. more than adequate to be exact. complete air exchance 2 times per minute or something. if i have to hang fans on top of my lights then whats the point. thats exactly what i meant by the way, these lights should run cool to the touch with just exhaust fan running. do yours?
Click to expand...
We all want to be cool. If that is more fans, AC or multiple lights at diminished output. I don't see my $350 a light getting cheaper. I'll continue under 50% output with double the needed watts. At least doubles the life. And keep your stuff clean. As in open if applicable and clean.
 
crimsonecho

crimsonecho

Well-Known Member
VincenzioVonHook said:
That's a ludicrous argument. We do care about the lifespan and thermals, that's why we provide adequate airflow to begin with in the form of a $10 fan.

The crux of the matter, which you are missing is that the heatsink/fan is just a medium to remove heat. If we are already removing that heat with active airflow, why are you so obsessed with us lowering the lifespan of the light is already cool? You seem to have an obsession with heatsinks over functioning temperature..

A 45c driver is a 45c driver regardless of the cooling medium. Does that make sense yet? Don't get shitty at us because we already have a cheap method of cooling our boards that doesn't require $100 worth of heatsinks.
Click to expand...
to be clear i dont really care what you wanna do man. do whatever and know that i dont expect you to do anything. happy with cheap fans? sure hang a fan on top of your fixture to run it cool. thats cool to the touch for sure. lose your vertical space by hanging fans up there, add another moving part that can fail. these are great solutions to make poorly designed fixtures work as they should.
 
crimsonecho

crimsonecho

Well-Known Member
lusidghost said:
The fan shucks the heat off of the light, and the exhaust sucks the heat out of the grow.
Click to expand...
yeah because heatsinks are designed to dissipate heat through their fins which are located on the top. exhausting alone is not very effective so you need extra fans to run it cool. i dont see this as good design. maybe the companies should also send an oscillating fan with their lights at least. because you’ll need them to run their lights properly.
 
MICHI-CAN

MICHI-CAN

Well-Known Member
crimsonecho said:
to be clear i dont really care what you wanna do man. do whatever and know that i dont expect you to do anything. happy with cheap fans? sure hang a fan on top of your fixture to run it cool. thats cool to the touch for sure. lose your vertical space by hanging fans up there, add another moving part that can fail. these are great solutions to make poorly designed fixtures work as they should.
Click to expand...
If in MI I'll give you all the case fans and wiring you'll ever need. You get to learn parallel and sequence.
 
MICHI-CAN

MICHI-CAN

Well-Known Member
crimsonecho said:
yeah because heatsinks are designed to dissipate heat through their fins which are located on the top. exhausting alone is not very effective so you need extra fans to run it cool. i dont see this as good design. maybe the companies should also send an oscillating fan with their lights at least. because you’ll need them to run their lights properly.
Click to expand...
And how many of you heatsinks used thermal paste or quality tape??
 
crimsonecho

crimsonecho

Well-Known Member
MICHI-CAN said:
We all want to be cool. If that is more fans, AC or multiple lights at diminished output. I don't see my $350 a light getting cheaper. I'll continue under 50% output with double the needed watts. At least doubles the life. And keep your stuff clean. As in open if applicable and clean.
Click to expand...
its not gonna get cheaper its gonna stay the same but possibly eliminate the need for dedicated active cooling. again as i said i bought 4 fixtures to run in my 4x4 because i know a single fixture designed for a 4x4 was not gonna run cool enough at 100%. this is not mars hydro stuff i’m talking about either.
 
VincenzioVonHook

VincenzioVonHook

Well-Known Member
crimsonecho said:
to be clear i dont really care what you wanna do man. do whatever and know that i dont expect you to do anything. happy with cheap fans? sure hang a fan on top of your fixture to run it cool. thats cool to the touch for sure. lose your vertical space by hanging fans up there, add another moving part that can fail. these are great solutions to make poorly designed fixtures work as they should.
Click to expand...
As you can continue to advocate for a 20% price increase to do a job we all figured out years ago by providing adequate airflow at a cost effective price point.
 
MICHI-CAN

MICHI-CAN

Well-Known Member
crimsonecho said:
its not gonna get cheaper its gonna stay the same but possibly eliminate the need for dedicated active cooling. again as i said i bought 4 fixtures to run in my 4x4 because i know a single fixture designed for a 4x4 was not gonna run cool enough at 100%. this is not mars hydro stuff i’m talking about either.
Click to expand...
I care not branding. Approach and rectification are of more interest.
 
lusidghost

lusidghost

Well-Known Member
crimsonecho said:
yeah because heatsinks are designed to dissipate heat through their fins which are located on the top. exhausting alone is not very effective so you need extra fans to run it cool. i dont see this as good design. maybe the companies should also send an oscillating fan with their lights at least. because you’ll need them to run their lights properly.
Click to expand...
My computer's heatsink has a big fan on it, and like 20 other exhaust fans to suck the air out of the tiny box. What electronic device is cooled purely by heatsinks?
 
VincenzioVonHook

VincenzioVonHook

Well-Known Member
lusidghost said:
My computer's heatsink has a big fan on it, and like 20 other exhaust fans to suck the air out of the tiny box. What electronic device is cooled purely by heatsinks?
Click to expand...
Was just typing that. Is op going to go around and demand purely passive cooling for everything? Or is it just lights lol.

Heatsinks arent cost or performance effective without active cooling.
 
crimsonecho

crimsonecho

Well-Known Member
VincenzioVonHook said:
As you can continue to advocate for a 20% price increase to do a job we all figured out years ago by providing adequate airflow at a cost effective price point.
Click to expand...
i said 10-20% but whatever its clear you have problems so sure do your thing i really dont care much.

lusidghost said:
My computer's heatsink has a big fan on it, and like 20 other exhaust fans to suck the air out of the tiny box. What electronic device is cooled purely by heatsinks?
Click to expand...
still there will be an exhaust fan running in a tent. so air movement is there. just not pointing a cheap fan to run it cool. what is so hard to understand about that?
 
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